OT: Los Angeles Angels Talk

[Anaheim4ever]

This is the result of an owner basically ignoring scouting and development for years. It's going to get even worse when Ohtani prices himself out of the Angels' budget.

What's even worse about that is Arte won't let them trade Ohtani until it's too late, he's gonna milk as much marketing and international market profits as he can before trading him or letting him walk.
I'm now starting to see Arte free agent signings as marketing for ticket sales and HRs are more marketable than pitching.

If he cared about winning he'd he have signed OC native Gerrit Cole instead of a 3B who's always missing around 30 games a year in Rendon. Before the Angels Rendon was already a guy who never plays 150+ games a year, he wasn't gonna suddenly get more durable in his 30s.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

This is the result of an owner basically ignoring scouting and development for years. It's going to get even worse when Ohtani prices himself out of the Angels' budget.

You're missing the most important point about the owner ignoring the GM.

The last winning team (over .500) and playoff team was under GM Dipoto. Three out of four seasons were over .500. Dipoto quit b/c the owner just wouldn't listen to the power structure.

Two GM's along with six and half years later, the Angels have been abysmal. The owner still wants to pay for sluggers and not pitching for the next two GMs in Eppler and Minisian. Eppler was more of a "Yes man" for Arter and Minisian is butting heads with owner Arte as Minisian drafted pitchers in the first 20 rounds of last year's draft, iirc.

The owner doesn't want to go over the luxury tax b/c he doesn't want to lose profits. Arte is still benefiting from signing Pujols to a $254 mil deal for 10 years. He used Pujols to raise the price for a tv network renewal from then Fox Sports West to a $3 billion, 20-year contract. As long as Arte sees people coming to the park, he doesn't care about what fans think b/c he still sees profit there.

 

[Deuce22]

You're missing the most important point about the owner ignoring the GM.

The last winning team (over .500) and playoff team was under GM Dipoto. Three out of four seasons were over .500. Dipoto quit b/c the owner just wouldn't listen to the power structure.

Two GM's along with six and half years later, the Angels have been abysmal. The owner still wants to pay for sluggers and not pitching for the next two GMs in Eppler and Minisian. Eppler was more of a "Yes man" for Arter and Minisian is butting heads with owner Arte as Minisian drafted pitchers in the first 20 rounds of last year's draft, iirc.

The owner doesn't want to go over the luxury tax b/c he doesn't want to lose profits. Arte is still benefiting from signing Pujols to a $254 mil deal for 10 years. He used Pujols to raise the price for a tv network renewal from then Fox Sports West to a $3 billion, 20-year contract. As long as Arte sees people coming to the park, he doesn't care about what fans think b/c he still sees profit there.

DiPoto quit because he lost a power struggle with Scioscia. DiPoto is a better GM than his successors, but if was still here, the problems would not be solved. You are ignoring the fact that the Angel farm system has produced very few major league regulars (especially pitchers) during Arte's ownership. Relying on FA signings and trades to build a team isn't sustainable.

 

[MMC]

Minisian is butting heads with owner Arte as Minisian drafted pitchers in the first 20 rounds of last year's draft, iirc.

There's no reason to think this

 

[Bender66]

none of this matters. Next yr is new ESPN tv deal. All teams get a slice of that big fat pie. Arte doesn't have to lift a finger or sell a single ticket to make profit next yr. No reason for him to invest in scouting, coaching, depth in the farm etc

 

[ADHB]

This is what happens when you bottom out your farm system and ignore scouting/development for years. It started to pick back up recently, but it’ll be at least a few more years before any of it impacts the major league team. You can get away with it if you expand payroll and buy in FA and trades, and buy prospects like the Dodgers did about 8-10 years ago. That can accelerate things and help bridge the gap until your system starts producing again. But Arte gonna Arte, and cheap out everywhere other than the major league payroll. If he can’t hold a press conference about it and smugly sit in front of a camera acting like a big shot, he’s not interested. So i hope he’s happy with the result.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

DiPoto quit because he lost a power struggle with Scioscia. DiPoto is a better GM than his successors, but if was still here, the problems would not be solved. You are ignoring the fact that the Angel farm system has produced very few major league regulars (especially pitchers) during Arte's ownership. Relying on FA signings and trades to build a team isn't sustainable.

Dipoto found a way around Moreno's meddling, but the meddling was still too costly. In signing Pujols, the Angels lost a first round pick. The following year, Dipoto traded for ace pitcher Greinke to avoid losing a first round pick if Greinke were signed as a FA. When FA came, owner Moreno chose to go after long ball hitter Hamilton over Greinke. Hamilton recevied a $25 mil AAV, which was what Greinke was asking for as well. It was then that Dipoto realized that Moreno won't spend high dollar on a pitcher. The signing of FA slugger Hamilton cost the Angels a consecutive first round pick.

The first time Dipoto could draft in the first round, he drafted a pitcher. In 2014, LHP Newcomb was picked 15th overall. In 2015, C Taylor Ward was picked 26th overall. Ward is one of our top hitters on the team today, including a better OBP than Trout! I would have never saw that coming, but Dipoto said he drafted Ward b/c of his hitting. Dipoto only got in two 1st round picks in his four-year tenure as GM for the Angels.

Angels
Year	GM	PCT	Run Scored	Runs Allowed	Diff
2012	DiPoto	0.549	767	699	68
2013	DiPoto	0.481	733	737	-4
2014	DiPoto	0.605	773	630	143	Playoffs
2015	DiPoto	0.525	661	675	-14
2016	Eppler	0.457	717	727	-10
2017	Eppler	0.494	710	709	1
2018	Eppler	0.494	721	722	-1
2019	Eppler	0.461	769	868	-99
2020	Eppler	0.433	294	321	-27	60 games season
2021	Minisian	0.475	723	804	-81
2022	Minisian	0.437	347	367	-20	87 games

Pitching depth in the system was a huge problem before Dipoto came onboard. That was part of the reason he traded for ace pitcher Greinke in 2012. Dipoto couldn't find enough arms in the 2012-13 off-season after losing out on Greinke for OF Hamilton. That's when Dipoto started trading away positional players for cost controlled pitchers.

2013-14 off-sesaon

Nov: Signed reliever Joe Smith to a 3-year contract.​

Nov: Traded OFs Grichuk and fan fav Bourjos for 3B Freese and relief P Fernando Salas.​

Dec: Traded OF Trumbo for LHP Skaggs and P Hector Santiago.​

2014-15 off-season

Nov: Traded C Conger for RHP Tropeano and minor league C Carlos Perez​

Dec: Traded fan fav 2B Kendrick for LHP Heaney.​

That's a plethora of cost controlled pitchers to buy time for the org.

Here are the next first round picks after Dipoto's departure:

2016: C Thaiss, 16th OA (Eppler)​

2017: OF Adell, 10th OA​

2018: OF Adams, 17th OA​

2019: SS Wilson, 15th OA​

2020: LHP Detmers, 10th OA​

2021: RHP Bachman, 9th OA (Minisian)​

Eppler kept going after bats than to stock the pitching pipeline. Adell really looked like BPA in his draft. The 2019 draft where the Angels passed on four pitchers (Rutledge, Priester, Thompson, Kirby) for SS Wilson and then turned around to package him away to sweeten a salary dump was a waste! Finally, in Eppler's fifth season, he drafts LHP Detmers and he threw a no-hitter for us this season!

Eppler traded away P Newcomb for SS Simba (Simmons). He also traded away a prospect pitcher to acquire Upton.

Sure, Arte can keep signing bats, but Eppler didn't know how to create balance with pitching like Dipoto did.

As for Minisian, he got railroaded by Eppler and it'll take some time to recover, especially if Arte won't spend money on a high end starting pitcher! Eppler did do one thing great, though, he won the Ohtani sweepstakes!

Still with the team in 2021

P Jamie Barria (2013 int'l signee)​

P Jose Suarez (2014 int'l signee)​

OF Ward (2015 draftee)​

INF Fletcher (2015 draftee)​

I would feel far more comfortable with Dipoto being GM and stocking up our cupboard. Dipoto went to Seattle who was also dire in their prospect pool.

Seattle's 2015 prospect org ranking: 23rd by Baseball Prospects
Seattles' 2022 prospect org ranking (pre-season): 2nd by mlb.com

Mariners
Year	GM	PCT	Run Scored	Runs Allowed	Diff
2016	DiPoto	0.531	768	707	61
2017	DiPoto	0.481	733	737	-4
2018	DiPoto	0.549	773	630	143
2019	DiPoto	0.420	661	675	-14	60 games total	Rebuild
2020	DiPoto	0.450	717	727	-10		Rebuild
2021	DiPoto	0.556	710	709	1		Rebuild
2022	DiPoto	0.517	721	722	-1	87 games

But with Arte, Dipoto probably couldn't be as successful back in Anaheim as he is with Seattle. He'd still be better than Eppler. It's too early to say about Minisian.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

I honestly don't care to focus on someone who was Two Whole GMs ago.
We are now on GM Minasian, Eppler was fired years ago and Dipoto even longer ago.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I honestly don't care to focus on someone who was Two Whole GMs ago.
We are now on GM Minasian, Eppler was fired years ago and Dipoto even longer ago.

The response wasn't for you. Here's the reason I responded:

DiPoto quit because he lost a power struggle with Scioscia. DiPoto is a better GM than his successors, but if was still here, the problems would not be solved. You are ignoring the fact that the Angel farm system has produced very few major league regulars (especially pitchers) during Arte's ownership. Relying on FA signings and trades to build a team isn't sustainable.

I just proved Dipoto found a way around Arte's meddling and lack of a farm team, including taking away two first round picks in consecutive seasons. Dipoto also found a way to finish over .500 with a new organization, Seattle, who also had a bad farm team.

Two GM's later, neither one has yet to figure out how to work around Arte like Dipoto did... not that Eppler tried.

 

[Deuce22]

The response wasn't for you. Here's the reason I responded:



I just proved Dipoto found a way around Arte's meddling and lack of a farm team, including taking away two first round picks in consecutive seasons. Dipoto also found a way to finish over .500 with a new organization, Seattle, who also had a bad farm team.

Two GM's later, neither one has yet to figure out how to work around Arte like Dipoto did... not that Eppler tried.

All that you "proved" was that DiPito was competent and better than Eppler. Minasian has yet to be decided. And I had already said that. So what you "proved" was something I had already said. The Angels under DiPito were mediocre and he fled to a place where he could actually run the franchise.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

11-33 over their last 44. It’s damn near impossible for a baseball team to be this bad.

At this point, since I know Arte is never gonna sell, I’ve been transported back in time to my teenage years in the late 2000s as a Raider fan where I simply waited for Al to die so I could see the franchise move forward

 

[KaseMeOutside]

The angels are a great example of what happens if you don't build the right way and take short cuts. They should be embarrassed by what their farm system has generated since Trout

They're completely wasting the careers of two transcendent players

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Nice to see the All-Star break didn’t seem to change much of anything.

Feel like I’m just beating a dead horse at this point. 12-38 in their last 50, which is unfathomable if you’re not openly tanking, let alone if you employ two of the greatest baseball players to ever step on a field. And of course the year it looks like the Angels are finally going to bottom out…6-team draft lottery implemented next year! f*** you, Manfred

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Arte Moreno has destroyed my enjoyment of baseball. He is wasting the careers of 2 transcendent players, I honestly hope both get traded it's the only path to fixing this shit and they deserve to play meaningful games

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Arte Moreno has destroyed my enjoyment of baseball. He is wasting the careers of 2 transcendent players, I honestly hope both get traded it's the only path to fixing this shit and they deserve to play meaningful games

That's the thing that kills you though, you know he won't. I'll eat crow if it happens, but Arte is going to milk every last dollar of revenue out of Shohei until he leaves for a compensatory draft pick.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

That's the thing that kills you though, you know he won't. I'll eat crow if it happens, but Arte is going to milk every last dollar of revenue out of Shohei until he leaves for a compensatory draft pick.

Yep. Angels are like a much worse version of Edmonton Oilers. McDavid and Draisaitl vs Trout and Ohtani.
At least the Oilers can reach the playoffs.

 

[tomd]

It's a cautionary tale for Verbeek and the Ducks...if you don't build the foundation with a deep farm system then nothing else matters. $10 million players with no support is not the way to build a winner.

 

[MMC]

It's a cautionary tale for Verbeek and the Ducks...if you don't build the foundation with a deep farm system then nothing else matters. $10 million players with no support is not the way to build a winner.

More like a cautionary tale for the Samuelis

 

[Hockey Duckie]

It's a cautionary tale for Verbeek and the Ducks...if you don't build the foundation with a deep farm system then nothing else matters. $10 million players with no support is not the way to build a winner.

Eppler's drafting was crap. Traded away a 1st rounder to entice a salary dump trade.

Under Eppler, drafting and MLB roster was terrible. I thought he implemented what Arte wanted, lots and lots of slugging. Didn't prioritize the MLB pitching nor in the draft until his last draft with Detmers. But give Eppler unlimited monies like the Mets did and you get a different result.

We're paying about $27.5 mil for Upton to not play with us. Rendon's been oft injured for a $36.5 mil player. That's $60 mil on two players who aren't doing much for the Angels. But owner Moreno is okay with it b/c he likes slugging and Rendon's name carries a lot of advertising weight like Pujols did when Moreno signed him.

Arte not willing to go over the competitive balance tax threshold, aka luxury tax, is what is hurting the Angels' chances of ever being competitive. Arte wants most of his monies in sluggers and staying beneath the luxury tax means no money for actual pitching. Eppler is proving with unlimited money, he can literally buy you a winning team.

 

[terranraida]

Trout with a crazy back condition and Ohtani apparently not looking to resign. Sure makes it hard to be a fan of this team. Disney may have sold to Arte, but it's painfully aware what a mickey mouse organization this franchise really is.

 

[Sean Garrity]

Trout with a crazy back condition and Ohtani apparently not looking to resign. Sure makes it hard to be a fan of this team. Disney may have sold to Arte, but it's painfully aware what a mickey mouse organization this franchise really is.

I don't know why Trout resigned, he must really love the anonymity that he get's in Southern California. Ohtani seems different, IIRC he basically signed here because we guaranteed he could play both ways. Now that he's proven that he's elite at both, and with the shitstorm that is the Angels there's no reason for him to stay here. It's sad, but I wouldn't have blamed Trout for leaving and won't blame Ohtani for leaving as well. We've successfully wasted the best player in baseball and the best 2-way player in baseball ON THE SAME TEAM. It's ridiculous.

 

[Rybread86]

Arte Moreno has destroyed my enjoyment of baseball. He is wasting the careers of 2 transcendent players, I honestly hope both get traded it's the only path to fixing this shit and they deserve to play meaningful games

Trading both would be good for the players but won't fix what's wrong in Anaheim... or Los Angeles of Anaheim.

Moreno is the problem with the Angels. Until he is fixed, the team won't be.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

They should trade Ohtani now, but they won't until Arte milks every cent out of him...I agree until he sells the team they will never get it right because there is no plan

 

[terranraida]

Trading both would be good for the players but won't fix what's wrong in Anaheim... or Los Angeles of Anaheim.

Moreno is the problem with the Angels. Until he is fixed, the team won't be.

I swear the angels are cursed, or this is the most brazen attempt at a reverse Major Leagues where the team tanks to crash value so arte sells to save his bank instead.

I mean, syndergaard is having almost as bad a season as when he played hurt and tore his muscle - rendon had season ending surgery for the second consecutive year, the pitching staff? Injured.

Ohtani can't carry this team alone and I'll be sad to see him go, but at least he can get a legitimate shot at the postseason.

 

[bsu]

I'm not an Angels fan (wasn't born into it) but it's fun being able to see two generational players for 2 bucks down the road. 2 dollar tickets to see two legends like that will never happen again anywhere most likely take advantage!!!