LW/RW Kaapo Kakko (2019, 2nd, NYR) Part 8
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
- Start date
I would rather kick Quinn to the moon. NYR is better team than on paper, but our junior coatch Quinn is totally lost. They say he is good with young players, but looks like he is destroying prospects like Kakko and L. Andersson. Cause he's whole game system is leaning on individual efforts and Panarin's top line and PP.
Propably ppl have misunderstood where quinn is good... with "young" players or "top" players. In my eyes he is everything else but good with juniors. I bet that Kakko and Andersson would get way better development in AHL, Liiga or SHL than NHL under Quinn. Like Kakko's avg icetime is around same than Puljujärvi had... and propably even worse on 5vs5 than Puljju's. Kakko have already more linemates than Pulju in hes 3seasons in Oilers.
Even atm I think main problem in NYR rollercoaster is Quinn I cant give credit to Kakko neither. In several matches when most of Kakko's line 2meter passes was missed by 3 meter and Kakko became frustrated, hestarted to do pretty stupid choices. But is that good coatching/developing young players when they play in lines are totally lost and line is changing 2-4 times during match. Like in one game Kakko had 1 accepted pass in whole period while he's line had 10giveaways. Kakko touched puck twice in that period with 4min icetime.
But anyway.... last few weeks I have been avoiding NYR cause Quinn need more development in coatching than propsects in NHL.
So it is Quinns fault again that Kaapo had - 3. Or Quinn's and linemates?
Kids has loads to learn from overall game. Also Kakko seems to has stamina issues.
But no. Let him play 24 minutes a night. And if Panarin is bad trade him!
Well not exactly. Ofc its Kakko's and his linemates foul aswell. But who are his linemates? According icetimes and games I watched his linemates was NYR roster. So how can u develop chemistry or learn anything when youre role and linemates are basicly roulette? But yes better that kakko plays 24min in night with role/linemates to develop himself in Liiga, SHL, KHL or AHL than struggling to fit anywhere in current roster but PP next to Panarin. And I dont know about Kakko's stamina issues.... looks more like fustration in whole doing on ice... some flashes yes, but NYR feels like copy of TPS as team what comes in stability between lines.
Where did i say panarin is bad? He is definitely first real star in NYR for decade or two. What I see problem atm is that Quinn should try to make 2 working offensive lines and try to stabilize lines/nyr roster and develop chemistry in lines with clear roling. But it is hard when NYR is taking to many PIM.
And in last 10 games we have notices that Kakko has been playing pretty well at PP next to panarin but 5vs5 have Quinn even tried them together more than 2 swifts or on paper? And while we have seen that Strome is suitable in top lines (when got more responsibility while zin. is injured), but Strome havent been not so productive with Kakko. So why isn't Quinn trying to make something working with that or just let Kakko go to to develop himself somewhere else like L. Andersson when he didnt have even change to get fit in NYR roster.
And if Kakko really have stamina issues, that he cant play over 12min/night at age of 19. Then he wont ever be star player and propably neither NHL player after rookie contract. So it makes totally sense, that Quinn is having Kakko in 3th or 4th line on 5vs5 while he is offensive player without stamina.
But yes better to continue this Quinn's rollercoaster nonsense... maybe in 5 years NYR will collect enought top#5 prospects from drafts to create succeed NHL team.
And top of my disrespect towards Quinn is also he's media appearances. I have been almost month googling he's name just for hope to see that he is fired. But instead till now I have just found more reasons to hate him
Here is Quinn from last night.
"“I was unhappy with everybody. Everybody. The lapses were every single guy in the lineup.” That was Quinn’s opinion about the effort his team showed in Ottawa. "
Here day ago
"Ranger coach Quinn blames Buchnevich for penalty, ugly loss vs. Senators"
Definitely real leader to develop young players. Im pretty sure Quinn is in his own mind 2nd best player in NYR roster after Panarin.
As someone who has watched every Ranger game this year, if you think Kakko deserves more ice time than he is getting I don't believe you have watched him play or are incredibly biased for some reason. Kid has shown flashes and his hands are insane, but he is terrible away from the puck and has plenty to learn about what works and doesn't at this level. That is all fine and normal for an 18 year old, so definitely not worried, but he has been gifted way more ice-time than he has earned at this level. +/- is a flawed stat but I believe his -13 is accurately representing how he has played so far in the NHL.
Again, not unexpected for an 18 year old, and nothing to be overly concerned about for his future. There are many legitimate complaints that can be leveled against Quinn, but how he has handled Kakko is absolutely not one of them.
Again, not unexpected for an 18 year old, and nothing to be overly concerned about for his future. There are many legitimate complaints that can be leveled against Quinn, but how he has handled Kakko is absolutely not one of them.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
At the beginning of the season, a lot of people were complaining that the Rangers were a one line team with Panarin and Zibanejad playing well, along with the player who would play on their line, and there was no other offense.
The team has stabilized offensively, and it's because of other contributions. Strome has played much better than expected. Some of it is that he's played with Panarin, but he's averaging 1PPG. I've never heard of a player in the NHL being carried by a teammate to averaging 1PPG. Chytil has 7 goals and 9 total points in 12 games since being recalled. He's been great at both ends of the rink. Buchnevich has 17 primary points and 18 total points in 21 games. He has the third best even strength GAR in the league. If he was on the first PP, he'd probably have close to 25 points. Lemieux has 9 points in 20 games, and he's playing a great agitator style, doing all this at under 14 minutes per game. He's turning into a very good player, who might have top six potential. Kreider's game has stabilized after a bad start to the season, and he's on pace for nearly 50 points.
People are complaining about Kakko's line mates, but maybe they should look at Kakko. Lemieux had two goals yesterday, one on the PK and one on the PP, the two situations he's not a line-mate of Kakko. Howden had two assists yesterday, one on the PK and one during an ES shift where Kakko wasn't his line-mate. The game before Howden that scored at ES during a shift where Kakko wasn't on the ice. Thats not to say these are great players, but Kakko hasn't earned a spot on a higher line. He's not playing better than Panarin, Buchnevich, Strome, Chytil, Kreider, and arguably not Lemieux either. When Zibanejad comes back likely on Wednesday, that'll be 6 or 7 players that deserve a bigger ES role than Kakko, and then there's the issue that Quinn is still overplaying Fast. Kakko's probably even lucky that he's on PP1 over Buchnevich. He's likely on the unit as a player development move over a results move.
I'm not a big fan of Quinn. Bad coach tactically, hasn't developed Andersson well and didn't develop Chytil well last season. Zibanejad's injury this season forced him into giving Chytil a bigger role. I don't think his usage of Kakko is something to complain about. Kakko and Howden are the only young players in the organization that he's handed a top 9 role without having to earn it. Kakko has not once been scratched. Quinn last season scratched nearly the whole team. Kakko has more than earned a scratch, if he was coaching him like he coached others last season. Kakko has played every game in the top 9, and a few games with our best players. He's been handed a spot on the top PP. He'll routinely drop Kakko's minutes late in a game, but when he demotes other players the next game for having a bad game, he won't demote Kakko. And I'm not against giving Kakko a bigger role than he's earned. I don't think he should be used as a grinder, but complaining about Kakko's makes no sense, in my opinion.
The team has stabilized offensively, and it's because of other contributions. Strome has played much better than expected. Some of it is that he's played with Panarin, but he's averaging 1PPG. I've never heard of a player in the NHL being carried by a teammate to averaging 1PPG. Chytil has 7 goals and 9 total points in 12 games since being recalled. He's been great at both ends of the rink. Buchnevich has 17 primary points and 18 total points in 21 games. He has the third best even strength GAR in the league. If he was on the first PP, he'd probably have close to 25 points. Lemieux has 9 points in 20 games, and he's playing a great agitator style, doing all this at under 14 minutes per game. He's turning into a very good player, who might have top six potential. Kreider's game has stabilized after a bad start to the season, and he's on pace for nearly 50 points.
People are complaining about Kakko's line mates, but maybe they should look at Kakko. Lemieux had two goals yesterday, one on the PK and one on the PP, the two situations he's not a line-mate of Kakko. Howden had two assists yesterday, one on the PK and one during an ES shift where Kakko wasn't his line-mate. The game before Howden that scored at ES during a shift where Kakko wasn't on the ice. Thats not to say these are great players, but Kakko hasn't earned a spot on a higher line. He's not playing better than Panarin, Buchnevich, Strome, Chytil, Kreider, and arguably not Lemieux either. When Zibanejad comes back likely on Wednesday, that'll be 6 or 7 players that deserve a bigger ES role than Kakko, and then there's the issue that Quinn is still overplaying Fast. Kakko's probably even lucky that he's on PP1 over Buchnevich. He's likely on the unit as a player development move over a results move.
I'm not a big fan of Quinn. Bad coach tactically, hasn't developed Andersson well and didn't develop Chytil well last season. Zibanejad's injury this season forced him into giving Chytil a bigger role. I don't think his usage of Kakko is something to complain about. Kakko and Howden are the only young players in the organization that he's handed a top 9 role without having to earn it. Kakko has not once been scratched. Quinn last season scratched nearly the whole team. Kakko has more than earned a scratch, if he was coaching him like he coached others last season. Kakko has played every game in the top 9, and a few games with our best players. He's been handed a spot on the top PP. He'll routinely drop Kakko's minutes late in a game, but when he demotes other players the next game for having a bad game, he won't demote Kakko. And I'm not against giving Kakko a bigger role than he's earned. I don't think he should be used as a grinder, but complaining about Kakko's makes no sense, in my opinion.
Well not exactly. Ofc its Kakko's and his linemates foul aswell. But who are his linemates? According icetimes and games I watched his linemates was NYR roster. So how can u develop chemistry or learn anything when youre role and linemates are basicly roulette? But yes better that kakko plays 24min in night with role/linemates to develop himself in Liiga, SHL, KHL or AHL than struggling to fit anywhere in current roster but PP next to Panarin. And I dont know about Kakko's stamina issues.... looks more like fustration in whole doing on ice... some flashes yes, but NYR feels like copy of TPS as team what comes in stability between lines.
Where did i say panarin is bad? He is definitely first real star in NYR for decade or two. What I see problem atm is that Quinn should try to make 2 working offensive lines and try to stabilize lines/nyr roster and develop chemistry in lines with clear roling. But it is hard when NYR is taking to many PIM.
And in last 10 games we have notices that Kakko has been playing pretty well at PP next to panarin but 5vs5 have Quinn even tried them together more than 2 swifts or on paper? And while we have seen that Strome is suitable in top lines (when got more responsibility while zin. is injured), but Strome havent been not so productive with Kakko. So why isn't Quinn trying to make something working with that or just let Kakko go to to develop himself somewhere else like L. Andersson when he didnt have even change to get fit in NYR roster.
And if Kakko really have stamina issues, that he cant play over 12min/night at age of 19. Then he wont ever be star player and propably neither NHL player after rookie contract. So it makes totally sense, that Quinn is having Kakko in 3th or 4th line on 5vs5 while he is offensive player without stamina.
But yes better to continue this Quinn's rollercoaster nonsense... maybe in 5 years NYR will collect enought top#5 prospects from drafts to create succeed NHL team.
And top of my disrespect towards Quinn is also he's media appearances. I have been almost month googling he's name just for hope to see that he is fired. But instead till now I have just found more reasons to hate him
Here is Quinn from last night.
"“I was unhappy with everybody. Everybody. The lapses were every single guy in the lineup.” That was Quinn’s opinion about the effort his team showed in Ottawa. "
Here day ago
"Ranger coach Quinn blames Buchnevich for penalty, ugly loss vs. Senators"
Definitely real leader to develop young players. Im pretty sure Quinn is in his own mind 2nd best player in NYR roster after Panarin.
Easily 19 year old has stamina issues in new enviroment and with strenght and skating training he surely has.
Though he has it going better as early in season kid was exgausted really quickly.
I brought up Panarin as Kakko fans seem to allways blame every one else if Kakko does not score.
It was just horrendous when Kakko was in Liiga and now same continues.
Rangers have problems and Quinn tries to find good lines. And that does not only mean offence. Kakko has been given top 9 role in every game and he has had quite a rollercoaster ride this far.
Patience is the key here. Kakko has No rush but he has lot to learn.
tealhockey
@overtheboards
- Jun 2, 2012
- 1,197
- 854
Interesting take, I haven't watched much since the first few games but the way you frame it there doesn't seem to be much to worry about after a start where I thought they looked pretty miserable. Yeah at some point Kakko has to get the job done and the grace period of the first 20 games or so will wear off. I don't think he's the type who can carry a line as a rookie but I thought his usage early was a bit lack-luster. I'll look later today at how he's being used line-mate wise and situationally, see if there is anything interesting there
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
The team has plenty of problems, but offense isn't one. The team is 9th in goals per game. The top 9 is pretty good, and the defense has a good amount of offense with DeAngelo, Fox and Trouba. Thats 3 players who will give you 30-55+ points per season. The forward core was a question mark at the beginning of the season, but Chytil has answered the questions about whether he could develop into the 2C, and getting an unexpected boost from guys like Strome and Lemieux makes the lineup a lot deeper. At this point in the season, Kakko's probably the 8th best forward on the team.
The problems with the team are defensively and to a lesser extent goaltending. 30th in goals allowed for game, T18 in SV%. A lot of young players doesn't generally lead to a good defense. A lot of our young players aren't good defensively, it's not a team with very many good defensive forwards, and Zibanejad being injured for nearly a month hasn't helped. On the backend, Trouba is solid but can't carry a first pair, Lindgren has been very good but still a rookie, Fox has been good but also a rookie. DeAngelo and Skjei are mediocre defensively, can be average when on form. Staal and Hajek are abysmal, and don't belong on an NHL defense. Lundqvist can have some very good stretches, but has nowhere near the consistency as he had in the past. He's probably a 1A/1B caliber goalie at this point. Georgiyev has struggled this season, and might be close to a demotion.
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I totally agree with you. Definitely Kakko hasn't deserved being in top6, but as young offensive player it would be better to develop he's weaknesses in own role or in team where he has more responsibility and ice time to develop himself. So I would rather give Kakko more responsibility elsewhere if NYR isnt giving him atleast chance in top line where he could give something else for team than just generating negative +/- rating in grinding line.
Now it looks like Kakko is in same situation than Puljujärvi was with Oilers. Everyone feels to playing better without him than with him. And while responsibility is dropping and team tries to boost he's self confidence with PP when whole hes 5vs5 game is broken.
And what comes with with other NYR players i totally agree with most. Well Kreider has been really bad in many games I watched, but Kakko wasnt any better as his linemate.
Also could say Lemieux is better than Kakko especially in he's own role. Only bad thing in Lemiux is that he is one of those players who causes NYR problems with he's penalty minutes.
Well lets hope that when Zibanejad comes back that Quinn tries to do some modifications to make lines them more stabilize and effective. But till now Quinn haven't show flexibility neither to be able fix any issues at NYR rollercoaster. So probably we will rather see him blaming Zibanejad after next match
I totally agree that establishing winning team takes time and patience.
Also probably same is needed with Kakko.. and I also hope im totally
wrong about Quinn. But like I have saw Kakko playing, he feels to be
lost on ice and team chemistry/timing too often.
And I still think Kakko should be try to fit in top line (even he dont deserve that) and if doesnt work then demote him
to develop hes flaws. So rather that than
keep him just around cause he is #2 draft, but dont have neither deserve spot in team or neither close to role NYR is developing him.
And what comes to Panarin he is one of my favorite player. But current season I'm
actually most impressed and happy how Colorado handled C. Makar development
and how he has succeed till now.
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You are totally right... Im usually bad explaining my point and have been many time misunderstood. But what comes with Kakkos flaws you are totally right. He should be demoted to take role he should be developing himself with some ice time. Rather that than -13 and really miserable outcome for team. Which isnt developing kid, but rather hurting team succeed and also player development if you are totally lost in field every night.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I totally agree with you. Definitely Kakko hasn't deserved being in top6, but as young offensive player it would be better to develop he's weaknesses in own role or in team where he has more responsibility and ice time to develop himself. So I would rather give Kakko more responsibility elsewhere if NYR isnt giving him atleast chance in top line where he could give something else for team than just generating negative +/- rating in grinding line.
Now it looks like Kakko is in same situation than Puljujärvi was with Oilers. Everyone feels to playing better without him than with him. And while responsibility is dropping and team tries to boost he's self confidence with PP when whole hes 5vs5 game is broken.
And what comes with with other NYR players i totally agree with most. Well Kreider has been really bad in many games I watched, but Kakko wasnt any better as his linemate.
Also could say Lemieux is better than Kakko especially in he's own role. Only bad thing in Lemiux is that he is one of those players who causes NYR problems with he's penalty minutes.
Well lets hope that when Zibanejad comes back that Quinn tries to do some modifications to make lines them more stabilize and effective. But till now Quinn haven't show flexibility neither to be able fix any issues at NYR rollercoaster. So probably we will rather see him blaming Zibanejad after next match
I'd definitely prefer Kakko on the Panarin line instead of Fast. I've mentioned that a few times, but Quinn overuses Fast. I assume Fast's going to be demoted when Zibanejad returns. I can't imagine that anyone else is going to be demoted to the third line with how these other guys are playing. Aside from Fast, Kakko's just not earning a role over these others. I'm not willing to compromise the development of the team so much just to let Kakko play with Panarin or Zibanejad. We need to get trade value for Kreider, we need to get trade value for Strome, Chytil is only 20 years old, Buchnevich only 24, Panarin and Zibanejad are the two best players on the team, so there's really just no role for him right now in the top 6. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt over all these players for a role, if its close, but it's not. All are demonstrably better players right now.
Kreider should get traded in February and maybe even Strome, so spots will open up eventually, but this is why I've suggested that Kakko be moved to the AHL team for a few weeks to a few months. I think he would benefit a lot more from that. Right now, he has a few good games from time to time where he shows his high-end skill, but aside from that, he's mostly invisible, and coasts along with moderate level minutes. I'd rather Kakko be playing big minutes in a worse league that probably replicates his current ability better now than being the 8th or 9th forward in the NHL. I know a lot of people look at it as bad for PR reasons if he's sent to the AHL, but I think the team should be more concerned with what will best allow Kakko to be the key player on the team in a season or two. I think playing 20 minutes per game in the AHL would be much better for that.
I think the Rangers are looking at what Carolina did with Svechnikov last year, and watching him blossom this year, and trying to emulate that.
Kakko at even strength is over-matched and at the moment will drag every line down with him. They aren't going to run him out there for 20 minutes a night and waste either Zib or Panarin's effectiveness on the ice by babysitting him.
But as long as he continues to improve, his development will be perfectly fine, and potentially this is the best place for him. As long as he keeps his confidence and works to continually improve he is seeing exactly what he needs to do to be successful at the NHL level. There has been a big improvement on his decision making with the puck as the season has gone along. He is finding more of his teammates and hes becoming more inclined to put a puck in deep or away from trouble instead of trying to do it all himself. He starts making those improvements in the other areas of his game, takes an offseason to work on some of his holes (skating would be my suggestion. He really needs to add another gear to his explosiveness), and next year I think they are hoping he can truly earn some top 6 minutes.
Kakko at even strength is over-matched and at the moment will drag every line down with him. They aren't going to run him out there for 20 minutes a night and waste either Zib or Panarin's effectiveness on the ice by babysitting him.
But as long as he continues to improve, his development will be perfectly fine, and potentially this is the best place for him. As long as he keeps his confidence and works to continually improve he is seeing exactly what he needs to do to be successful at the NHL level. There has been a big improvement on his decision making with the puck as the season has gone along. He is finding more of his teammates and hes becoming more inclined to put a puck in deep or away from trouble instead of trying to do it all himself. He starts making those improvements in the other areas of his game, takes an offseason to work on some of his holes (skating would be my suggestion. He really needs to add another gear to his explosiveness), and next year I think they are hoping he can truly earn some top 6 minutes.
Well that was a bad game from Kakko. A side from PP and one pass interception he was just plain bad.
He was constantly late from every thing. Also games speed was just to mutch to his stride.
I have seen 1 good, 1 Ok and 5 bad games from him. Bad luck?
But if his performance is like this there is no way he deserves any more ice time. Line has one good player at the moment and it is Lemiux.
I am stubborn but I still think he is year early in NHL.
He was constantly late from every thing. Also games speed was just to mutch to his stride.
I have seen 1 good, 1 Ok and 5 bad games from him. Bad luck?
But if his performance is like this there is no way he deserves any more ice time. Line has one good player at the moment and it is Lemiux.
I am stubborn but I still think he is year early in NHL.
tealhockey
@overtheboards
- Jun 2, 2012
- 1,197
- 854
I haven't been watching him specifically lately but whenever I catch the rangers games he doesn't do anything to blow me away eitherWell that was a bad game from Kakko. A side from PP and one pass interception he was just plain bad.
He was constantly late from every thing. Also games speed was just to mutch to his stride.
I have seen 1 good, 1 Ok and 5 bad games from him. Bad luck?
But if his performance is like this there is no way he deserves any more ice time. Line has one good player at the moment and it is Lemiux.
I am stubborn but I still think he is year early in NHL.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
As I said weeks ago and I'll still say today, he should be in the AHL. It's not because he can't physically take NHL shifts, its because he would receive more benefit from a bigger role and a league where he can have a lot of success on a gamely basis as opposed to a good performance here or there once a week with largely anonymous play aside from that.
EnglishJet
Registered User
I think this is a good long-term move for him and the rangers. We all know they won’t do it, but there’s no use rushing him. He’s got the talent and the upside, let him figure it out outside the limelight.
Omark
Tesla stock
It's horrible to say but I am worried AF about his speed. He is the slowest Rangers forward and I think only Trouba is slower from the whole team.
We get better data when smart pucks come.
This isn't an issue that exists because he is only 18. If he can't do Barkov miracle with his speed I don't think he will be a solid top 6 player in the NHL. Barkov was able to increse his speed more than I've ever seen from anybody. I really hope Kakko can do the same. He has to.
Right now he is AHL level on ES but on PP he is really good. Aside from not having one timer shot which is other crucial problem with him.
We get better data when smart pucks come.
This isn't an issue that exists because he is only 18. If he can't do Barkov miracle with his speed I don't think he will be a solid top 6 player in the NHL. Barkov was able to increse his speed more than I've ever seen from anybody. I really hope Kakko can do the same. He has to.
Right now he is AHL level on ES but on PP he is really good. Aside from not having one timer shot which is other crucial problem with him.
FinPanda
Barkov Stanley cup champ!
He actually has a good one timer shot, he just doesn't use it.
Jauffre
Registered Grandmaster
He's gotta have the worst acceleration on the team.. takes baby tip-toe strides like he's hesitant to move his feet or something. Really hope he doesn't turn out to be only a PP specialist. But I have a feeling we don't see the Kakko we expected til a season or two from now. Funny how many thought he would be a force right out the gate!
Nothing I would say. Just so mutch harder league. Not mutch development eather.
Year back in Finland training his weaknesses would have made quite a difference here.
I am quite sure he gets his feet going in coming years. But how mutch?
FinPanda
Barkov Stanley cup champ!
I'm not worried about his skating unless he shows no improvement during the next couple of seasons.
Wasn't there a lot of talk about how skinny his legs were when pictured in shorts at the Draft.
I think his issues are very related to a young, nervous coach that appears over his head at times, as well as being on the ice with players that don't really help his play.
