Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[Hardyvan123]

I honestly think Robinson and Coffey were better to be honest. Now that I think of it I have atleast 7 defenseman ranked ahead of Lidstrom... Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Potvin, Coffey, Robinson, Kelly... all because of the fact they were each very decisively better players in their prime than Lidstrom. Prime has to matter more than longevity and consistency in the long run IMO.

Okay the Robinson thing i could understand since maybe you are a Habs fan or something but Coffey, a guy who needed an introduction to his goalie on most teams he played on and was pretty one dimensional,and yes he was exceptionally good at it but next I'm going to see an argument that Housley got more points so he was more valuable.

I was looking at Coffey the other day and for such an exceptional skater he was MINUS 5 outside of his 1st two SC seasons in Edmonton with those great teams.

And we are not talking about a player who played on some bad teams or had the top defensive assignment for any significant period of time in his career.

There is a reason he only won 3 Norris trophies, think a more effective version of Mike Green

 

[Infinite Vision*]

part of that has to do with the (slight) decline that of Zetterberg and Datsyuk as well and also injuries in 09-11



nobody is favoring Yzerman over Lidstrom off comparing point totals
that would be unfair to Yzerman a forward because Lidstrom's point totals inflate his offensive contribution like most defensemen (he isnt a special exception like Orr or Coffey)

Yzerman was just the better player from 97 to 00 per season basis
and was better when actually playing until 02

and comparing forward and defensemen ranks as if there is some correspondence in a positional list to an overall list is a terrible way to look at it (that is even if we accept your rankings)

look at who was forward and who was defensemen for starters



Yzerman, Fedorov, and maybe even Shanahan pre lockout and Datsyuk and Zetterberg post lockout all have a good case to be the best Wing player during many seasons in that time frame you gave

after 02 i definitely think Fedorov was the best in 03 and Zetterberg in 08 for starters



of course they would
im almost certain if you were to poll Detroit fans who have watched a lot of both Yzerman's and Lidstrom's careers (including Yzerman in his prime) as to who the BETTER PLAYER is the results would be overwhelmingly in favor of Yzerman

only on hfboards (where award counting without contextualization seems to be a big thing) have i seen it suggested with any frequency that Lidstrom is a better player than Yzerman

That's the truth.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Okay the Robinson thing i could understand since maybe you are a Habs fan or something but Coffey, a guy who needed an introduction to his goalie on most teams he played on and was pretty one dimensional,and yes he was exceptionally good at it but next I'm going to see an argument that Housley got more points so he was more valuable.

I was looking at Coffey the other day and for such an exceptional skater he was MINUS 5 outside of his 1st two SC seasons in Edmonton with those great teams.

And we are not talking about a player who played on some bad teams or had the top defensive assignment for any significant period of time in his career.

There is a reason he only won 3 Norris trophies, think a more effective version of Mike Green

No I'm a Leafs fan. I understand how amazing Lidstrom is, I've probably watched the guy play more games than any other player in the NHL today. Yes he is the best defenseman of his time...the only problem is, I really can't honestly say he's a whole lot better than Pronger. I can't say he's been a top 3 player in the game, Robinson has. Robinson in his prime was simply better than Lidstrom was in his. Very close though between them, but Coffey is ahead IMO. The only person I've seen who apparently judges Coffey the same way I always have is plusandminus. He was better defensively than forwards who I honestly don't even think were as good as him offensively in the 80's, I'm talking players like Stastny, Savard, etc...basically everyone except Gretzky and Lemieux.

 

[canucks4ever]

IMO Lidstrom was a top 5 overall player in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007 and 2008. He's had an awesome peak, its clear that ohers just look at numbers.

1998: hasek, jagr, forsberg, selanne, lidstrom
2000: jagr, pronger, bure, lidstrom, kolzig
2001: sakic, lemieux, hasek, lidstrom, jagr
2002: theodore, iggy, naslund, lidstrom, roy/bertuzzi tied
2003: forsberg, naslund, thornton, lidstrom, maccinnis
2006: thornton, jagr, kipper, lidstrom, ovechkin/alfredsson tied
2007: crosby, broduer, lunogo, lecavlier, lidstrom/thornton tied
2008: ovechkin, malkin, lidstrom, iginla, broduer/zetterberg

 

[crazyforhockey]

Defintly top 10 in dmen........most likely as high as top 5 ever

The biggest proplem lidstrom faces is that he was so good and consistent.
a)you dont pass to his side
b) he intercepts pass
c) he is always in position so he rarely gets beat
d)he is so dominate defensivly he rarely makes footage reels either in bad plays or having to make a spectacular play after being beaten.

remember him making a play at the boards vs Cgy( a few years back)....he gambled/goofed and i think iginla got the puck and scored......I thought wow when was the last time I saw that from Lidstrom..........

thats the defensive part.....and he always seems to get pucks through and has put up numbers....great first pass .. reads the play well

to me it is always back to making the plays every time and rarely making a mistake even in the high pressure times................ Im not a redwing fan and thats my view...........so his "seemingly perfection glosses over how good and dominate he has been throughout his career"

 

[kmad]

When was Robinson a top 3 player in the game?

 

[Hardyvan123]

When was Robinson a top 3 player in the game?

That was my 1st thought reading this as well, Robinson was an excellent player but not sure that in 77 or 78, which I assume IV is referring to that he actually was one of the 3 best players in the league.

I know Robinson won the Norris in 77 but i would argue that Potvin was every bit as good as him that year as well.

 

[PB37]

Lidstrom is in the top 10 all-time for dmen ( 5-10 range, not 1 or 2 as some of suggested, lol... that's absurd ).

I would also put him somewhere in the 15-25 range for all-time best players, and probably leaning closer to 25 than 15.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When was Robinson a top 3 player in the game?

Good question.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lidstrom is in the top 10 all-time for dmen ( 5-10 range, not 1 or 2 as some of suggested, lol... that's absurd ).

I would also put him somewhere in the 15-25 range for all-time best players, and probably leaning closer to 25 than 15.

Ranking Lidstrom close to 25 among all players is more absurd than ranking him #2 among defensemen, in my opinion.

(I don't rank him #2 among defensemen myself).

 

[*Bob Richards*]

Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Bobby Hull
Mike Bossy
Hasek
Rocket Richard
Roy
Denis Potvin

So not in my personal top ten. I believe his true place is somewhere around 13-15.

 

[reaper]

Infinite,

You're making a fool out of yourself. Please stop... Ranking Coffey over Lidström is absurd. Yes, he was a great offensive force but not much more than that.

Pronger is a good player but no way near Lidström. Compare Norris votes during their career and I bet it's not even close. The only thing that Pronger is better at than Lidström is cheapshots and visiting the penaltybox.

It's very clear that you prefer offense over defense. During Lidströms career he's pretty much been the best at both. He's always been near the top in scoring for D and this while playing perfect defense and staying out of the penalty box.

It is very clear that Lidström does not get the easy pass like some of the other players on this board, maybe this will change with time when he is retired.

People always use the less competition argument and Hart voting. Please stop bringing up the Hart, it is not relevant. Defensemen don't win the Hart, Pronger winning was a fluke and much due to media hype.

Who knows how much better Lidström would have been if he started playing the same time as Borque. Maybe he would have raised his game even more if facing stiffer competition. The best you can do is outperform the other players competing and Lidström has done that for 15 years.

 

[reaper]

Lidström - 8369 points in Norris votes
Pronger - 2331 points in Norris votes

Lidström has a few extra seasons on Pronger but still it's nowhere close...

 

[Pear Juice]

I have Harvey ahead of Lidstrom for a couple of reasons.

1) He appears to have dominated his peers more than Lidstrom. He was basically the runaway best defenseman every single season of his prime, except the one year when he was injured. Lidstrom wasn't quite this dominant over his peers.

2) People who saw Harvey seem to think he was more dominant than Bourque or Lidstrom.

3) From what limited material I read from the 50s, it appears Harvey was generally thought to have surpassed Shore. Though, I would like to see more than the couple of sources that I did see.

From a skills standpoint, I think Harvey and Lidstrom were very similar but Harvey was "perfect," while Lidstrom was perfect except for the lack of a physical game. In most cases, it doesn't matter, but in a very limited set of situations, this is a disadvantage for Lidstrom. Red Wings fans have posted that Lidstrom's only weakness was handing big, physical forwards in front of the net - Harvey didn't have this weakness.

Is it enough to separate them by 10-20 spots? Certainly not in my opinion. But it's enough to separate them by 5-8 spots IMO.

Thanks. These are all reasonable arguments. I've always had a gut feeling Harvey should be in the top-10. Do you know anything about his playoff performances? I currently slot Harvey at 7 and Lidström at 10, not including goaltenders.

 

[tjcurrie]

I consider Nicklas Lidstrom to be no better now than I did last week, because I already saw enough hockey from the 2011 Regular Season to have made a fair assessment as to what it added to his career. I don't rely on the media in June to tell me how good a player was from October-April, if I have seen it with my own eyes.

Exactly. We all should know just how good a guy is or has been 20 years in. We don't need any more accolades or votes by the media to help us.

The only real question to ask here is this:

I want to win a Stanley Cup so the guy I want on my team is.....

You really could flip a coin to be honest. It's splitting hairs to really claim to know who's better. This is one of the tougher arguments in hockey and likely forever will be. Though the point of these boards is to discuss this stuff.

As for me, it's week by week. This week I'll take Bourque.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thanks. These are all reasonable arguments. I've always had a gut feeling Harvey should be in the top-10. Do you know anything about his playoff performances? I currently slot Harvey at 7 and Lidström at 10, not including goaltenders.

Harvey was great in the playoffs. It seems most people think he was the most important Canadien over the course of the 1950s dynasty. More important than Beliveau or Rocket Richard. Of course, those two men both did more outside of the dynasty.

 

[toob]

Perhaps you have more experience being a Red Wings fan than I do (30+ years) but Lidstrom is easily recognized by Detroit fans as a "better player" than Yzerman.

im not sure what the length of personal experience has to do with the question at hand (and no i dont even come close to matching yours) but from every thing ive seen and heard around Detroit and also in the hockey world in general Yzerman seems to comfortably considered only 2nd to Gordie Howe as the best Red Wing player

in fact i have seen a couple of blog posts and even an article that go ahead and rank Lidstrom 2nd but they all seem quite aware about how it will be received by readers having Yzerman 3rd and spend quite some time and effort trying to justify their ranking

if there is someone who seems to pop up as a contender for 2nd more often it is Terry Sawchuck

but do you have a poll or something im unaware of that shows this impression is incorrect?

oh and the question of who is considered the better player is different from who really is the better player but at this point both are Yzerman

a lot of great players dont get the credit they deserve
Yzerman was like that for a while but not at all anymore
his reputation was lower than it shouldve been in the media in the mid 90s
but now hes one of the most highly regarded players ever

I think that this is a more defensible argument than the one being referred to here. People tend to forget that many Detroit fans wanted to run Stvie Y out of town earleir in hsi career.

As great as Stevie Y was Lidstrom has been the better player hands down during their days in Detroit, especially when we look at regular season and playoffs.

it seems extremely unlikely that any significant amount of fans ever wanted to trade Yzerman at any time

consider that at the height of the latest trade rumors around Yzerman in the fall of 95 Yzerman was given a thunderous standing ovation by the fans while the man who wanted to move him (or wanted to seem like he wanted to move him) Scotty Bowman was roundly booed

you cannot conflate certain elements of management that did likely try to move Yzerman in the early to mid 90s with the fans (and ownership) who would simply not let it happen

 

[Pear Juice]

but do you have a poll or something im unaware of that shows this impression is incorrect?

They are not Red Wing-fanbase polls, but serious effort has been given to rank players in the History section here at HFBoards and Lidström has been ranked ahead of Yzerman by a considerable margin both times (10 and 20 spots). I would guess that a Red Wing fanbase might think differently, given that Yzerman was the captain of the franchise for two decades.

 

[Hardyvan123]

im not sure what the length of personal experience has to do with the question at hand (and no i dont even come close to matching yours) but from every thing ive seen and heard around Detroit and also in the hockey world in general Yzerman seems to comfortably considered only 2nd to Gordie Howe as the best Red Wing player

in fact i have seen a couple of blog posts and even an article that go ahead and rank Lidstrom 2nd but they all seem quite aware about how it will be received by readers having Yzerman 3rd and spend quite some time and effort trying to justify their ranking

if there is someone who seems to pop up as a contender for 2nd more often it is Terry Sawchuck

but do you have a poll or something im unaware of that shows this impression is incorrect?

oh and the question of who is considered the better player is different from who really is the better player but at this point both are Yzerman

a lot of great players dont get the credit they deserve
Yzerman was like that for a while but not at all anymore
his reputation was lower than it shouldve been in the media in the mid 90s
but now hes one of the most highly regarded players ever



it seems extremely unlikely that any significant amount of fans ever wanted to trade Yzerman at any time

consider that at the height of the latest trade rumors around Yzerman in the fall of 95 Yzerman was given a thunderous standing ovation by the fans while the man who wanted to move him (or wanted to seem like he wanted to move him) Scotty Bowman was roundly booed

you cannot conflate certain elements of management that did likely try to move Yzerman in the early to mid 90s with the fans (and ownership) who would simply not let it happen

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=34829631


found some info on it here and there were some in Detroit that question Stevie Y's commitment to team play rather than racking up points, a bit unfairly as I recall as well.

Maybe younger fans don't remember it but there definitely was a call to trade Stevie Y out of Detroit, as far as I know that never happened to Lidstrom.

I like how Yzerman turned out but i would take Lidstrom over Stevie Y on my team 8 days a week

 

[toob]

They are not Red Wing-fanbase polls, but serious effort has been given to rank players in the History section here at HFBoards and Lidström has been ranked ahead of Yzerman by a considerable margin both times (10 and 20 spots). I would guess that a Red Wing fanbase might think differently, given that Yzerman was the captain of the franchise for two decades.

right im aware of the lists made in this section but i think this is the only list i have seen that actually ranks Lidstrom over Yzerman

Lidstrom does seem to be extremely highly regarded on hfboards

in the polls section recently there was a poll between the two and Yzerman only won with 55% of the vote which i thought was very surprising

i think a lot here favor the argument that Lidstrom ranks higher on a defenseman list than Yzerman does on a forward list but i think that argument is severely flawed

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=34829631


found some info on it here and there were some in Detroit that question Stevie Y's commitment to team play rather than racking up points, a bit unfairly as I recall as well.

Maybe younger fans don't remember it but there definitely was a call to trade Stevie Y out of Detroit, as far as I know that never happened to Lidstrom.

I like how Yzerman turned out but i would take Lidstrom over Stevie Y on my team 8 days a week

i know that a lot in the media during the early and mid 90s thought Yzerman needed to be traded and gave various reasons for it but the sentiment never seemed strong among Red Wings fans themselves (and also the Detroit media)

the ovation/booing at the 96 season home opener is some pretty good evidence of that and there was also a book published after the 96 season before the first cup win by the Detroit News (Steve Yzerman: Heart of a Champion) that essentially is a book responding to the unfair criticism that Yzerman had received and all the trade rumors he had endured up to that point in his career

 

[Pear Juice]

right im aware of the lists made in this section but i think this is the only list i have seen that actually ranks Lidstrom over Yzerman

Lidstrom does seem to be extremely highly regarded on hfboards

in the polls section recently there was a poll between the two and Yzerman only won with 55% of the vote which i thought was very surprising

i think a lot here favor the argument that Lidstrom ranks higher on a defenseman list than Yzerman does on a forward list but i think that argument is severely flawed

Given that Lidström's career is not over yet there are naturally not very many sources for this kind of information. The one quoted the most is the one THN compiled in 1998. Obviously not fair to Lidström to look at that one. Lists posted on random blogs tend to be quite poorly made by singular individuals. I do believe the ones on this forum are among the most well-made assertations of hockey players you can find on the net. Certainly the effort put into it was tremendous.

 

[toob]

Given that Lidström's career is not over yet there are naturally not very many sources for this kind of information. The one quoted the most is the one THN compiled in 1998. Obviously not fair to Lidström to look at that one. Lists posted on random blogs tend to be quite poorly made by singular individuals. I do believe the ones on this forum are among the most well-made assertations of hockey players you can find on the net. Certainly the effort put into it was tremendous.

yes i believe the most recent committee ranking has been The Hockey News Top 60 Since 1967 and there have been other recent ones but they have been positional based and based on numbers worn

there are also those personal lists popping up on sports sites (such as Bleacher Report)

i havent participated in the lists made on this forum but despite some of my issues with the rankings (which themselves stem from some of the methodological assumptions made by many of the participants) i can certainly see and appreciate the effort that went into it (i did browse some of the discussion threads)

i never buy the ranking books for the rankings themselves because well i already have an idea of my rankings of the players ive personally seen and also i feel it is very difficult to compare players from distant eras

the best part about these books is all of the information and stories you get

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Infinite,

You're making a fool out of yourself. Please stop... Ranking Coffey over Lidström is absurd. Yes, he was a great offensive force but not much more than that.

Pronger is a good player but no way near Lidström. Compare Norris votes during their career and I bet it's not even close. The only thing that Pronger is better at than Lidström is cheapshots and visiting the penaltybox.

It's very clear that you prefer offense over defense. During Lidströms career he's pretty much been the best at both. He's always been near the top in scoring for D and this while playing perfect defense and staying out of the penalty box.

It is very clear that Lidström does not get the easy pass like some of the other players on this board, maybe this will change with time when he is retired.

People always use the less competition argument and Hart voting. Please stop bringing up the Hart, it is not relevant. Defensemen don't win the Hart, Pronger winning was a fluke and much due to media hype.

Who knows how much better Lidström would have been if he started playing the same time as Borque. Maybe he would have raised his game even more if facing stiffer competition. The best you can do is outperform the other players competing and Lidström has done that for 15 years.

He's been on the closest thing to a modern day dynasty for 15 years, and has never separated himself from another defenseman any given year, nor has he been a top 3 player any given year. People questioning whether I'm just judging on offense alone... no, obviously you judge by the best combination of both, and all the defenseman I mentioned were a better combination of both in their primes and were at some point a top 3 player in the game. People talk about Coffey's defense, and showed me an example of how he was a minus 5 after his first few years or something, well yeah that also includes 10+ years after his prime in a more defensive league, where his not so great defense actually started to matter more (kind of like Gretzky, -67 after his Edmonton years).

For atleast 5 years in the 80's, Paul Coffey was a better player than anyone not named Gretzky or Lemieux. That to me says he's a better player than Lidstrom. My main criteria for judging players all-time is their best 5 years, and simply how good of a player were they compared to everyone else.

I don't need my players to play all 82 games in a year for it to count, I use the best combination of what I have and can watch, scoring finishes, adjusted stats, adjusted +/-, linemates (give or take 5-10 points if I feel it's necessary) competition (in both senses, their challengers for finishes, and literally who they're playing against on a regular basis) playoffs, etc... I don't include players before the 06 era in my rankings at all...far too different to be compared...anyways, basically as great as Lidstrom is (I've rarely missed a Detroit playoff game since the lockout, and I can tell with my own eyes that Lidstrom is/was the best defenseman in the world, I don't need any stats) he is just overrated plain and simple.

 

[Pear Juice]

yes i believe the most recent committee ranking has been The Hockey News Top 60 Since 1967 and there have been other recent ones but they have been positional based and based on numbers worn

there are also those personal lists popping up on sports sites (such as Bleacher Report)

i havent participated in the lists made on this forum but despite some of my issues with the rankings (which themselves stem from some of the methodological assumptions made by many of the participants) i can certainly see and appreciate the effort that went into it (i did browse some of the discussion threads)

i never buy the ranking books for the rankings themselves because well i already have an idea of my rankings of the players ive personally seen and also i feel it is very difficult to compare players from distant eras

the best part about these books is all of the information and stories you get

Imo the THN 60 since 67 was very high on Yzerman and Messier. From '67 and onwards I guess I would list Esposito, Clarke, Lafleur, Trottier and possibly Jagr ahead of him. And that's just forwards! But again, these are all opinions, and we're all entitled to have one!

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Imo the THN 60 since 67 was very high on Yzerman and Messier. From '67 and onwards I guess I would list Esposito, Clarke, Lafleur, Trottier and possibly Jagr ahead of him. And that's just forwards! But again, these are all opinions, and we're all entitled to have one!

That was the worst top anything list I've ever seen to be honest. I truthfully put far more stock into lists here than any of that stuff.