Luongo was offer sheeted by Detroit in 2006

vadim sharifijanov

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but actually, this whole thread is an exercise in cloud talk because there is basically zero chance vancouver doesn’t match any offer sheet

coming off cloutier/auld and the repeated failures of naslund/bertuzzi and run and gun crawford hockey, they miraculously landed a franchise goalie and they were going to go all in on him. that summer they also overhauled the coaching staff to go defensive and turtle shell in front of luongo.
 

ShelbyZ

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For 2005-06, it looks like Osgood stumbled a bit around the new year which let Manny take the reins (solidified with the back-to-back shutouts of the Avs and Preds in early February).


Things became more of a timeshare when Legace faltered a bit in early March - I recall speculation at the time that Legace didn't have the stamina and had never played as much as he did in 2005-06 (even in junior).

My recollection of that season is that Osgood was brought in to battle for the starting job and was expected to win it, but his wonky groin kept him out of the start of the season.

Legace went on that tear to start the year (IIRC, some kind of record for wins in October for the team) and Babcock pretty quickly named Legace the teams starter and that never really wavered. Though IIRC, Legace was weird about it (IE, I recall some interview where someone in the Det. media congratulated him for being named starter and his response "Ehh, I'm not that good" or something like that. Ranked up there with him saying he was going to hang himself after the playoff elimination).

You can see where when both were healthy, Legace got most of the work. Osgood starting getting more starts as the schedule got more cramped after the Olympics, but Legace was still seen as the main guy.

Then when Legace shat the bed in the playoffs, it was rumored Osgood was supposed to get the call for game 4, but his wonky groin crept up in the morning skate and he was done for the series.

They re-signed Osgood at the same low cost (of course he would've played for Detroit for 4 Chalupa Supreme's a year) to continue as backup and also an option as starter since the market was pretty thin. I think even Hasek was seen as a red flag due to his age and that injury thing with the Olympics and Sens.
 

Crosby2010

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To me I look at a goalie's performance on an individual level to see if he choked. Did he let in a bad untimely goal often? To me that's choking. Did he lose to a team he should have beat? Did he cough up a lead in a series? Did he play poorly in the losses? All of that leads to whether or not a goalie chokes. Cujo did have those moments in the 1st round where he was excellent, but he did lag in the later rounds and just didn't have that killer instinct in the international tournaments either. 1996 World Cup, man, you had Richter on the other end standing on his head. You have to win that game Cujo! Anyway, I think Luongo looked bad when he lost. 2009, 2010 and 2012 come to mind. Also in 2011 that Game 7 really changed the way he could have been viewed. If he gets a shutout then he has three shutouts in the Cup final and no doubt wins the Conn Smythe. It is easy to forget that the consensus going into that game was that whoever won the Cup the goalie (Tim Thomas on the other side) was going to win the Smythe. So I won't hang Luongo so badly for that one but he just looked bad in Game 7. And he looked horrible in the final games in 2009 and 2010. And while we are at it he did not have a great Cup final overall since he was pulled twice and in the game he stayed in he let in 8 goals! So when you lose in Game 7 all of that stuff just multiplies. He had the chance to redeem himself in Game 7 and didn't.

And he had those games in the Olympics/World Cup that made you nervous. He seemed to always let the other team back in the game when given the chance. It happened in the 2004 World Cup with the Czechs. It happened with the Americans with a 2-0 lead in the gold medal game. He did win both times, so I'll give him that, but man did he ever give you a heart attack.
 
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JackSlater

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To me I look at a goalie's performance on an individual level to see if he choked. Did he let in a bad untimely goal often? To me that's choking. Did he lose to a team he should have beat? Did he cough up a lead in a series? Did he play poorly in the losses? All of that leads to whether or not a goalie chokes. Cujo did have those moments in the 1st round where he was excellent, but he did lag in the later rounds and just didn't have that killer instinct in the international tournaments either. 1996 World Cup, man, you had Richter on the other end standing on his head. You have to win that game Cujo! Anyway, I think Luongo looked bad when he lost. 2009, 2010 and 2012 come to mind. Also in 2011 that Game 7 really changed the way he could have been viewed. If he gets a shutout then he has three shutouts in the Cup final and no doubt wins the Conn Smythe. It is easy to forget that the consensus going into that game was that whoever won the Cup the goalie (Tim Thomas on the other side) was going to win the Smythe. So I won't hang Luongo so badly for that one but he just looked bad in Game 7. And he looked horrible in the final games in 2009 and 2010. And while we are at it he did not have a great Cup final overall since he was pulled twice and in the game he stayed in he let in 8 goals! So when you lose in Game 7 all of that stuff just multiplies. He had the chance to redeem himself in Game 7 and didn't.

And he had those games in the Olympics/World Cup that made you nervous. He seemed to always let the other team back in the game when given the chance. It happened in the 2004 World Cup with the Czechs. It happened with the Americans with a 2-0 lead in the gold medal game. He did win both times, so I'll give him that, but man did he ever give you a heart attack.
That's true about 2010 but not 2004. Luongo came in for the semi-finals after Brodeur was the established started and played very well in a game where the Czechs outplayed Canada.
 
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Crosby2010

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That's true about 2010 but not 2004. Luongo came in for the semi-finals after Brodeur was the established started and played very well in a game where the Czechs outplayed Canada.

Just like in the 2010 gold medal game, Canada had a 2-0 lead. Two goals by the Czechs, the first one is "meh", the second one is a rebound. Okay, don't hang him on those two, but when Draper scored to give Canada the 3-2 lead the Czechs scored 6 seconds later. He did do well in overtime and Canada did win, so there's that. Ditto in 2010 though. Ryan Kesler scores a weak goal to cut the lead in half at 2-1. Then the Parise goal with 30 seconds left. Canada is in full control and that Kesler goal breathes life into an American team that did not have the stars that Canada did on their team.

All I am saying is that in a big game he made me nervous. Even Tony Esposito despite his reputation as not being a playoff goalie has the 1972 Summit Series where he did the best out of the three goalies. Luongo just made you hold your breath. He's still a HHOF goalie and such, I'm okay with that, he's too good to keep out, but when a goalie is that good he usually wins the Cup.
 

JackSlater

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Just like in the 2010 gold medal game, Canada had a 2-0 lead. Two goals by the Czechs, the first one is "meh", the second one is a rebound. Okay, don't hang him on those two, but when Draper scored to give Canada the 3-2 lead the Czechs scored 6 seconds later. He did do well in overtime and Canada did win, so there's that. Ditto in 2010 though. Ryan Kesler scores a weak goal to cut the lead in half at 2-1. Then the Parise goal with 30 seconds left. Canada is in full control and that Kesler goal breathes life into an American team that did not have the stars that Canada did on their team.

All I am saying is that in a big game he made me nervous. Even Tony Esposito despite his reputation as not being a playoff goalie has the 1972 Summit Series where he did the best out of the three goalies. Luongo just made you hold your breath. He's still a HHOF goalie and such, I'm okay with that, he's too good to keep out, but when a goalie is that good he usually wins the Cup.
The situations are different, namely that Canada outplayed USA in 2010 but the Czechs outplayed Canada in 2004. Luongo coming in as the surprise starter in the semi finals, into a game where Canada was actually outchanced and significantly outshot by the opposition for once, is a plus, not something to be cited as a negative. I remember Canada looking quite bad in that game. Here is an easily accessible report from the time of the semi finals:

Lecavalier was the offensive hero, but goalie Roberto Luongo, starting for the injured Martin Brodeur, earned plenty of attention as he overcame the suffocating pressure of the game, especially in the third period and early in overtime when it seemed like just a matter of time before the Czechs would win it.

In fact, moments before Lecavalier scored the winner, Luongo denied Milan Hejduk from in close, a save at one end that sparked the offensive heroics at the other. In all, Luongo made 37 saves as Canada was out-shot 40-24.

“Roberto played unbelievable,” Kris Draper said. “He was huge for us.”

He may well have been the difference on a night when Canada wasn’t very sharp in the estimation of their coach.

“We escaped,” Pat Quinn said. “I saw tentativeness in our team tonight. I’m not sure why. We sure didn’t have the focus we needed to have. We did not execute very well, but a lot of that was the play of the Czechs.

“We were fortunate to have survived,” Quinn said. “The Czechs played really well. They out-chanced us by quite a margin.”

Luongo was consistently very good to great internationally. 2010 is probably his shakiest, but he was far from bad and obviously the team did win. I can't help but think that his NHL reputation is colouring perception of his international play.

The 2004 World Cup is the most forgotten best on best tournament ever, which is not great for Luongo and Thornton as it actually gives evidence against their choker labels.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Just like in the 2010 gold medal game, Canada had a 2-0 lead. Two goals by the Czechs, the first one is "meh", the second one is a rebound. Okay, don't hang him on those two, but when Draper scored to give Canada the 3-2 lead the Czechs scored 6 seconds later. He did do well in overtime and Canada did win, so there's that. Ditto in 2010 though. Ryan Kesler scores a weak goal to cut the lead in half at 2-1. Then the Parise goal with 30 seconds left. Canada is in full control and that Kesler goal breathes life into an American team that did not have the stars that Canada did on their team.

All I am saying is that in a big game he made me nervous. Even Tony Esposito despite his reputation as not being a playoff goalie has the 1972 Summit Series where he did the best out of the three goalies. Luongo just made you hold your breath. He's still a HHOF goalie and such, I'm okay with that, he's too good to keep out, but when a goalie is that good he usually wins the Cup.

five times luongo took a year off my lifespan. but first the setup:

game four vs chicago, 2009

luongo was sensational in this game, carrying a shutout into the end of the third with a 1-0 lead. less than three minutes to go, there’s a failed clear and havlat scores off the turnover, quick shot from the hash marks that a more dialed in luongo would have had. they score again early into OT and instead of being up 3-1 the series is tied. this game foreshadows everything to come over the next two absolutely bonkers years.

so the five times:

game six vs chicago, 2009

game five was another game we were ahead, before chicago tied it up late in the second, then got the winner late in the third before icing it with an empty netter. luongo really had a thing for coughing up leads in the last few minutes of a period. so game six was an elimination game, chicago had the momentum and was in luongo’s head, jumps out to a 3-1 lead by the midway pt of the second, but daniel sedin has the game of his life, keying the comeback by scoring immediately after chicago’s third goal. game is tied 3-3 going into the third and sundin scores an early one to go up 4-3. chicago ties it, then daniel scores another one on the PP to regain the lead with less than eight minutes to go in the third. then 7uongo happens. coughs up two goals in less than a minute and kane gets a late one to collect his hat trick and put the game out of reach.

semi-finals game vs slovakia, 2010 olympics

up 3-0 going into the second half of the third period, visnovsky scores to ruin the shutout, then with five minutes left handzus makes it a game. a sensational last minute save on demitra seals the win but man did he make us sweat that one out in a game we should have walked away with.

gold medal game vs usa, 2010 olympics

as we all know, luongo lets in the parise goal with under thirty seconds to go to force overtime.

game six vs chicago, 2011

i will never ever forget watching this game. after luongo had turned a 3-0 series lead into a 3-2 series, cory schneider gets the start. but schneids gets hurt in the third period when frolik can-openered him on a penalty shot to tie the game at 3-3. enter luongo. i repeat: i will never ever forget when ben smith scored late in the first overtime to force game seven. we were watching the game after thanksgiving dinner and when that goal went in nobody spoke, we just all knew it was time to go home in complete stunned silence.

game seven vs chicago, 2011

carrying a 1-0 lead into the end of the third, toews scores with under two minutes to go in the game, setting up the biggest collective exhale a city has ever had when burrows scored in OT. but at that moment when toews scored...
 

Crosby2010

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semi-finals game vs slovakia, 2010 olympics

up 3-0 going into the second half of the third period, visnovsky scores to ruin the shutout, then with five minutes left handzus makes it a game. a sensational last minute save on demitra seals the win but man did he make us sweat that one out in a game we should have walked away with.

I can remember that game vividly. It is right up there as some of the most nerve wracking hockey I have ever watched. And it shouldn't have been. Canada in 2010 is a great team, I mean, look at that roster, there is about 15 players who either are or will be in the HHOF on that team, including all three goalies. It was incredible. Most of them in their prime too. But the knock I had on this team is that they either blew teams out or made games closer than they should have been. The blowouts were 8-0 vs. Norway, 8-2 vs. Germany and 7-3 vs. Russia. Story checks out. But the close ones, man oh man. a 3-2 shootout win in the round robin against.................Switzerland? To be fair they outshot them 47-23, but that was another 2-0 lead coughed up. Then the round robin loss to the U.S., 5-3, the nail biter that was 3-2 vs. the Slovaks and of course the gold medal game in overtime. There was no middle ground there.

But that Slovak game, Canada is in full control. 3-0 lead after two periods, yeah sounds about right. 21-9 shot advantage. Yeah, pretty much. Then they let their foot off the gas pedal and the Slovaks stormed back. Not all Luongo's fault of course but it wasn't easy to watch. My stomach dropped to the ground when Demitra was at the side of the net about to bury that rebound. Credit to Luongo for that save, but it was honestly that close going to overtime. Too close.

Luongo was consistently very good to great internationally. 2010 is probably his shakiest, but he was far from bad and obviously the team did win. I can't help but think that his NHL reputation is colouring perception of his international play.

The 2004 World Cup is the most forgotten best on best tournament ever, which is not great for Luongo and Thornton as it actually gives evidence against their choker labels.

Yes that is correct. That was a shocker at that time with how much the Czechs outshot us. That isn't what Canada has ever been used to. Even in a loss this wouldn't normally happen.

I'll agree that Thornton was dynamite in the 2004 World Cup. At this time I was pretty certain he was going to run the table and win the Cup somewhere down the road. He showed up for the World Cup that's for sure. That stolen puck against Chara in what would eventually be a blowout game against the Slovaks was amazing. It makes you wonder, why couldn't Thornton always play like that in a pressure cooker situation? Maybe because he wasn't the only star on the team perhaps. MVP of the 2004 World Cup could have gone to him as well.

Maybe I am being hard on Luongo here, I don't know. I will say this, I was relieved when Brodeur was healthy enough to play in the final against Finland. Obviously he is the more solid and steady choice.
 
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JackSlater

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I can remember that game vividly. It is right up there as some of the most nerve wracking hockey I have ever watched. And it shouldn't have been. Canada in 2010 is a great team, I mean, look at that roster, there is about 15 players who either are or will be in the HHOF on that team, including all three goalies. It was incredible. Most of them in their prime too. But the knock I had on this team is that they either blew teams out or made games closer than they should have been. The blowouts were 8-0 vs. Norway, 8-2 vs. Germany and 7-3 vs. Russia. Story checks out. But the close ones, man oh man. a 3-2 shootout win in the round robin against.................Switzerland? To be fair they outshot them 47-23, but that was another 2-0 lead coughed up. Then the round robin loss to the U.S., 5-3, the nail biter that was 3-2 vs. the Slovaks and of course the gold medal game in overtime. There was no middle ground there.

But that Slovak game, Canada is in full control. 3-0 lead after two periods, yeah sounds about right. 21-9 shot advantage. Yeah, pretty much. Then they let their foot off the gas pedal and the Slovaks stormed back. Not all Luongo's fault of course but it wasn't easy to watch. My stomach dropped to the ground when Demitra was at the side of the net about to bury that rebound. Credit to Luongo for that save, but it was honestly that close going to overtime. Too close.



Yes that is correct. That was a shocker at that time with how much the Czechs outshot us. That isn't what Canada has ever been used to. Even in a loss this wouldn't normally happen.

I'll agree that Thornton was dynamite in the 2004 World Cup. At this time I was pretty certain he was going to run the table and win the Cup somewhere down the road. He showed up for the World Cup that's for sure. That stolen puck against Chara in what would eventually be a blowout game against the Slovaks was amazing. It makes you wonder, why couldn't Thornton always play like that in a pressure cooker situation? Maybe because he wasn't the only star on the team perhaps. MVP of the 2004 World Cup could have gone to him as well.

Maybe I am being hard on Luongo here, I don't know. I will say this, I was relieved when Brodeur was healthy enough to play in the final against Finland. Obviously he is the more solid and steady choice.
I consider Thornton easily one of the biggest losers, career wise, from the 2005 lockout. Too bad for him. He was really good in 2004, in my opinion the best player in the championship game centering Canada's checking line but no one cares or remembers because that tournament is so forgotten. Instead of that memory lasting you have Thornton as the 14th forward for Canada in 2002... so not on the team, then basically the leader of Canada's most disappointing best on best team, then relegated to afterthought by the end of 2010. Then he has a late career renaissance and makes Canada's over 23 team for the 2016 NHL world cup, but that tournament was largely a joke so who cares?

For both Thornton and Luongo that tournament has what is probably their best pressure performances ever but they rarely come up.
 

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Detroit was so dominant in the mid-2000s that it's hard to say what difference Luongo would've made, as great as he was. The Wings could've won with anyone in net during the regular season. In the playoffs, it would've been hard to top what Osgood did (29-12, 1.80 GAA, .928 SV%) during their two Cup Finals runs.

The Wings were still competitive in the early-2010s, but had taken a step back. Maybe the upgrade from Howard -> Luongo would've been enough to elevate them to another Cup, but I'm not sure. Obviously, the season they needed Luongo the most would've been 2005-2006. But that was before (and likely the trigger of) the offer sheet.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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x-posting my big luongo post-mortem from the all-time goalies thread here:

so luongo came and went and i’m only catching up on it now.

it’s too late to help the rankings, but a contribution if i may, for posterity:

yes, the stretch run of the 2008 season was a result of his wife’s difficult pregnancy. he was flying back and forth between where the team was and miami to be with her.

but two bits of context here that weren’t discussed:

1. this was a major turning point in the public perception of luongo, which affected his mentality. before, he was the franchise. but he was livid (and imo rightfully so) that the local press reported on this. i don’t remember any ill will towards the team about this getting out, but this affected his relationship with the media from the spring of 2008 until he came clean about his secret twitter account around 2012/2013 and rehabilitated his media presence from paranoid crankypants to wacky veteran. there’s a chicken/egg thing here: as he turned on the media, the media also turned on him, and so when that first chicago series got away from him, they really really piled on. both in the local media and around the league, he was really really maligned and imo that affected his focus on the ice.

he also was never unguarded around the fans again, because you’d get jackasses calling him out on radio call-in shows for “not being a good captain” and staying with the team in a playoff race when obviously real life was happening in real time. i think that played a part too. (the fanbase was, and to this day in some circles remains, really really hard on his wife too, which i imagine he didn’t exactly love. part of the context there is this was post-pronger trade out of edmonton and canadian fans were paranoid across the board of superstars’ wives not wanting to live in canada.)

2. the peak luongo was 2004 up to march 20, 2008. on that day, he was 5th in wins, 2nd in SV% (less than 0.004 behind giguere, 0.005 ahead of brodeur), 6th in GAA. he was very much headed for major vezina consideration. so in a way, bad luck to have had the 2005 lockout and then a disastrous stretch run that was largely out of his control interrupt an absolutely otherworldly peak.

otoh, he was never the same after 2008. he was still a superstar goalie in the prime of a hall of fame career, but he was never the same. and i always have suspected, beyond the media and fan part of it, the real issue was he slipped. and i get why. any of us with kids, we all slipped a bit when we had our first one right? and at luongo’s level, playing at the top 0.01% of all goaltenders ever, if his mind slipped from, say, 100% locked in to 95%, which is totally understandable given that there’s a human life you’re now responsible for, that’s the difference between the luongo who could win any game any time and the guy who would always give you a chance to win. i get that at this level there are guys — roy, hasek, and jesus brodeur pulled the tim duncan and dominated the finals while going through a divorce where his wife was actively taunting him from the stands — who can have kids and compartmentalize, but when he became a dad luongo slipped.

and finally the yips. luongo had them. why, i don’t know, but he absolutely did have them. you could see it in his body language. when he’s feeling it, he strides onto the ice (and he was always the first canuck out of the tunnel) balls out and gigantic shoulders way up, like the shadowy image of kaiser soze walking out of the fire when kevin spacey is describing him in the usual suspects. but when the pressure was on, he played so much deeper into his crease and you could practically see him clenching. and when the puck was in the net, his eyes said so much.

and the results speak for themselves. chicago series 1, 2, and 3. last minute goals, whether at the end of a period or famously at the end of regulation while holding a lead, were his specialty. you never felt safe with him, whereas in 2007 and most of 2008, and later with thatcher demko, i never worried. end of the slovakia game, holding a 3-0 lead, he lets in two goals in the last ten minutes, holding on for a 3-2 win and a berth to the gold medal game. then the last minute parise goal in the gold medal game that forced overtime, before the crosby winner. now luongo came up big in games he almost flubbed too, making legendary saves on demitra and patrick sharp. but he also put himself in the position of having to make them.







watch him lose his post on the visnovsky goal and how deep he is on the handzus goal (that said, he always had trouble with big guys in his crease, from young wayne simmonds and handzus when he was on the kings to most famously byfuglien, and patrick marleau of all people terrorized him on several occasions).

which leads me to the last piece of luongo context here: i think after 2010 he never really trusted his technique. ian clark was his guy, and he was there up to 2010, when the team let him go (clark was later credited as being responsible for turning bobrovsky into a vezina guy, markstrom late-blooming into a top goalie, and developing demko). the ostensible reason is they blamed the previous two years’ meltdowns on luongo losing his feet when there was a lot of traffic in front of his crease or east-west puck movement on the rush, leading to a lot of famous goals where he ended up on his stomach. so rollie melanson (also a very very good goalie coach who developed cory schneider into an elite goalie and depending on who you ask either gets the credit for carey price or the blame for holding him back) was brought in, against luongo’s wishes, and rebuilt his game, most noticeably having him play deeper in his crease but also dramatically changing the way he set and pushed off. luongo was a good soldier and did the work, but i always thought the earlier, more aggressive luongo was the better goalie.

none of this contains an argument on where luongo is among the all-time goalies, which i have no idea. but in a post-mortem of him as a goalie, these are my two, three, and four cents from living with him as my guy day-in, day-out for half a decade.


but with two addenda responding to current events:

1. as this thread was instigated by, luongo was on the spittin’ chiclets podcast last week. it’s worth listening to hear him talk about nervous poops before games, resulting in the famous time when luongo missed the first few minutes of OT in a 2007 elimination game against the ducks because he had to squeeze out a few nugs. (poor dany sabourin stopped five shots before luongo came back, we ended up losing in double OT, and the ducks ended up winning the cup)

also worth listening for his thorough and brutally honest runthrough of the 2011 playoffs, including all the gutpunch moments. very very rare to see a pro athlete, especially a goalie, to reflect like that on the lowest moments of his professional career.

but that’s not what i want to draw attention to here. to my point above about goalie coaches, in that podcast luongo goes on and on about everything he learned from the great françois allaire, then goes on to list all the other goalie coaches who shaped him: ian clark, rob tallas, clint malarchuk, billy smith, and no mention of rollie melanson. i don’t think that was a coincidence.

2. so this week, jt miller took an indefinite leave of absence. our former AGM from the luongo days, laurence gilman was on the radio and in part he talked about when rick rypien (RIP) took several leaves of absence during the peak years of the luongo/sedin/kesler canucks. and re: luongo’s yips from 2009 to 2011, i think it maybe is also worthwhile to note what that team went through. there already was the tragedy of taylor pyatt’s wife dying in 2009, but rick rypien wasn’t well through those three years and the team knew it. as gilman said, “we didn’t have to have a meeting to tell the team rypien was taking a leave because they knew way more than we did about what was going on.” he talks about how when rypien went off the grid, all the guys on the team were out on the streets of vancouver looking for him. i don’t remember the exact timeline of when and where, but i do know that rypien took his second (and last) leave of absence about a month into the 2011 season. of course, he ended up losing his battle with depression in august of 2011. and in addition to being probably the best pound for pound fighter in the league, ryp was a useful fourth line center too. people forget, the max lapierre deadline trade was to replace rypien, not malhotra, who didn’t have his career altering eye injury until a week later.

anyway, all to say, i’m now wondering if some of the wild swings that team had in those playoffs were partly emotional exhaustion. this was an extremely close team that through the absolute worst of rypien’s struggles somehow found it in them to soldier on and win the presidents trophy in resounding fashion. but there also was the cumulative losses of rypien in november, malhotra (who was like the team’s dad) in march, samuelsson near the end of the nashville series, hamhuis in game one of the finals, aaron rome in game three, and mason raymond seconds into game six. and it’s important to note that the wheels completely fell off and the team started getting completely caved in: four unanswered goals after rome’s ejection, and a 4-0 first period after raymond was peeled off the ice. it’s not hard to imagine that some of those tire fire moments were too many things going on in their head. (and a sad coda: pavol demitra died less than a month after ryp. damn, that team went through a lot.)

idk, maybe this speaks to luongo’s famous yips of 2009 to 2011, at least somewhat.
 

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