MacKinnon has 150 points in his last 82 games

[The Panther]

I personally think Kucherov and MacKinnon are as good or better than Crosby and Ovechkin. Other than longevity, what do the elder two have over the younger pair?

 

[Offtheboard412]

I personally think Kucherov and MacKinnon are as good or better than Crosby and Ovechkin. Other than longevity, what do the elder two have over the younger pair?

An Art Ross, 3 Harts, 4 Ted Lindsays, 11 Rocket Richards.

 

[daver]

I personally think Kucherov and MacKinnon are as good or better than Crosby and Ovechkin. Other than longevity, what do the elder two have over the younger pair?

The better question is what do they younger pair have over the elder pair?

Art Rosses? Nope 3 to 2
Harts? Nope 6 to 2
Lindsays? Nope 6 to 2
Rockets? Nope 11 to 0
Cup wins? Nope 4 to 3
Conn Smythes? Nope 3 to 0

Crosby is a legitimate #5 player all-time, Ovechkin is knocking on the Top Ten (I like him right next to Jagr),

Are you saying Kucherov and Mac are Top 5ish players all-time?

 

[Acallabeth]

MacKinnon is in phenomenal form
We've seen star players unable to keep up with their own shorter-stretches pace over a full year, but Nate has already proved his historic level last season. Amazing talent.

‘10 Crosby always gets ignored too. That was an awesome year that just missed the Art Ross and was held back in part due to wingers. His best full year 5v5 probably. Like you could argue Jagr was a bit better in some years than ‘06 or ‘14, but it was roughly the same level and you could do the same with years like ‘10 as well.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Crosby 'just missed Art Ross' in 2010. He was soundly behind Ovechkin (whose 1st half of that season was absolutely monstrous) and Sedin before padding his stats with ~10 points in 2 last games of the season against the worst team in the conference IIRC. It wasn't like last year's MacKinnon season when he was at times the scoring leader and bested his Art Ross competition in goals.

 

[22FUTON9]

You go to a Mack/ Kucherov thread and all you see is people trying to discredit/take shots at McDavid using their insane seasons. Really lame tbh.

Mack and Kuch are never going to be considered Crosby-Jagr level, just due to how their careers started, but the past 2,3 years they’ve absolutely dominated around the level of peak Jagr and Crosby.

Just ignoring McDavid, and their PPG lead over #3 (Draisaitl) is just around .2 and their lead in PPG in comparison to the 10th best scorer is around .4 (Marner/Matthews)

These numbers are give or take around the same number as Crosby’s number over Malkin (#2 in PPG) and Sedin (#10) As well as Jagr’s number over Sakic (#3 in PPG) and Modano (#10 in PPG)

The time frame you could argue but I think we could all agree that Jagr’s prime was from around 97/98-00/01 and from Crosby anywhere around 07-13 (unless you’re picking a time frame such as 10/11-12/13, which he played 99 games, the numbers are pretty consistent)

The gap is obviously different but Lemieux/McDavid IMO is just on a higher level offensively than all these guys.

 

[bobholly39]

For what it's worth - past 82 games:

Kucherov - 45 goals, 101 assists, 146 points
MacKinnon - 51 goals, 99 assists, 150 points
McDavid - 33 goals, 101 assists, 134 points

Definitely a decent sized gap.

Next one in line:

Panarin - 52 goals, 68 assists, 120 points

 

[tarheelhockey]

Prime Crosby and prime Jagr were clearly more dominant vs. their peers than prime MacKinnon.

There is no reason to think that Crosby and Jagr, in their primes, aren't separating themselves from the pack as they did during their careers.

Again I think every one would agree with this if we are looking at their entire primes. The consistency of a Crosby or Jagr is what separates them from someone like MacKinnon, and same can be said of McDavid.

But if we are looking only at how MacKinnon is playing right now, he is at that Crosby/Jagr level. The reason he hasn’t completely pulled ahead of all his peers is that there are currently a couple of other guys playing at that same level. That’s not MacKinnon’s fault, it’s just a function of timing.

In other words, Crosby or Jagr wouldn't be pulling away from 2023/2024 McDavid or Kucherov either. They happened not to play their best seasons against that kind of competition. It is what it is.

 

[Toby91ca]

Statistically Jagr had 4 seasons at 121+ which would be better than Sid's 120 in 06-07, but then you throw in the argument of how much more difficult it was to score in the late 90s/early 00s are its not really close.

Do you not realize that 2 of the 4 seasons where Jagr scored more than 121 pts were higher scoring years in the NHL as compared to Crosby's 120pts year?

 

[tfwnogf]

The better question is what do they younger pair have over the elder pair?

Art Rosses? Nope 3 to 2
Harts? Nope 6 to 2
Lindsays? Nope 6 to 2
Rockets? Nope 11 to 0
Cup wins? Nope 4 to 3
Conn Smythes? Nope 3 to 0

Crosby is a legitimate #5 player all-time, Ovechkin is knocking on the Top Ten (I like him right next to Jagr),

Are you saying Kucherov and Mac are Top 5ish players all-time?

The fact that daver of all people is using Ovechkin stats to discredit other players is mind boggling, am I in an alternate universe

Anyway, people can see with their eyeballs that Mack and Kuch have along with McDavid been the best 3 forwards of this current generation, and in the last few years Mack and Kuch have essentially caught up with McDavid in terms of scoring prowess. So I think the gap between them and the OG big 3 in Crosby/Ovi/Malkin is quite close.

What do they have over the elder pair? Well for starters 140 point seasons, 100 assists for Kuch/McDavid and more to come since their careers are far from over.

 

[benfranklin]

You can throw in that argument if you want, it's makes zero sense though.

lol "makes zero sense". We quite literally gave it a name, two names actually Dead Puck or Clutch and Grab Era...

The "Dead Puck Era" is a term used to describe a period in the NHL, roughly from the mid-1990s to the early 2000s, characterized by low-scoring games, defensive dominance, and a general lack of offensive excitement. During this time, the game became much slower and more focused on neutral zone trapping, preventing scoring, and limiting offensive opportunities.

Here are some of the key factors that contributed to the Dead Puck Era:

1. Defensive Systems:​

• Teams started using highly structured and defensive systems, such as the neutral zone trap, which clogged up the middle of the ice and made it difficult for skilled offensive players to generate scoring chances.
• Coaches like Jacques Lemaire and Larry Robinson became known for implementing systems that prioritized defensive play, making it harder for teams to break through and score.

2. Goaltending:​

• Goaltenders became much more dominant in the Dead Puck Era. The rise of elite goaltenders like Martin Brodeur, Dominik Hasek, and Patrick Roy coincided with the era's defensive mindset, which made scoring even harder.
• Equipment also played a role in the era's low scoring. Goaltenders' pads, gloves, and other equipment grew larger, making it more difficult for shooters to score.

3. Rulebook:​

• The rules of the game during this period allowed for more physicality and interference, which slowed down the play and gave defenses more opportunities to stop offensive players.
• Clutch-and-grab tactics became widespread, where defenders would hold or interfere with offensive players, disrupting the flow of the game.

4. Scoring Decline:​

• As a result of the combined focus on defense and goaltending, scoring dropped significantly. In the 1990s, the league saw a steady decline in goals per game, with many teams averaging under 3 goals per game.
• The high-scoring, fast-paced style that characterized the 1980s was replaced by a more conservative, low-scoring brand of hockey.

And then right after the lockout coincidentally Sid's first season (not his fault obviously):

The Decline of the Clutch-and-Grab Era:​

The NHL Lockout of 2004-2005 was a turning point for the league and for the clutch-and-grab era. The league and its players recognized that this style of play had led to a stagnation in the product on the ice, with too many low-scoring games and a lack of offensive excitement. In response to this, several significant rule changes were implemented after the lockout:

• Cracking down on obstruction: The NHL started enforcing stricter penalties for interference, hooking, holding, and other obstruction tactics, making it more difficult for defenders to impede players.
• The introduction of the two-line pass rule: This rule, which had been eliminated in the early 2000s, was reintroduced to help open up the game and encourage longer, more fluid plays, counteracting the neutral-zone trap.
• Increased penalties for holding and hooking: Officials were instructed to call these penalties more strictly, which made it harder for defenders to grab or hold offensive players.
• Larger nets and new goalie equipment regulations: The NHL also took steps to increase scoring opportunities, such as making the nets slightly larger and reducing the size of goaltenders’ equipment to help shooters score more easily.

These changes led to a shift in the game towards a faster, more wide-open style, and helped to end the Clutch-and-Grab Era. The 2005-2006 season and beyond saw an uptick in scoring, as well as a more skill-oriented, entertaining product that appealed to fans and helped modernize the NHL.