MacKinnon has 150 points in his last 82 games

[T REX]

you're misunderstanding the point of the post. I literally say at the beginning the reason he's not unanimaously considered on the crosby/jagr tier is BECAUSE he hasn't played full 82 game seasons. He plays/performs at that tier based on the pace he's played each season but without actually completing/doing it for full seasons is the reason it's not cemented.

in terms of your last question, you're literally on a forum where it's supposed to encourage hypotheticals and discussion, if you can't handle the discussion that includes pace then i dont know what this forum is for. Points per game is literally a stat used to create discussion (e.g. Lemieux's career totals IF he had played the same amount of games as Gretz, etc) for hypotheticals.


my post in here earlier does sort of that, it looks at the last 8 (including this one) seasons to compare

It shouldn't be used to assume that any given player would have achieved a particular number over an 82 game season.

It didn't happen. Injuries are a part of every sport. PPG is completely different then taking that number and trying to say that player X would have done so in 82 games in any given year. It doesn't work like that. That's my point.

It keeps happening at least in part because you’ve got seasons like 2020 and 2021 which were shortened, so you need some other way of representing how everyone played in those seasons. It wouldn’t be very helpful to say 2019 Kucherov > 2020 Draisaitl > 2021 McDavid just because their point totals were 128, 110 and 105 respectively.

The same principle holds when a player gets injured. Does anyone actually think Jamie Benn was the better scorer than Crosby when he won his scoring title?

It doesn't matter. Availability is the best ability. You can't score if you're injured. Having a higher PPG doesn't win you scoring title in the NHL. I'd like the NBA to change theirs to total points scored rather than avg. Playing every game should matter.

 

[olli]

What does this mean? The other poster is claiming Mac would be in the best player in the world discussion vs. a peak Jagr and a peak Crosby i.e. he would be matching them in points and/or PPG.

Do you agree?

It just means I am expressing my love for Crosby’s number 1 fan

 

[psycat]

Sort of like saying Ovechkin lessened the generational impact of Crosby. Kind of, but not really.

McDavid has been the MVP and face of the NHL since he first stepped onto the ice. If anything the contrast between him and other guys whose peaks come and go is exactly what solidifies him as a generational player.

Certainly Ovi have an impact on Crosby's legacy since a strong case can be made that he was better at their respective bests and got the more impressive career resumé to boot. If Ovi wouldn't exist most, if not everyone, would agree Crosby was the clear cut best player in the league for an extended period of time, injuries and all.

In the same vein Jagr, in my opinion, get's shafted for directly trailing Lemieux and Gretzky. Or imagine a world without Gretzky, Lemieux would look(even more) alien.

 

[PuckG]

Unreal player…but as per the HFBoards code of conduct, he plays in front of Makar so we have to deduct some number of points to equate for Makar’s impact. Or wait, is it the other way around?

I don’t even know…

 

[Three On Zero]

The product of a gluten/dairy free diet with a side of Fortnite

 

[tarheelhockey]

It doesn't matter. Availability is the best ability. You can't score if you're injured. Having a higher PPG doesn't win you scoring title in the NHL. I'd like the NBA to change theirs to total points scored rather than avg. Playing every game should matter.

But there still had to be a way to express the level at which the players are performing when they’re on the ice.

There has to be a way to show that a guy who scores 60 points in a lockout shortened 48 game season was playing better hockey than a guy who scored 70 during a full season. Simply saying “availability is the best ability” doesn’t make sense, they can’t be available for games which aren’t being held.

 

[PaulD]

It’s his bad luck that he happened to come into the league at around the same time as McDavid. There was a long stretch of years where anyone putting up this kind of offensive performance would have stood out as the top scoring threat in the world (even if you adjust it for lower scoring and call it say 130 points).

I don't sense any bad luck when I think of Nate Mackinnon.
Mario and Wayne.
Sid and OV
Mack and McDavid ....throw Kuch in there
plenty of spot light to around

 

[Video Nasty]

What 5 seasons did Jagr have that were better than Crosby's 2006-07 or 2013-14? Maybe a few, but not 5.

1994-1995 through 2000-2001 and 2005-2006. That’s eight seasons that are potentially better than any single season Crosby had. Pick and choose a few to take away if you’d like, and you’ll still come up with five.

 

[Regal]

1994-1995 through 2000-2001 and 2005-2006. That’s eight seasons that are potentially better than any single season Crosby had. Pick and choose a few to take away if you’d like, and you’ll still come up with five.

Not if you hold to your idea of not giving credit to missed games. That means ‘97 and ‘00 are out. ‘95, ‘98 and ‘06 aren’t as good relative to the league. ‘01 was heavily influenced by Lemieux’s return. The only 2 that are clearly better are ‘96 and ‘99.

 

[Toby91ca]

1994-1995 through 2000-2001 and 2005-2006. That’s eight seasons that are potentially better than any single season Crosby had. Pick and choose a few to take away if you’d like, and you’ll still come up with five.

I mean you can make that argument, but you can make the opposite argument as well. For example, you could say that Crosby lead the league in scoring by 19.5% in 2013-14, Jagr never had such a dominating lead over #2 in his career, so he has no single season better that that. I wouldn't agree, but there is at least some logic to that.

If you want to use average league scoring and adjust numbers, which is flawed, I find only 3 seasons where Jagr would finish with more points than Crosby did in 2006-07, etc.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

He's the best player in the world for a reason.

 

[Toby91ca]

Not if you hold to your idea of not giving credit to missed games. That means ‘97 and ‘00 are out. ‘95, ‘98 and ‘06 aren’t as good relative to the league. ‘01 was heavily influenced by Lemieux’s return. The only 2 that are clearly better are ‘96 and ‘99.

Agree....'96 and '99 and I'm ok with '01 as well....but don't discount your point about Lemieux

 

[x Tame Impala]

Can we stop pretending that Crosby had even one season that topped any of Jagr’s five best?

eyeroll.gif

 

[Regal]

I mean you can make that argument, but you can make the opposite argument as well. For example, you could say that Crosby lead the league in scoring by 19.5% in 2013-14, Jagr never had such a dominating lead over #2 in his career, so he has no single season better that that. I wouldn't agree, but there is at least some logic to that.

If you want to use average league scoring and adjust numbers, which is flawed, I find only 3 seasons where Jagr would finish with more points than Crosby did in 2006-07, etc.

‘10 Crosby always gets ignored too. That was an awesome year that just missed the Art Ross and was held back in part due to wingers. His best full year 5v5 probably. Like you could argue Jagr was a bit better in some years than ‘06 or ‘14, but it was roughly the same level and you could do the same with years like ‘10 as well.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

What's unreal is the fact a team has a player that just put up 150pts in his last 82 games and he's not even the teams best player.

 

[authentic]

Let's go with his last 82 regular season games:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

PPG - 1.83

Kucherov - 1.79
McDavid - 1.76
Panarin - 1.44
Kaprizov - 1.42
Draisaitl - 1.32
Rantanen - 1.28
Makar - 1.26
Matthews - 1.25
Marner 1.24


Jagr's best 82 game stretch:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

PPG - 1.79

Sakic 1.32
Selanne 1.26
Lindros 1.24
Forsberg 1.23
Fleury 1.22


Crosby's best 82 game stretch:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

PPG 1.70

Malkin 1.25
Stamkos 1.15
St. Louis 1.12
Sedin 1.06
Giroux 1.06
Sedin 1.05

Still so mad Crosby missed all that time. Just about as many points as 12th in points per game in a little over half the games played is something utterly insane, just don’t know how much that type domination would’ve held up if he played all the games. Like was Crosby really a more dominant offensive player at his peak than McDavid? I don’t think so but he was closer to him than people may think and that’s without getting to realize his full potential.

 

[benfranklin]

i remember when avs fans didnt think he had what it takes to be a #1 center. getting a sports psychologist and training with crosby did wonders for him.


nah he'll never be on mcdavids level. he just doesn't see the game as well as mcdavid. that said he's the clear cut 2nd best forwards in the game. he'll likely have a better career than mcdavid for the simple reason that colorado's front office is worlds better than edmontons front office.

The shift key is a modifier key on a keyboard, used to type capital letters and other alternate "upper" characters. When pressed and held down while pressing another key, it allows typing in uppercase or the top character on a key.

 

[benfranklin]

What 5 seasons did Jagr have that were better than Crosby's 2006-07 or 2013-14? Maybe a few, but not 5.

Statistically Jagr had 4 seasons at 121+ which would be better than Sid's 120 in 06-07, but then you throw in the argument of how much more difficult it was to score in the late 90s/early 00s are its not really close.

 

[HockeyFan100]

Meh, doesn't have enough empty net points. Not that impressive.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

what people don't realize is that Mack is definitely on Jagr and Crosby tier right now but isn't regarded due to his lack of full seasons played each year.

take a look. If he had played 82 games the last 10 years he'd be looking at having had 7-8 100+ point seasons. Crosby's only had 6 (yes you could use the same argument about lack of 82 games played per season) but the point is that yes then they are on that same tier.

Mcdavid's had 7 100 point seasons, Jagr with 5, Ovie with 4.

starting from Mcdavid's sophomore year vs Mack's breakout year in 17-18:

Mack: 1.31 ppg = 107 points over 82
Mcdavid: 1.32 = 108 points in 82

18-19'
Mack: 99 pts in 82 games
Mcdavid: 1.32 = 116 in 78 gms

19-20'
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms
Mcdavid: 1.52 = 124 points over 78 gms

20-21'
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms again
Mcdavid: 1.88 ppg = 154 points over 82 gms

21-22
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms again for the THIRD year in a row
Mcdavid: 123 points in 80 gms

22-23
Mack: 1.56 ppg = 128 pts over 82 gms
Mcdavid: 153 points in 82 gms

23-24'
Mack: 140 points in 82 gms
Mcdavid: 1.74 ppg for 142 points over 82 gms

currently:
Mack: 1.92 ppg = 158 pts over 82gms
Mcdavid: 1.0 ppg = 82 pts over 82 gms

so that's 3 straight years of a 111 point pace THEN the year after a 128 point pace and THEN a 140 point pace and now a 158 point pace. That's 6 straight years of 100+ point paces. The guy's earned his inclusion on this tier.

clearly there are years where Mcdavid is far above Mack but he aint slouching and shows he's on the crosby and jagr tier.

You bringing up missed games does 0 for mack when comparing him to crosby. Without missed games crosby at bare minimum has 4 harts 4 art ross 4 lindsays 2 richards and 2 smythes. Making the comparison even more challenging.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Certainly Ovi have an impact on Crosby's legacy since a strong case can be made that he was better at their respective bests and got the more impressive career resumé to boot. If Ovi wouldn't exist most, if not everyone, would agree Crosby was the clear cut best player in the league for an extended period of time, injuries and all.

In the same vein Jagr, in my opinion, get's shafted for directly trailing Lemieux and Gretzky. Or imagine a world without Gretzky, Lemieux would look(even more) alien.

Everybody knows crosby was the best player in the world from 11-17. Ovechkin was the best player from 08-10. But it was close.

 

[daver]

It’s his bad luck that he happened to come into the league at around the same time as McDavid. There was a long stretch of years where anyone putting up this kind of offensive performance would have stood out as the top scoring threat in the world (even if you adjust it for lower scoring and call it say 130 points).

He has had plenty of chances to be beat McDavid besides this recent run. McDavid has not been untouchable like Wayne and Mario other than two seasons; one of which is debatable.

17/18
18/19
19/20
21/22

Yes, he and Kucherov have stepped things up the last two seasons, surprisingly, to a level where McDavid's 22/23 season isn't quite as dazzling.

Prime Crosby and prime Jagr were clearly more dominant vs. their peers than prime MacKinnon.

There is no reason to think that Crosby and Jagr, in their primes, aren't separating themselves from the pack as they did during their careers.

Statistically Jagr had 4 seasons at 121+ which would be better than Sid's 120 in 06-07, but then you throw in the argument of how much more difficult it was to score in the late 90s/early 00s are its not really close.

You can throw in that argument if you want, it's makes zero sense though.

 

[dirtydanglez]

The shift key is a modifier key on a keyboard, used to type capital letters and other alternate "upper" characters. When pressed and held down while pressing another key, it allows typing in uppercase or the top character on a key.

fascinating

 

[FastEddie]

He was drafted 1st overall and always expected to be a borderline generational guy. Comparisons to Sakic or Yzerman are apt. There were a couple years there where people questioned if he had the hockey IQ. I still sorta question it but I'll leave it to avs fans to tell me why that isn't a problem for him anymore.

 

[Hennessy]

There's a lot of Sakic comparisons, which I get. But as for former Avs he reminds me more of Forsberg. He's not afraid of contact and often reminds players of it, he has the ability to put the game on his stick - sometimes to his detriment, but that's true of any player who waltzes in. Sometimes it fails.
He's dynamic in a way that makes you hold up. And as far as sports being entertainment, that's what you want to see.
I just decided to nickname Makar/MacKinnon Bread & Circus.