Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[loadie]

Fixed makes it even better.

Actually, we're both wrong. He only won 7, but Tom Johnson won the Norris in 58/59. I missed that when looking on hockeydb.

 

[Dangler99*]

Actually, we're both wrong. He only won 7, but Tom Johnson won the Norris in 58/59. I missed that when looking on hockeydb.

I was talking about Orr. He won 8 straight Norris Trophies.

 

[norrisnick]

The old probably 90% position used by those who never bother to check and try to bluff their way along.

Let's check the Detroit Red Wings numbers since Lidstrom was constrained to a team and not influenced by the rest of the league.

Regular season, 82 games, both seasons. Lidstrom played 81 games and 80 games respectively.

2003-04 the Red Wings totaled 944 PIM, 2005-06 Red Wings totaled 1103 PIM. So while the Red Wings collectively, with Lidstrom, saw their PIMs increase by ~ 15%, Lidstrom's PIMs almost tripled. The Red Wings adapted much better than Lidstrom.

No crime, same thing happened with Doug Harvey as he aged.

Wasn't that part of the obstruction crackdown where the league floated a dvd focusing specifically on all the things Lidstrom did and made them penalties?

 

[danincanada]

If you look at Harvey's PIM totals you will see spikes followed by strong decreases three times during his career. Twice Harvey adjusted, the third time a season after his last Norris, the speed of the league had caught up to and surpassed his age and Harvey left the NHL, spent a few years in the minors then returned for a last hurrah post expansion when there was a talent void. Harvey left the NHL because there was sufficient talent to replace him and returned to a league twice its size because the talent was lacking. Same thing happened with other great dmen, Chelios being the latest.

Lidstrom is no different.

Please expand on this. Are you saying that both Harvey and Chelios got to play longer careers because the young talent pool was not deep enough for the league at that time, and that the same thing is going on with Lidstrom now?

I hope not because that would be ridiculous. Lidstrom just won the Norris for being judged the best overall defenseman. He is not still in the league simply because there is a lack of new talent. You're really missing something amazing and disrespecting what he is accomplishing if you just label it as something being wrong with the rest of the league.

Also, as someone who watches the Red Wings I don't recall Lidstrom getting a lot of penalties for being too slow. Most of them are common defensive zone penalties that most other defenseman take. In fact, it's still extremely rare to see him get caught out of position or get beat 1 on 1. Us Red Wings fans are so used to seeing him NEVER get beat that we accept that he has slowed down somewhat because he's no longer as perfect as he once was. The man just played 2 full 82 game seasons worth of hockey and only averaged 22 minutes in penalties per season so I see no basis this additional "food for thought" from you.

 

[Eisen]

In 2002, he had a Norris and a Conn Smythe on a stacked Red Wings Cup team. How much more of a peak do you need?


Lidstrom was 27 when Konstantinov suffered his accident. I thought it was pretty standard for defenseman to take longer to mature and become elite. So, it's no surprise that he wasn't dominating yet at 24...25..26..

Bourque did though, and I'm a huge fan of Lids. It's all criticizing on a VERY high standard.

 

[toob]

dunno about old timers like Harvey
impossible to compare effectively

but i would take Coffey above Lids
i dont care if he did suck defensively
that kind of offense is on a whole other level

i think Lids matches up well against any other post-Orr dman though
maybe not better than them but right with them

 

[Steve Kournianos]

My eyeballs tell me two things. No way did Lidstrom deserve the Norris this year, and no way at 41 years of age is he going to be catching Bourque, let alone Harvey, in all time ranking.

1. Orr
2. Shore
3. Harvey
4. Bourque
5. Lidstrom
6. Potvin

None of this is a slight against Nick. The guy is a legend, and being the 5th greatest defenseman in the history of the game is not exactly an "insult", lol.

Then who deserved it? Weber? You clearly didnt watch the Preds this year because Suter was their No. 1 all season long and outplayed Weber for long stretches. It's no surprise that Weber and Suter also had a Vezina-caliber goalie in front of him.

Chara had avery good season but what did he do to distinguish himself from Lidstrom? At no point during the season was Chara a favorite. Letang was the lead horse for the 1st half, but Lidstrom pulled away when the Wings maintained a steady pace despite key injuries to Datsyuk and Rafalski.

If Chara should have won this season because of his +/- and TOI, then Stevens should have won it instead of Bourque in 1994. Stevens was only a league-leading +53 that year and 73 points while taking almost 200 less shots than Bourque.

 

[The Saw Is the Law]

I never saw Shore or Harvey playing and I dont know enough about them. But Lidas right after Bourque sounds good to me.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Considerations

Then who deserved it? Weber? You clearly didnt watch the Preds this year because Suter was their No. 1 all season long and outplayed Weber for long stretches. It's no surprise that Weber and Suter also had a Vezina-caliber goalie in front of him.

Chara had avery good season but what did he do to distinguish himself from Lidstrom? At no point during the season was Chara a favorite. Letang was the lead horse for the 1st half, but Lidstrom pulled away when the Wings maintained a steady pace despite key injuries to Datsyuk and Rafalski.

If Chara should have won this season because of his +/- and TOI, then Stevens should have won it instead of Bourque in 1994. Stevens was only a league-leading +53 that year and 73 points while taking almost 200 less shots than Bourque.

Problem with Suter was that he missed 12 games and took a bit of time to get back into game shape when he returned. Usually a Norris candidate has to play a full season especially when there is another candidate on the same team who can be viewed as having carried the team during the absence which was the case with Weber.

Kris Letang. Lidstrom getting credit for the Red Wings performance while Datsyuk and Rafalski were hurt. Guess you did not see how well Letang played after the injuries to Crosby and Malkin ended their seasons but the Penguins did not collapse. Letang went back to a more basic game without the flash but he certainly did just as much if not more than Lidstrom with less support during the second half..

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Problem with Suter was that he missed 12 games and took a bit of time to get back into game shape when he returned. Usually a Norris candidate has to play a full season especially when there is another candidate on the same team who can be viewed as having carried the team during the absence which was the case with Weber.

Kris Letang. Lidstrom getting credit for the Red Wings performance while Datsyuk and Rafalski were hurt. Guess you did not see how well Letang played after the injuries to Crosby and Malkin ended their seasons but the Penguins did not collapse. Letang went back to a more basic game without the flash but he certainly did just as much if not more than Lidstrom with less support during the second half..

I dont understand this post. Are you saying Weber had a better year than Suter?

I watched almost every Pens game this season. Letang was not a Norris-caliber defenseman in the 2nd half of the season and it had nothing to do with point production. You can argue that Enstrom might have even been better from wire to wire. You can even say Letang regressed defensively, and it showed in the playoffs.

 

[danincanada]

Kris Letang. Lidstrom getting credit for the Red Wings performance while Datsyuk and Rafalski were hurt. Guess you did not see how well Letang played after the injuries to Crosby and Malkin ended their seasons but the Penguins did not collapse. Letang went back to a more basic game without the flash but he certainly did just as much if not more than Lidstrom with less support during the second half..

After the All-Star break:

Nicklas Lidstrom GP 33 G 5 A 15 Pts 20 +/- +1 PIM 8

Kris Letang GP 32 G 1 A 8 Pts 9 +/- -7 PIM 43

So you would have given the Norris to Letang?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Without Suter, Crosby/Malkin.

I dont understand this post. Are you saying Weber had a better year than Suter?

I watched almost every Pens game this season. Letang was not a Norris-caliber defenseman in the 2nd half of the season and it had nothing to do with point production. You can argue that Enstrom might have even been better from wire to wire. You can even say Letang regressed defensively, and it showed in the playoffs.

Weber had a more complete year than Suter who missed 12 games. If the Predators had fallen completely apart without Suter then Suter might deserve consideration. But the Predators did not fall apart without Suter due to Weber's play.

Letang in the second half of the season. How many games did Crosby and Malkin play all season? 41 and 43 respectively. Both missing most of the second half. So Letang and the Penguins had to play accordingly.The opposition was able to spend more time in the Penguins zone with their top offensive players forcing Letang to play a more basic game which he did and the Penguins team performance did not suffer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good point about Suter missing 12 games. That's why he barely got any votes. But the Letang pointnis bizarre - he pretty much showed that he only looked like a Norris candidate because of Crosby

 

[Canadiens1958]

Kris Letang

Good point about Suter missing 12 games. That's why he barely got any votes. But the Letang pointnis bizarre - he pretty much showed that he only looked like a Norris candidate because of Crosby

The point was made that injuries to Datsyuk and Rafalski gave a perspective on Lidstrom's performance since it compensated for the loses of two key players.

If such consideration is to be made then it is only fair that the performance of Kris Letang be evaluated according to the loses suffered by his team - Crosby and Malkin by looking at the changes he had to make in his game and in his team role. The Penguins did remarkably well and Bylsma earned appropriate honours, so Letang merits consideration.

This brings up the key tangent point. If Kris Letang gets reasonable consideration then what does this save about the overall depth and talent levels amongst dmen that are viewed as challengers and successors to Nicklas Lidstrom?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The point was made that injuries to Datsyuk and Rafalski gave a perspective on Lidstrom's performance since it compensated for the loses of two key players.

If such consideration is to be made then it is only fair that the performance of Kris Letang be evaluated according to the loses suffered by his team - Crosby and Malkin by looking at the changes he had to make in his game and in his team role. The Penguins did remarkably well and Bylsma earned appropriate honours, so Letang merits consideration.

This brings up the key tangent point. If Kris Letang gets reasonable consideration then what does this save about the overall depth and talent levels amongst dmen that are viewed as challengers and successors to Nicklas Lidstrom?

Exactly.

Didn't someone start a thread here about how poor a group of dmen there was for Norris consideration back in February?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Orr

Harvey
Bourque
Lidstrom
Potvin
Shore


Lidstrom, is without a doubt, a Great player but IMO he is only the 4th best of all time and that is by no means even close to an insult.
Anyone who gets upset or takes it an insult is quite frankly an idiot IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

By the end of the season, Letang really didn't get Norris consideration.

But yes, this was an unusually bad year for defensemen. Keith's Cup hangover and injuries to Doughty, Pronger, and (yes) Green basically devastated the field.

 

[Epsilon]

No one should have expected Letang to continue on the same clip he was on when Crosby was healthy but the fact remains his play dropped off quite a bit even in spite of that, especially relative to the rest of his teammates. I seem to recall one stretch where Pittsburgh was winning multiple 5-1 and 6-1 games without any points at all from Letang.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

By the end of the season, Letang really didn't get Norris consideration.But yes, this was an unusually bad year for defensemen. Keith's Cup hangover and injuries to Doughty, Pronger, and (yes) Green basically devastated the field.

And yet he got 2 first place votes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And yet he got 2 first place votes.

A few writers base their votes on early season hype. See also Dustin Buff (not going to try to spell his last name).

I don't see how Letang getting a couple of votes is proof that "defensemen aren't what they used to be." I do agree with people who say that this past year was a historically weak year for defensemen specifically.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A few writers base their votes on early season hype. See also Dustin Buff (not going to try to spell his last name).

I don't see how Letang getting a couple of votes is proof that "defensemen aren't what they used to be." I do agree with people who say that this past year was a historically weak year for defensemen specifically.

I don't either.

Just saying, its hard to make the case Letang got no Norris consideration by the end of the season when 2 voters put him first.

 

[norrisnick]

Orr

Harvey
Bourque
Lidstrom
Potvin
Shore


Lidstrom, is without a doubt, a Great player but IMO he is only the 4th best of all time and that is by no means even close to an insult.
Anyone who gets upset or takes it an insult is quite frankly an idiot IMO.

Just so long as no Bruin or Hab fans get upset if I slot him 2 spots higher.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Just so long as no Bruin or Hab fans get upset if I slot him 2 spots higher.

Fully entitled to your opinion.
Just have to be prepared to accept that it's in the minority. Just like I accept that picking Yzerman over Sakic is also in the minority around here, doesn't make my opinion wrong or make me want to change my mind.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't either.

Just saying, its hard to make the case Letang got no Norris consideration by the end of the season when 2 voters put him first.

Nah, I wouldn't say that even counts. It's too bad the voting isn't public because whoever voted him first should really have to answer for it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nah, I wouldn't say that even counts. It's too bad the voting isn't public because whoever voted him first should really have to answer for it.

I basically agree. He was an offensive defenseman whose offense went to crap when Crosby was injured halfway through the year. I mean, he was fine defensively in the second half, but better than teammates Martin or Michalek?

Who the he'll voted him first?