GDT: Lightning @ Devils - 6:45 PM - MSG

guitarguyvic

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Mar 31, 2010
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What is this team's identity? Until that's addressed and fixed, even if it's unpopular, expect more of this clown show.
I have brought this up that it’s been the biggest challenge since the Lou era ended. And it’s not just the team on the ice, what is this organization’s identity?

Certain people here scoff at the idea of team chemistry being a key component of success. The closest thing we had to real chemistry and an identity since Lou left was two years ago with the balanced lineup of homegrown talent and immense speed. The problem there is that speed alone is not good enough to be a real contender. So we traded away pieces to address areas of need but the replacements don’t seem to have the chemistry. I look at our top four forwards and they have these flashes of individual talent, sometimes together on the ice, but it never feels consistently cohesive. Contrast that with a line like ZZ pops from years ago…that line was a force, together as a unit, almost from the very beginning for three straight seasons. We have at least four top line talent forwards, yet nothing resembling a ZZ pops line. This is a big problem that rarely gets acknowledged. There’s also the issue of how our forwards don’t seem to have a ton of talent outside of individual offensive production. I believe this can be taught and addressed with the right coaching and systems, but perhaps there’s still a limit there that hampers team success. Organizationally, what do we stand for? Who are the kinds of players we target? “Talented individuals” is not specific enough. There needs to be cohesiveness from the ownership all the way down to the towel boy. That’s what builds a consistent expectation and lifts everyone higher than their individual talent.
 
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Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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Oh, did you have to get in twice?

Maybe the common denominator is that the team plays goalie killing terrible team defense for years.

So, like average goaltending isn't good enough, and now elite goaltending isn't good enough. Maybe we should spend money on Shesterkin to prove that the best goaltender in the league can't fix the garbage play on front of him.

But you're probably right: it's just bad goaltending for the last ten years, regardless of who is in net.

lol, the Devils do not have elite goaltending this year, and it's funny to characterize the last few years of Devils' goaltending as average.
 

Captain3rdLine

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Sep 24, 2020
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The devils have at minimum average goalies this year. Any scapegoating of goaltending at this point is unhinged apologetics for the rest of the team and should be rightfully mocked.
There is an absolutely huge gap between elite and average goaltending. He clearly wasn’t suggesting the devils goaltending was bad this year
 

Bleedred

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I would say Markstrom has been average to solid. The first two Allen games were probably two of the best defensive efforts since 2022-2023.

But while tonight wasn’t a game Allen seems to have regularly, it wasn’t a game that’s super rare from him either.

About 5 of the goals were either unlucky or no chance, but probably 3 of them weren’t good. All of the goals in the middle that they scored in the 2nd were no chance goals, but the first and last goals they scored that period were not good.
 
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Triumph

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I have brought this up that it’s been the biggest challenge since the Lou era ended. And it’s not just the team on the ice, what is this organization’s identity?

They play strong defense and have a strong offense. They also have a goaltender.

Certain people here scoff at the idea of team chemistry being a key component of success.

Absolutely nobody scoffs at that. That is a strawman. I scoff at the notion of team identity being important - obviously the team has to believe they have an identity, but the identity from the outside is functionally 'being good, making the right play, and making the courageous play'. That's it. I don't work for the team so I don't have to care about the ins and outs of how the coaches and GM build a team that does that.

The closest thing we had to real chemistry and an identity since Lou left was two years ago with the balanced lineup of homegrown talent and immense speed.

Goalpost shift. Are chemistry and identity the same thing or two different things?

The problem there is that speed alone is not good enough to be a real contender.

The Devils didn't just play with speed in 2023, they also played very solid defense.

So we traded away pieces to address areas of need but the replacements don’t seem to have the chemistry. I look at our top four forwards and they have these flashes of individual talent, sometimes together on the ice, but it never feels consistently cohesive. Contrast that with a line like ZZ pops from years ago…that line was a force, together as a unit, almost from the very beginning for three straight seasons. We have at least four top line talent forwards, yet nothing resembling a ZZ pops line. This is a big problem that rarely gets acknowledged.

It isn't a big problem at all. ZZPops was together much less than you remember. Keefe discovered, as Ruff did, that Meier and Hughes do not work well together. The Devils never really realized that Kovalchuk and Zajac can't play together either, but that's in the past too.

There’s also the issue of how our forwards don’t seem to have a ton of talent outside of individual offensive production. I believe this can be taught and addressed with the right coaching and systems, but perhaps there’s still a limit there that hampers team success. Organizationally, what do we stand for? Who are the kinds of players we target? “Talented individuals” is not specific enough. There needs to be cohesiveness from the ownership all the way down to the towel boy. That’s what builds a consistent expectation and lifts everyone higher than their individual talent.

The Devils have targeted a type of player for the last 2 seasons and I don't know how this is not obvious. They want big players who are strong defensively. They have almost exclusively targeted this sort of player - the exceptions are Toffoli and Cotter.

What is Tampa's identity? They're a good team who has strong offensive players and a good defensive system, and a strong goalie. They're well-coached so they know what they're supposed to be doing. That's where the Devils want to get to. The 90s aren't coming back, the trapping Devils aren't coming back, but Keefe wants to bring back strong defensive play with fewer risks and more simplicity in the Devils' game, and for the first 6 games of the season it looked like he had done that. Identities aren't built in a day, but I'm sure if the Devils start winning regularly again, they will have found one.
 

Hisch13r

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May 16, 2012
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Holy shit Palat's so bad his bar for overall net rating doesn't even show up it's so low

Screenshot 2024-10-22 at 11.33.25 PM.png
 

Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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The devils have at minimum average goalies this year. Any scapegoating of goaltending at this point is unhinged apologetics for the rest of the team and should be rightfully mocked.

Both of their goalies are 34. I think the Devils probably have average to slightly above average goaltending, but the goalies might both be finished - it's happened before.

The very obvious point is that the Devils almost certainly do not have elite goaltending this season.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
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Both of their goalies are 34. I think the Devils probably have average to slightly above average goaltending, but the goalies might both be finished - it's happened before.

The very obvious point is that the Devils almost certainly do not have elite goaltending this season.
No but these guys, especially Markstrom better be above Vitek two years ago at least.
 
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Hisch13r

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his start to this season might as well be this:


It's wayyyyyyy worse than that. Johnsson couldn't score but at worst played the opposition to about an even game. Goal differential of 20 GF to 21 GA with a 52% xG and 53% CF. Palat's not producing and getting his face smashed in while getting outscored like crazy.

No but these guys, especially Markstrom better be above Vitek two years ago at least.

I don't think that's a given for either guy. They might and they also might not. I do think yeah they'll need to be as good or better because this team plays far worse hockey than that team did.
 
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MadDevil

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I would be happy with a "please just don't shit yourself" level of goaltending, which for the most part we've gotten so far this year. Hopefully the team in front of them figures their shit out so they don't have to be great for us to win.
 

NjDevsRR

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12 years without any consistent success is absurd. I can't believe it actually.
Well, 2013-2021 is pretty understandable given the state the franchise was in roster, prospect and draft capital wise. It was just natural to end up in that scenario after two decades of success. So I wouldn’t lump that into what we are now seeing the last four years. Thats just adding unnecessary burden ontop of the situation. Those dark years was expected and not surprising in a salary cap world.
 

billingtons ghost

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Nov 29, 2010
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I would say Markstrom has been average to solid. The first two Allen games were probably two of the best defensive efforts since 2022-2023.

But while tonight wasn’t a game Allen seems to have regularly, it wasn’t a game that’s super rare from him either.

About 5 of the goals were either unlucky or no chance, but probably 3 of them weren’t good. All of the goals in the middle that they scored in the 2nd were no chance goals, but the first and last goals they scored that period were not good.
I'd say Markstrom is just as advertised: elite at times, almost always above average.
I'd say Allen has been what he is: an average goaltender most of the time, sometimes very good, occasional turds

There's been very little to complain about between the pipes this year.

They were doubled up in shots in midway thru the second and any other garbage in the third was just game effects of the team mailing it in.

We lost to literally the worst goalie in the league tonight, playing in front of a vastly superior team in terms of team play.
 
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Whaddagoal

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This game was a kick in the balls BEFORE the refs added to it, and when there was a sliver of hope/excitement of clawing back into it they just kicked again in the balls. Refs should be fined for influencing the game in such a way during that mid 3rd period push.
 

NjDevsRR

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We got 3 pts out of 4 against Capitals this season while they handily defeated Vegas, strong win against Dallas and destroyed Philly. Does that not count?

I get the doomer vibes but cmon now. Cant have it both ways

Do I think Caps will be a great team? No. But they had a strong start to the season and their only loss was to NJ.
 
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Devs3cups

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This game was a kick in the balls and the refs added to it, when there was a sliver of hope/excitement of clawing back into it. Refs should be fined for influencing the game in such a way during that mid 3rd period push.
Or the team could not allow 4 straight goals in about 8 minutes and have to rely on the refs and another late game heroic comeback. Take control of the game against an opponent playing their backup on a back to back. It's that simple.
 
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NjDevsRR

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We also beat Utah who is off to a good start and who also defeated the best team in the league in this early season

Does that not count either?
 

Devs3cups

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We got 3 pts out of 4 against Capitals this season while they handily defeated Vegas, strong win against Dallas and destroyed Philly. Does that not count?

I get the doomer vibes but cmon now. Cant have it both ways

Do I think Caps will be a great team? No. But they had a strong start to the season and their only loss was to NJ.
We also beat Utah who is off to a good start and who also defeated the best team in the league in this early season

Does that not count either?
We got beat by the Leafs, who just got beat 6-2 by the Blue Jackets tonight.
 
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NjDevsRR

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Listen. I get the doomerism. I will be there in a months time if things don’t change.

But Id let up a little on that doomer gas pedal, for now.

We got beat by the Leafs, who just got beat 6-2 by the Blue Jackets tonight.
Basically proving my point in the reverse fashion

Lots of narratives can be set on both sides at this early junction

But bottomline is we are in week 3 of the season. Lets everyone pull on the reigns a bit
 
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Devs3cups

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Basically proving my point in the reverse fashion

Lots of narratives can be set on both sides

But bottomline is we are in week 3 of the season. Lets every pull on the reigns
Utah also just lost to the Sens 4-0. We beat the Sens not even a week ago. Maybe Utah isn't that good.
 
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ZachaFlockaFlame

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Aug 24, 2020
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I mean realistically they only have to be a top 3 team in the Metro, I can see 5 teams coming from the Atlantic. The Senators actually look like they might get their shit together this season and they're winning without Ullmark currently. It'll probably come down to us or the Caps since I think Brindamour is the best coach in the league and will get the Canes somef***inghow even though they have Roslovic and Kotkaniemi in their top 6 and well, the Rags are a lock and probably the Cup favorite right now

Utah also just lost to the Sens 4-0. We beat the Sens not even a week ago. Maybe Utah isn't that good.

The Sens were better than us in that game lol, Markstrom stole it
 
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