Level of players in these Olympics

[Jablkon]

Most NHL teams if you take out 4-5 top players the rest are mostly average guys. That's what 31 teams with a salary cap and a good number of skilled players staying in Europe gives you.

I just wonder who are that skilled players staying in Europe. Not sure what taxes are but 900 000 bucks is not something you find on ground in Europe and KHL.

 

[tsamolotoff]

Top stars in the KHL receive (officially, it'd be much more through various shady arrangements) circa 2.5-3M dollars (some more, like Kovy and Dats, they were close to 4.5M last year, i think, and it was twice that amount before the currency crash of 2014), Mozyakin (perennial top scorer) was demanding, according to the rumours, around 5M (not sure he got it, but the Magnitogorsk signed him before the start of the next pre-season, so probably it was a generous counter-offer). Two oligarch teams (CSKA and SKA) which had been poaching players left and right for the last three years ('everything for the Olympics, ahem') have 3.5 B and 2.5 B roubles payrolls (which translates to $58M and $41M, three or four times over the official cap), 'ordinary' top teams like Ak Bars, Magnitka, Salavat, Avangard have 1.5-1B payrolls ($15-25M). I'd say most of our foreign and domestic top players in these teams are either failed prospects (like our Jiri Sekac, Alex Burmistrov or Anton Lander) who could not make into top-6 in the NHL, or people who are simply not suited to play on the small rinks (like Azevedo or Omark, for example).

In regards to whether trash level NHL teams can easily beat our top teams, I'd not be so sure (it heavily depends on the rink type and rules), but on a level playing field, I'd say SKA, AB, Magnitka, Salavat, Lokomotiv and Jokerit would probably beat the Sabres (today's game was very slow and atrocious in general, btw), Canucks and who else is at the bottom right now.

PS I don't really get the sneering attitude of the NHL fans towards the 'eurotrash' leagues - you constantly steal our best young players and mostly make them trash / irreparably broken . If you take just our team, we lost Burmistrov (he was at 40+ points pace here at 22), both Svechnikov brothers, Radel Fazleev and Artur Tyanulin, and if you take whole region, Nail Yakupov too. Only Sergachev seems to have adapted to this playstyle, and it's just his first season (I remember Tyler Myers and shudder). While I agree this Olympics is at the EHT level (EuroHockeyTour) or even below, many players are not that bad, actually. Some simply chose to play euro rink hockey as it suits them better, others don't want to get trapped by ELC and pigeonholed into a bottom-6 role if they are not exceedingly good.

 

[Faterson]

We need a world-wide hockey league with an American (NHL) and European (KHL) conference, and that's gonna settle it.

 

[Blue and Green]

Top teams in the KHL would smoke your Arizona or Buffalo any day of the week.

St. Petersburg is the top team in the KHL by a wide margin this season. Several of their better players played in North America and either couldn't stay on a NHL roster or never even made it past the AHL. Many others were never even drafted. There is no way that any KHL team would "smoke" any team from the NHL. The gap between the leagues is huge.

 

[Jussi]

St. Petersburg is the top team in the KHL by a wide margin this season. Several of their better players played in North America and either couldn't stay on a NHL roster or never even made it past the AHL. Many others were never even drafted. There is no way that any KHL team would "smoke" any team from the NHL. The gap between the leagues is huge.

To be honest some tanking NHL teams can be really bad.

 

[Blue and Green]

To be honest some tanking NHL teams can be really bad.

Bad compared to other NHL teams.

 

[Jussi]

Bad compared to other NHL teams.

No I mean so bad that it wouldn't surprise me if they lost to a team from another league.

 

[Pouchkine]

Let's be serious some top Euro teams would for sure be very competitive playing some bad nhl teams. Most NHL teams to be honest are very average apart from a couple of players. The talent at the moment in the hockey world isn't very strong and there's to many teams.

 

[Jablkon]

Let's be serious some top Euro teams would for sure be very competitive playing some bad nhl teams. Most NHL teams to be honest are very average apart from a couple of players. The talent at the moment in the hockey world isn't very strong and there's to many teams.

But this is just too easy to say. One of the most average team in NHL should be probably Calgary. If they go full throtle, their bottom six would dominate imo. Blackhawks are not making playoffs this year. They have a lot of issues with roster but still, they can put it together and you wouldnt have a chance. Yes, you might beat Hawks with their current shape (hypothetically). But they are not average. I spoke about that 900 ooo bucks, because thats what you basically get at best in KHL. So why wouldnt any euro try NHL 4th line for that sallary? I mean, apart from that above mentioned KHL teams, those NHLers are the best avaliable hockey players in the world. There is not so much talent remaining. And I am not speaking about system, details and development which is better in NHL/AHL.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I'm really enjoying this tournament. Some really good hockey that will only get better now that we're in the quarterfinals.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

It's the equivalent of a golf event without any PGA players, European Tour players, and web.com players.
It's minor league competition at best. But it can still be enjoyed and has whatever meaning an individual assigns to it.

 

[Tom Polakis]

I'm really enjoying this tournament. Some really good hockey that will only get better now that we're in the quarterfinals.

Agreed. I've watched only one game, US vs. Slovakia, and I wasn't disappointed with the level of play. Players were hustling, guys were putting passes on the tape, defensemen weren't blowing assignments. Sure, it's not the world's best players, but it isn't that far of a drop below a typical NHL regular-season game.

And I can't believe I'm writing this when stiffs like Mark Arcobello are seeing significant ice time.

 

[Blue and Green]

Let's be serious some top Euro teams would for sure be very competitive playing some bad nhl teams. Most NHL teams to be honest are very average apart from a couple of players. The talent at the moment in the hockey world isn't very strong and there's to many teams.

I'm not knocking the Euro leagues, or AHL or the players in the Olympics this year. They are good hockey players. But don't kid yourself about the difference between the NHL and any other league; it's huge. Over a large series of games the worst NHL team would beat the best non-NHL team.

St. Petersburg is running away with the KHL which is the second best league in the world. Their 3rd leading scorer (Shirokov) had 1 point in 8 NHL games. Their 4th leading scorer (Plotkinov) played 45 games in the NHL and managed only 3 points.
Their top scoring defenceman is a Swede who spent two years in North America bouncing between the AHL and lower-tier ECHL.

 

[Hogan86]

I respect the players representing their country, but it's pretty brutal hockey. As a Canadian, watching our defense is just painful. And the fact that Max Lapierre is representing our country, just makes me want to hurt myself. Bring back the NHLers.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

St. Petersburg is the top team in the KHL by a wide margin this season. Several of their better players played in North America and either couldn't stay on a NHL roster or never even made it past the AHL. Many others were never even drafted. There is no way that any KHL team would "smoke" any team from the NHL. The gap between the leagues is huge.

Yes of course. I can imagine Arizona with their $1,500,000 cap hit on goalies stopping Datsyuk and Gusev feeding Kovalchuk on the powerplay...
You should understand that hockey is a team sport. A player who is not successfull in a certain environment can be very successful in another environment. It happens every time when players swap league. A lot of very successful former NHL players made fool of themselves not only in the KHL, but even in the Swiss league. Were they bad players? No, of course, just they weren't in the right place. And viceversa. Plotnikov is a good player, he just fallen not in his team, for example. For Russians it's harder to go to America on average. It's a huge leap. Some adapt more than others, like Kucherov. Some other won't adapt that well, but are just too good of players to have it feeling that bad.
Do you remember how it ended up in 2010 when SKA defeated Carolina? Now SKA is 10 times better than that team. And while t ey are the top team in the KHL, we'll see if they will win as top teams from the East are good too. SKA always had the biggest budget in the KHL (and mostly the best regular season record) yet they won only twice

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

I'm not knocking the Euro leagues, or AHL or the players in the Olympics this year. They are good hockey players. But don't kid yourself about the difference between the NHL and any other league; it's huge. Over a large series of games the worst NHL team would beat the best non-NHL team.

St. Petersburg is running away with the KHL which is the second best league in the world. Their 3rd leading scorer (Shirokov) had 1 point in 8 NHL games. Their 4th leading scorer (Plotkinov) played 45 games in the NHL and managed only 3 points.
Their top scoring defenceman is a Swede who spent two years in North America bouncing between the AHL and lower-tier ECHL.

Hersley is out-scoring Voynov who won two stanley cups. According to your logic the ECHL>NHL.

 

[Saekk]

Yes of course. I can imagine Arizona with their $1,500,000 cap hit on goalies stopping Datsyuk and Gusev feeding Kovalchuk on the powerplay...

I agree that best KHL teams would win against the worst NHL teams, but speaking about Arizonas goaltending, Raanta has been the only bright spot in their season this year.

 

[SaltNPeca]

Typically undersized, old, or one-dimensional North American players go into European leagues to continue their careers. The top level speed, talent, and physicality of the NHL is too much for their age/size/skillset. The NHL schedule and associated travel is a grind game-over-game, week-over-week, playoffs, rinse & repeat.

Typically only the best European players go to the NHL to make their fame/fortune. Many even head over early to improve their chances via. CHL. Many return home for a victory lap.

KHL mostly excluded. This is easily the #2 league in the world.
SHL, AHL, and Liiga could be somehow comparable, but as mentioned it's just a different game (Scandinavian skill vs. AHL toughness and grinding).

Perfect example: The top SHL scorer is 5'7" Ryan Lasch from USA.

I watched about every 2017 IIHF WC game in Cologne. OP what is your point there? The NHL stars were game-breakers: Panarin, Kucherov, Mackinnon, Nylander, Marner, Gaudreau, Aho, Larkin, Draisaitl, Lundqvist, Grubauer, ...

 

[Kshahdoo]

St. Petersburg is the top team in the KHL by a wide margin this season. Several of their better players played in North America and either couldn't stay on a NHL roster or never even made it past the AHL. Many others were never even drafted. There is no way that any KHL team would "smoke" any team from the NHL. The gap between the leagues is huge.

SKA leaders are Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Gusev, Shipachev and Voynov. Out of them, Gusev hasn't played in the NHL, Shipachev failed (yeah), Kovy, Dats and Voynov could probably still be top/close to top NHL players. Then if we take the big ice, I'm pretty positive, SKA will be able to beat half the NHL.

Don't forget about Dadonov, who was the 3rd best player on his line in SKA, and is now doing pretty ok in the NHL.

 

[Jablkon]

Yes of course. I can imagine Arizona with their $1,500,000 cap hit on goalies stopping Datsyuk and Gusev feeding Kovalchuk on the powerplay...
You should understand that hockey is a team sport. A player who is not successfull in a certain environment can be very successful in another environment. It happens every time when players swap league. A lot of very successful former NHL players made fool of themselves not only in the KHL, but even in the Swiss league. Were they bad players? No, of course, just they weren't in the right place. And viceversa. Plotnikov is a good player, he just fallen not in his team, for example. For Russians it's harder to go to America on average. It's a huge leap. Some adapt more than others, like Kucherov. Some other won't adapt that well, but are just too good of players to have it feeling that bad.
Do you remember how it ended up in 2010 when SKA defeated Carolina? Now SKA is 10 times better than that team. And while t ey are the top team in the KHL, we'll see if they will win as top teams from the East are good too. SKA always had the biggest budget in the KHL (and mostly the best regular season record) yet they won only twice

Thats true except those who didnt succeed in NHL or never made it were basically never difference players against NA teams on BOB, or more precisely they disappear. These cases happened 18 years ago but not now. KHl is mostly about three teams, isnt it?

 

[hallonskal]

I'm not knocking the Euro leagues, or AHL or the players in the Olympics this year. They are good hockey players. But don't kid yourself about the difference between the NHL and any other league; it's huge. Over a large series of games the worst NHL team would beat the best non-NHL team.

St. Petersburg is running away with the KHL which is the second best league in the world. Their 3rd leading scorer (Shirokov) had 1 point in 8 NHL games. Their 4th leading scorer (Plotkinov) played 45 games in the NHL and managed only 3 points.
Their top scoring defenceman is a Swede who spent two years in North America bouncing between the AHL and lower-tier ECHL.

This is not a very good approach to have when you compare leagues. I can do the same, but the other way around:

Bryan McCabe was one of the worst players I've ever seen play hockey in SHL/Elitserien, he was absolutely terrible and a -12 in 10 games before he had to leave his team in Sweden. The year before that he was selected to the second All-Star team in the NHL and the year after he had the highest TOI of all player in the NHL. I guess that makes SHL >>>>>> NHL?

Matt Duchene only scored 4 goals in 19 games in SHL, and he is considered quite a good NHL-player. Must mean that SHL > NHL

Jesper Bratt was an average player in Allsvenskan (SHL-2 basically) and is doing way better in NHL, I guess that means Allsvenskan > NHL? And we all know SHL >> Allsvenskan

Manny Fernandez was one of the worst goaltender in SHL when he was here, the next two years he was a starter for an NHL team...SHL >> NHL?

Thomas Greiss was one of the most laughed at player in SHL and considered a terrible goaltender, and has been in the NHL 6 years since then. SHL >>>> NHL?

I'm not saying that SHL is close to NHL, I do believe that the main difference is the star/top6 players, but the whole "X was not good in Y-league, which means that Y-league is better than Z-league" is not a very smart way of making a point, becuase some player are better suited for European hockey and others a more suited for NA-hockey. Players also develop, which means that they can have some bad season in one league and then do way better in a worse leage a few years after.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

This is not a very good approach to have when you compare leagues. I can do the same, but the other way around:

Bryan McCabe was one of the worst players I've ever seen play hockey in SHL/Elitserien, he was absolutely terrible and a -12 in 10 games before he had to leave his team in Sweden. The year before that he was selected to the second All-Star team in the NHL and the year after he had the highest TOI of all player in the NHL. I guess that makes SHL >>>>>> NHL?

Matt Duchene only scored 4 goals in 19 games in SHL, and he is considered quite a good NHL-player. Must mean that SHL > NHL

Jesper Bratt was an average player in Allsvenskan (SHL-2 basically) and is doing way better in NHL, I guess that means Allsvenskan > NHL? And we all know SHL >> Allsvenskan

Manny Fernandez was one of the worst goaltender in SHL when he was here, the next two years he was a starter for an NHL team...SHL >> NHL?

Thomas Greiss was one of the most laughed at player in SHL and considered a terrible goaltender, and has been in the NHL 6 years since then. SHL >>>> NHL?

I'm not saying that SHL is close to NHL, I do believe that the main difference is the star/top6 players, but the whole "X was not good in Y-league, which means that Y-league is better than Z-league" is not a very smart way of making a point, becuase some player are better suited for European hockey and others a more suited for NA-hockey. Players also develop, which means that they can have some bad season in one league and then do way better in a worse leage a few years after.

Evgeny Nabokov, Ilya Bryzgalov, Evander Kane, Pekka Rinne, Ryan McDonagh were beyond terrible in the KHL.

 

[bert]

It's the equivalent of a golf event without any PGA players, European Tour players, and web.com players.
It's minor league competition at best. But it can still be enjoyed and has whatever meaning an individual assigns to it.

Its actually much better than that. Canada's payrole is 24 million dollars. That's not minor league, they would hammer every single team in the AHL.

 

[Pouchkine]

That's obvious for sure. And what about Russia's payrole?

 

[The Lewler]

Time for the superleague. NHL vs KHL.