Luongo was offer sheeted by Detroit in 2006

[JackSlater]

Even in the net for Canada, Luongo was shaky in important games most notable vs Slovakia and to a lesser extent Russia in 2010. Versus Russiathe lead was obviously so huge it didn't really matter.

Still don't get this idea that Luongo was this clutch goalie Red Wings would need to sacrifice depth for to win. He has never proven himself to be especially clutch. Is he a better goalie than Osgood? Obviously. Enough to off-set the differences in cap hits. Doubtful.

Pre-cap I would definitely replace Osgood with Luongo. I often argued replacing Osgood with a much better goalie which happened in '02. But in the cap era Osgoods much lower cap hit while still being a capable goalie allowed the Wings to build the type deep team they had.

Luongo was not great in that tournament, yes. Better than Brodeur at least. Otherwise he was generally excellent in the world championship with multiple championships, excellent when was was the WJC started on a mediocre Canadian team, excellent when he got suddenly thrown into the semi-finals of the 2004 World Cup with not so much notice.

I don't think that Detroit needed to sacrifice depth for goaltending. For all of his mistakes Holland at least recognized post-lockout that you pay your top forwards and defencemen and let the goaltending be something that doesn't sink you.

 

[Hobnobs]

Luongo was not great in that tournament, yes. Better than Brodeur at least. Otherwise he was generally excellent in the world championship with multiple championships, excellent when was was the WJC started on a mediocre Canadian team, excellent when he got suddenly thrown into the semi-finals of the 2004 World Cup with not so much notice.

I don't think that Detroit needed to sacrifice depth for goaltending. For all of his mistakes Holland at least recognized post-lockout that you pay your top forwards and defencemen and let the goaltending be something that doesn't sink you.

I like Luongo a lot so I agree with you.

Well as far as I could see at the numbers Farkas presented Wings definitely had to sacrifice a lot if Luongo signed the offer sheet.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Not sure why he didn't sign the Detroit offer sheet. This team just came off a 124 point campaign and was always a contender at that time. I don't know how much better the Wings are since they made the semis in 2007, won in 2008 and made the final in 2009. But maybe they stay longer as a contender with Luongo after 2009.

i’m guessing he knows vancouver would have matched basically anything and didn’t want to start his tenure on the wrong foot

 

[Gorskyontario]

Who cares about the Canucks? I'm a Detroit fan. Luongo spent years as a top five goalie in the NHL, including some of the timeframe included here. Osgood spent years as a generally average goaltender, sometimes worse.

Yet Luongo consistently choked in the playoffs.

 

[JackSlater]

Yet Luongo consistently choked in the playoffs.

I know that's the meme but I'd have loved to have seen Luongo behind post-lockout Detroit, as the team was. Somehow elite goaltenders who end up on very strong teams tend to end up labelled winners rather than losers or chokers.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I know that's the meme but I'd have loved to have seen Luongo behind post-lockout Detroit, as the team was. Somehow elite goaltenders who end up on very strong teams tend to end up labelled winners rather than losers or chokers.

No one calls CuJo or Vanbiesbrouck chokers.

People call Luongo a choker, because he choked consistently. Except for the 2010 olympics of course.

 

[JackSlater]

No one calls CuJo or Vanbiesbrouck chokers.

People call Luongo a choker, because he choked consistently. Except for the 2010 olympics of course.

You've never heard Curtis Joseph refrred to as a choker? That is... surprising. Luongo is of course better than Joseph.

The 2010 Olympics is not one of Luongo's highest points for international hockey. Again though, amazing what a loaded team in front can do for a goaltender's reputation regarding choking or not.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, if Luongo's first playoff series were with those Wings teams, he'd probably be revered as a winner and a money goalie.

Also, Osgood is not exactly someone I'd call Mr. Clutch.

And, "no one calls CuJo [a choker]"...literally makes less than zero sense. That's been said a zillion times haha

 

[GMR]

Goaltending was the problem in many losses during the 1990's. Legace in 2006 as well.

Cujo did fine and got a raw deal in Detroit in 2003 and 2004. That team gave him ZERO goal support when it mattered.

The 2007-2010 period was a fruitful period for the franchise. Osgood was a bright spot in the 2009 playoffs.

They're not winning in 2010 with Luongo. Chicago was a better team that year.

Maybe they win the Cup in 2007 but I didn't think Hasek was poor in that series against Anaheim. That team was the opposite of clutch in that series.

Maybe they win two Cups instead of one between 2007-2010, but that's probably it.

 

[Gorskyontario]

You've never heard Curtis Joseph refrred to as a choker?

Not by anyone with real hockey knowledge. Usually just leafs haters, as a leaf hater myself I sympathize but it doesn't really apply.


Luongo was more talented than Osgood, and had a most consistent career. That being said he never had a playoff run like Osgood did in 08/09.

 

[JackSlater]

Not by anyone with real hockey knowledge. Usually just leafs haters, as a leaf hater myself I sympathize but it doesn't really apply.


Luongo was more talented than Osgood, and had a most consistent career. That being said he never had a playoff run like Osgood did in 08/09.

Ah, so when you said that no one calls Joseph a choker you meant that people do call Joseph a choker.

There is nothing notable in 2008 for Osgood. He was very good in 2009, no question. Nothing that Luongo, a much better goaltender, couldn't replicate with a team like that in front of him. It's a weird argument to pursue when they are not even in the same class of player.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That would be a great post to end this thread with...it's exactly right and puts a nice bow on the thought exercise...

 

[Gorskyontario]

Ah, so when you said that no one calls Joseph a choker you meant that people do call Joseph a choker.

There is nothing notable in 2008 for Osgood. He was very good in 2009, no question. Nothing that Luongo, a much better goaltender, couldn't replicate with a team like that in front of him. It's a weird argument to pursue when they are not even in the same class of player.

I've never heard anyone call CuJo a choker in food faith. Mostly just anti leafs usual bla bla. I'm also anti leafs like I said so I sympathize.

Canucks won the presidents trophy in 2011, 2012. Got smoked in the finals then in the 1st round next year. Say whatever you want about Osgood but he never got lit up like Luongo against the bruins. In the finals.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Luongo also had two shutouts in the series. Not that it wasn't up and down...but folks are framing it like he didn't get a sniff...

CuJo famously doesn't make it out of the 2nd round but once or twice, right?

Osgood maybe wasn't in a position to get "lit up" in a 7-game series, but losing his job repeatedly ('95, '97, '02, '06, and wanting to go with 43 year old Hasek in '08) is something quite unique to this alleged money goalie or whatever folks are trying to paint this guy as...

 

[MadLuke]

I think there is a bit of a difference between how good Osgood was versus what he happened to do those springs.... well him and Hasek.

Luongo was not only better, he was maybe the best goaltender in the nhl around that time.

The red wings had the best GAA of the playoffs from 07 to 09, 1.97 goal against per games, Osgood was at 1.8.

They allowed only 121 goals on 1609 shots against, (.925% save percentage)

Considering you downgrade 1 or 2 piece of the Wings to fit Luongo salary cap, re-roll those dice, how confident you are the Detroit Red Wings let significantly less goals those playoffs and win more cups vs they win less cups ? They were already by a good amount the best team in the league in that regard.

Take it in a different way, change Halack for Luongo in 2010 against the caps and pens, playing like he did, mtl has a better or lesser chance of reaching the conference final ? If the answer I am not certain they do with Luongo, am I saying Luongo was not 2 full tier above Halak has a goaltender, no I am not.

The Wings goaltending performance during the playoff was perfectly fine (even excellent in 2009 I would say), specially by dollar under a cap system, making it hard to be improved, by anyone, even Luongo.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I agree, you probably do have to downgrade a piece or two. But Lidstrom specifically has handled some pretty ridiculous partners over the years and made them look useful...he has a way of Harvey'ing their Langlois...

But, if it's - say - Darryl Sydor at half price for Brad Stuart and Jan Hlavac at half price for Mikael Samuelsson...and in exchange, they get maybe the best goalie in the league...I think everyone probably lives. Probably.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Luongo also had two shutouts in the series. Not that it wasn't up and down...but folks are framing it like he didn't get a sniff...

CuJo famously doesn't make it out of the 2nd round but once or twice, right?

Osgood maybe wasn't in a position to get "lit up" in a 7-game series, but losing his job repeatedly ('95, '97, '02, '06, and wanting to go with 43 year old Hasek in '08) is something quite unique to this alleged money goalie or whatever folks are trying to paint this guy as...

Minor point, but did Osgood actually lose a job of any kind in 2006? My memory of it is that he was assumed to be a backup or at very most a lesser platoon partner for the balance of whatever post-lockout career he had left, and that his (numerically anyway) good season in 2008 that made him an option for a quick hook on Hasek and the first chair going forward, was a surprise?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I thought he was basically platooning with Legace, especially down the stretch. So, maybe "lose job" isn't perfect, but it fits thematically. Their choices were a 32 year old who had never played a full series before (2-2 in '04) or this supposed money goalie or whatever...they went for the unknown quantity over what they knew about Osgood...

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Then I'd introduce "quote bias" probably...

I thought for sure someone would have swooped in with actual cap stuff from this season...is it actually (practically) gone in a useful form?

I have no idea, here's what I can remember off the top of my head with great certainty:

2005-06 cap - $39M, 06-07 - $44M
Luongo's contract signed before 06-07 but after 05-06 AAV: $6.75MM AAV (IIRC)

Off the top of my head, since players tend to not want to play for free? Probably no Brian Rafalski. Robert Lang is probably gone before the season begins. Moving forward can you retain Johan Franzen? Everything changes for this team with this butterfly effect. In the terms of history? Maybe they get over the hump with him in 2007 as well as 08, maybe 09 but I don't think so.

In terms of wins and losses, I don't think much would change in the regular season...only *how* they would win vs how they did.
--------------

As you said as well, as every much Luongo cost us the series as some would have you believe, if he so much as blinked at the wrong time in two of the games, we don't even get a game 7 as well. His stinkers were stinky, but I'm not one for the cliche of scapegoating the tendy. There is a reason you skate with 19 guys not 1.

 

[Hobnobs]

I have no idea, here's what I can remember off the top of my head with great certainty:

2005-06 cap - $39M, 06-07 - $44M
Luongo's contract signed before 06-07 but after 05-06 AAV: $6.75MM AAV (IIRC)

Off the top of my head, since players tend to not want to play for free? Probably no Brian Rafalski. Robert Lang is probably gone before the season begins. Moving forward can you retain Johan Franzen? Everything changes for this team with this butterfly effect. In the terms of history? Maybe they get over the hump with him in 2007 as well as 08, maybe 09 but I don't think so.

In terms of wins and losses, I don't think much would change in the regular season...only *how* they would win vs how they did.
--------------

As you said as well, as every much Luongo cost us the series as some would have you believe, if he so much as blinked at the wrong time in two of the games, we don't even get a game 7 as well. His stinkers were stinky, but I'm not one for the cliche of scapegoating the tendy. There is a reason you skate with 19 guys not 1.

Yeah, stuff like no Rafalski is ignored and we would have a mystery player who's so good he can carry Lilja on the second pairing but at a lesser cap hit than Stuart. They could probably still fit in Stuart at the tdl but the defensive pairings up to that point would be something like

Lidström - Kronwall
Lilja - Lebda
Ericsson - Chelios
Meech

So we lose the best defensive partner for Lidas since Murphy and we might replace Stuart with a Sydor/Hannan/Poti. As well as replacing Samuelsson with Hlavac (what? ) The warping of reality in this thread just to desperately get rid of Osgood is unreal.

Stuff like resigning players are also ignored.

 

[JackSlater]

I've never heard anyone call CuJo a choker in food faith. Mostly just anti leafs usual bla bla. I'm also anti leafs like I said so I sympathize.

Canucks won the presidents trophy in 2011, 2012. Got smoked in the finals then in the 1st round next year. Say whatever you want about Osgood but he never got lit up like Luongo against the bruins. In the finals.

I'm glad that we agree that Joseph has been called a choker, whether you agree with the label or not.

The bulk of Luongo's choker reputation comes from the 2011 finals when his team was outplayed overall and lost in seven. It's not a plus for him but it's far from a negative that brings him down to Osgood's level. I don't know if you'll find many who will say that Vancouver outplayed LA in the first round in 2012 either. Osgood was not going to be winning a series in which his team was outplayed, but again the whole comparison is odd because they are not on the same level. It's like comparing the playoff outcomes for a first line centre and a third line centre and trying to draw conclusions about the players.

 

[Hobnobs]

I'm glad that we agree that Joseph has been called a choker, whether you agree with the label or not.

The bulk of Luongo's choker reputation comes from the 2011 finals when his team was outplayed overall and lost in seven. It's not a plus for him but it's far from a negative that brings him down to Osgood's level. I don't know if you'll find many who will say that Vancouver outplayed LA in the first round in 2012 either. Osgood was not going to be winning a series in which his team was outplayed, but again the whole comparison is odd because they are not on the same level. It's like comparing the playoff outcomes for a first line centre and a third line centre and trying to draw conclusions about the players.

Joseph definitely was a choker.

It's not just the choking in 2011 finals. He did the same thing in the Chicago series the year before and the year before that. He just didn't have the mental strength. He was an incredibly nervous goalie (which he admits himself).

I mean Farkas likes to talk about Osgood losing his job. So why not talk about Luongo losing his job the season after going to the cup finals?

Like I said I liked Luongo but between 08-13 he wasn't the best playoff goalie in the world. It's also incredible sad that his best playoff performances was wasted on losing causes (07 and 16).

 

[Hobnobs]

I thought he was basically platooning with Legace, especially down the stretch. So, maybe "lose job" isn't perfect, but it fits thematically. Their choices were a 32 year old who had never played a full series before (2-2 in '04) or this supposed money goalie or whatever...they went for the unknown quantity over what they knew about Osgood...

I just love that being signed as a backup to Legace and Hasek before taking the starter job and back stopping a team to two cup finals and winning one somehow is to that goalies detriment in your world.

"Forgetting" to mention that Legace was 5th in Vezina voting that year is just top-notch

 

[sr edler]

You have to wonder how common it is someone gets offer-sheeted but declines to sign, and thus we (the public) never hear about it. Because normally we only hear about it when the player signs on, right?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Joseph definitely was a choker.

It's not just the choking in 2011 finals. He did the same thing in the Chicago series the year before and the year before that. He just didn't have the mental strength. He was an incredibly nervous goalie (which he admits himself).

I mean Farkas likes to talk about Osgood losing his job. So why not talk about Luongo losing his job the season after going to the cup finals?

Like I said I liked Luongo but between 08-13 he wasn't the best playoff goalie in the world. It's also incredible sad that his best playoff performances was wasted on losing causes (07 and 16).

Someone has linked these two together before and I can kinda see it

You have to wonder how common it is someone gets offer-sheeted but declines to sign, and thus we (the public) never hear about it. Because normally we only hear about it when the player signs on, right?

It’s kinda extremely bad form if he had disclosed this while playing. I don’t know that’s my sense on that matter.