Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[FiveForDrawingBlood]

So now that Lidstrom has his seventh Norris, he ties Doug Harvey in that category. He also tied Harvey with 10 First Team All Star selections. With respect to guys like Bourque and Coffey, I would say it has to be between Lidstrom and Harvey for second all time behind Bobby Orr. Who would you guys choose? I would personally say Lidstrom because he has so much more competition in this era. Harvey played in the Original Six era where there wasn't as many people playing hockey back then whereas Lidstrom is playing in a 30 team league. Your thoughts?

7 Cups vote for Harvey

 

[Rhiessan71]

No, he'd be the 2nd best player in the game based on vision alone. Lemieux would dominate the game.

Hey, whatever you say kido

The newer is always better thread is that way on the main boards----->
This is the History Section.

 

[The Perfect Human*]

Hey, whatever you say kido

"kido". Right. I might be older than you.

As someone that swears by Gretzky (I'm a freakin' Oilers fan) it's not hard to say Lemieux would rip apart today's NHL. At their primes in the post-lockout NHL:

Lemieux: 70-90-160
Gretzky: 40-110-150
Jagr: 60-80-140

I wonder how much of Gretzky you actually saw? Don't tell me 50+ goals is within his capacity. Atleast 1/3 of his first 500 goals were on breakaways that would not happen in today's NHL.

 

[Killion]

This is typical old fart thinking in it's most cliched form.

I live in Vancouver any chance I can get some of what you are smoking because it sounds absolutely mind blowing..

Of course. Strictly subjective. Fueled by a nice Cabernet Sauvignon. Guilty as charged yer' Honor.

 

[Rhiessan71]

"kido". Right. I might be older than you.

Well, my birth year is right in my profile and username my friend, have at 'er.

I believe BOTH Lemieux and Gretzky would still dominate today. Lemieux one on one and Gretzky breaking down systems. So asking me to choose between them is not going to happen.

Either way, let's just keep this thread in context, people can start a new thread putting Lidstrom up for #1 there.
Considering though, that Lidstrom backers are having a hard enough time, just getting him into the #2 or even #3 spot here. Maaaaaaybe such a #1 thread might be a tad premature eh.

What I do know though, is that I for one, am not going to let anyone bypass the points in this thread by suddenly jumping Lidstrom up for the #1 spot.
There has been no declaration of victory or conceding of it in this thread.
Putting Lids up for #1 at this time is nothing more than a false declaration of victory, plain and simple.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

IMO the post several pages back (post 434) a poster brought up Scotty Bowman and his thoughts. A HHOF coach that coached both Lidstrom and Harvey sides with Lidstrom. That's enough for me. Bowman's quote: "As to who's the best ever . . . it's tough to rate this guy here and that guy there. I will say I don't rate anyone AHEAD of Lidstrom, though.''

 

[85highlander]

If you're an NHL GM and you were given the choice of 7-8 years of Orr (during which 6 of them were absolute dominance) or 20 years of Nicklas Lidstrom playing consistent injury-free hockey (he's played something like 97% of all games in his career), which would you take?

This was essentially what happened in Boston -- substituting Bourque for Lindstrom -- and there isn't anyone in Boston who would trade the 20 Bourque years for the 10 that Orr played.

Would one rather take 20 trips to the second best restaurant, museum, game in town, etc. or just half of those in order to experience something spectacular and more excellent.

Yes, Lindstrom (and Bourque, and many others) played longer than Orr, and by playing extra years they still couldn't do the things he was able to do.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

7 Cups vote for Harvey

So by this thought process Lidstrom gets 3 more SC vote than Bourque.

 

[pappyline]

IMO the post several pages back (post 434) a poster brought up Scotty Bowman and his thoughts. A HHOF coach that coached both Lidstrom and Harvey sides with Lidstrom. That's enough for me. Bowman's quote: "As to who's the best ever . . . it's tough to rate this guy here and that guy there. I will say I don't rate anyone AHEAD of Lidstrom, though.''

I wouldn't make too much of this. The only time Bowman coached Harvey was in 68-69 when Doug was 44 & on his last legs.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

I wouldn't make too much of this. The only time Bowman coached Harvey was in 68-69 when Doug was 44 & on his last legs.

Maybe so! But I value Bowman's opinion much more than anyone on this thread.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have watched Lidstrom since the 1991 Canada Cup and have an excelent idea of what he does and cannot do. You are simply avoiding the question. Describe his non-physical defensive techniques by looking at the poke check, hook check and sweep check techniques.

Listen, I put a lot of stock into what you say about hockey from the 50s-80s. But a few days ago, you said that Lidstrom played the same style as Brian Leetch. So I don't think you can really be considered an expert on this particular player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lidstrom's supremacy should be backed up by the fact that he was able to excel in 3 different era's of hockey:

1) The high-scoring early-to-late 90's
2) The clutch-and-grab late-90's till the lockout
3) The post-lockout era where everything's a penalty.

He was able to amend his game and play at an elite level for 20 years. How is this guy not #2, and to be honest, how is he not in discussion for #1? (the feat of dominating 3 era's like that is ridiculous. Only Lemieux could make that transition)

Now you're going too far. Lidstrom was most definitely not an elite player in high-scoring early-mid 90s. He was a very good one, but his defensive game hadn't matured completely.

On the other hand, he does deserve credit for transitioning for being an elite player on both sides of the 2005 rule changes, which included the video of things Lidstrom in particular used to do that wouldn't be allowed anymore.

Not sure what you mean by Mario Lemieux dominating 3 eras - he had 22 points in 26 games after the lockout and was slow as dirt - not his fault, he was old, but he certainly didn't dominate.

Lidstrom is not in discussion for #1 because he did not dominate games like Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Which Post?

Listen, I put a lot of stock into what you say about hockey from the 50s-80s. But a few days ago, you said that Lidstrom played the same style as Brian Leetch. So I don't think you can really be considered an expert on this particular player.

Which post are you referring to specifically?

If its post #426 in this thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=930847&page=18

then kindly reread.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

"kido". Right. I might be older than you.

As someone that swears by Gretzky (I'm a freakin' Oilers fan) it's not hard to say Lemieux would rip apart today's NHL. At their primes in the post-lockout NHL:

Lemieux: 70-90-160
Gretzky: 40-110-150
Jagr: 60-80-140

I wonder how much of Gretzky you actually saw? Don't tell me 50+ goals is within his capacity. Atleast 1/3 of his first 500 goals were on breakaways that would not happen in today's NHL.

Heh. Gretzky was famously terrible on breakaways.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Orr is number 1 without doubt but face the facts, Lidstrom's consistency day in and day out is better then anyone else's in history. No one can or has played the amount of minutes every single game like Lidstrom and done it so well.

I understand he is does not have that physical presence of previous names but his awareness is second to none. Lidstrom makes an art of containing players as oppose to destroying them. The puck may go by him but the player will not and he perfected the "brains before brawns" tactic.

Lidstrom has played in almost 1500 games missing less than 25 games since 1991 while tallying 1108 points. He has been nominated for 10 Norris trophies winning seven of them and a Conn Smythe to go with his four Stanley Cups.

Since Lidstrom still plays in the league and has a good 1-2 years left in him, these statistics can only improve even more.

The guy is a machine.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Orr is number 1 without doubt but face the facts, Lidstrom's consistency day in and day out is better then anyone else's in history. No one can or has played the amount of minutes every single game like Lidstrom and done it so well.

I understand he is does not have that physical presence of previous names but his awareness is second to none. Lidstrom makes an art of containing players as oppose to destroying them. The puck may go by him but the player will not and he perfected the "brains before brawns" tactic.

Lidstrom has played in almost 1500 games missing less than 25 games since 1991 while tallying 1108 points. He has been nominated for 10 Norris trophies winning seven of them and a Conn Smythe to go with his four Stanley Cups.

Since Lidstrom still plays in the league and has a good 1-2 years left in him, these statistics can only improve even more.

The guy is a machine.

Ummm *cough* Ray Bourque has played over 1600 games, tallying almost 1600 points. (What constitutes a Norris nomination? Finishing in the top 3? If so, then Bourque has 15 nominations winning it 5 times.) And 2 Hart nominations to boot.

Oh and I guarantee you that Bourque averaged more minutes per game in his 1600 than Lidstrom has in his 1500.
Making your "No one can or has played the amount of minutes every single game like Lidstrom and done it so well." statement completely false.

 

[Killion]

I wouldn't make too much of this. The only time Bowman coached Harvey was in 68-69 when Doug was 44 & on his last legs.

Indeed. Harvey retired from playing in the NHL for several seasons but he hadnt' retired from playing, spending several seasons in the AHL & one in the CPHL with the Kansas City Blues before returning for a couple of games with Detroit; Playoff's followed by a full season with St.Louis. Anyone know the story behind that?.

 

[Hardyvan123]

If you're an NHL GM and you were given the choice of 7-8 years of Orr (during which 6 of them were absolute dominance) or 20 years of Nicklas Lidstrom playing consistent injury-free hockey (he's played something like 97% of all games in his career), which would you take?

that's a toss up for me at this point, are we using the cap rules of today?

that's why it's debatable in my mind who number 1 is.

As much talk there has been about Lidstroms favorable situation Orr had one as well in Boston , just like Gretzky in Edmonton where the team played to their stars strengths and the NHL during both Bobby's and Wayne's most dominant years was in a major transitional phase as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Doug HarveyPost NY Rangers

Indeed. Harvey retired from playing in the NHL for several seasons but he hadnt' retired from playing, spending several seasons in the AHL & one in the CPHL with the Kansas City Blues before returning for a couple of games with Detroit; Playoff's followed by a full season with St.Louis. Anyone know the story behind that?.

Short version:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/harvedo01.html

After winning the Norris while a player coach in 1961-62 there was friction in New York that resulted in Doug Harvey coming back as a player only with Muzz Patrick coaching to be replaced by Red Sullivan just after the mid season mark. Harvey and Sulllivan had a history and early in the 1963-64 season as the Rangers continued to plummet after their 1961-62 season, Doug Harvey was sent to St.Paul in the CPHL, coached by Fred Shero. Harvey stayed long enough to introduce the basics of his transition game to Shero but then was shuffled to Quebec in the AHL so that he could be closer to home(Montreal). Played for the Aces in Quebec thru the 1964-65 season then was sent to Baltimore in the AHL by the Rangers still had his rights. Mid season 1966-67 moved to Pittsburgh,AHL farm club of the Red Wings, called up for a couple of NHL games with Detroit but returned when it became obvious that the Red Wings were not making the playoffs.

1967-68 with KC in the CPHL as the head coach. 10 games into the season became the player coach. KC was eliminated in the first round of the playoffs:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0003531968.html

Harvey was called-up for the rest of the 68 playofs to the Blues by Scotty Bowman. Played the 1968-69 season with the Blues.Then his career ended.

 

[Killion]

Harvey was called-up for the rest of the 68 playofs to the Blues by Scotty Bowman. Played the 1968-69 season with the Blues.Then his career ended.

They just buried the guy in the minors in the twilight of his career when in fact he couldve' been one Hell of a contributor. I understand there was enmity towards him in Montreal (team & league offices) over the player union issue circa 57 which precipitated his departure in the first place. The league had a score to settle with Doug Harvey. His life after hockey is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Eisen]

But to be honest Lidstrom is a better all-time hockey player than Yzerman. Detroit fans just really love Yzerman (as most do) for his great offensive numbers and play. Howe is highly regarded for his longevity (I don't know how, he was basically a point/game player for his career).

Has anyone noticed that the Red Wings have made the playoffs EVERY year since Lidstrom has been a DRW? He's the one constant on that team, the ultimate stabilizer.

It's not only his longevity, it`s also because he won scoring races by an unheard of margin.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Dude...Orr is unanimously recognized as one of the best 3-4 players in the history of the game.

You couldn't even have Lidstrom unanimously recognized as the second best Red Wing to ever play the game, let alone the first.

Saying that your opinion is in the minority is like saying that a female, black, Jewish, cowboy is a minority heh.

That's a great character for a movie. The protagonist can be a black, Jewish female cowboy.

The Red Wings have had some great players from Mr. Hockey to Stevie Y, Federov and Lidstrom.

Honestly Dmen, Goalies and Forwards should be rated separately IMO, but I have no problem ranking them Lidstrom,Howe then Stevie Y Federov with both sets being flipflopped by various aspects.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Ummm *cough* Ray Bourque has played over 1600 games, tallying almost 1600 points. (What constitutes a Norris nomination? Finishing in the top 3? If so, then Bourque has 15 nominations winning it 5 times.) And 2 Hart nominations to boot.

Oh and I guarantee you that Bourque averaged more minutes per game in his 1600 than Lidstrom has in his 1500.
Making your "No one can or has played the amount of minutes every single game like Lidstrom and done it so well." statement completely false.

You must have missed this: Lidstrom's consistency day in and day out is better then anyone else's in history. Day to day means today as well as 15 years ago. Even you can't say Bourque was as effective in his late year as Lidstrom is today. Good vote or bad vote a 40+ year old player just won the Norris over a 25 year old Weber and a 34 year old Chara.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

They just buried the guy in the minors in the twilight of his career when in fact he couldve' been one Hell of a contributor. I understand there was enmity towards him in Montreal (team & league offices) over the player union issue circa 57 which precipitated his departure in the first place. The league had a score to settle with Doug Harvey. His life after hockey is the stuff of nightmares.

Listen Scotty Bowman who's Canadian said he could not rate someone above Lidstrom has a better/more skilled opinion than you and Don Cherry. This is the guy who's probably the best "Canadian/Canadien" coach of all time.

 

[BlacknGold77*]

I think by now even the naysayers have to start giving Lidstrom credit.

As to who is #2 all time.. a case could be made for any of Lidstrom, Bourque, Harvey, Shore and probably a few others.

Lidstrom's career resume is almost certainly the most well rounded out of them all. He's done it all, and he has been the main constant during the Red Wings success over the last 15+ years.

o rly?

Bourque - 1,579 pts in 1,612 games and +542 for his career with 5 Norris

Lidstrom - 1,108 pts in 1,494 games and +429 for his career with 7 Norris