Level of players in these Olympics

[Pouchkine]

Sochi was a terrible tournament all around. So far the games have been much more enjoyable even with less skill. And it's much easier to go through the trap on the big ice since it's much wider. It's always been like this. Small ice hockey is such a thing of the past its incredible how crap it is. Players are to big and to fast these days, the problem is most of them don't know how to make passes and play as a team with combination play so all you see in nhl and small ice is dump chase trap change the lines hit dump cycle the puck commercial break...

Anyway if hockey 'thinkers" were bright they would have outlawed the trap 20 years ago. Each time you see all the guys going backwords in the neutral zone you call a penalty just like in basketball they have a rule with the zone defence.

In 1998 a tournament without NHLers would have been much weaker now we see that there's A LOT of very good players playing elsewhere mainly in KHL.

 

[Jablkon]

I guess the reason for the Americans and Canadians are more affected by this is because euros probably do not aspire to become a 4th or 3rd liner in nhl when they can have a better role and similar pay back in Europe together with the fact that it's probably less hassle for nhl to employ Americans.. Hockey is a sport that has a pretty low skill cap as well so the difference between players in nhl and other leagues aren't as big as some may like to think.. Hockey is the rich mans sport only available in a few countries for a few families who can afford it so Sidney Crosby is a c level athlete. Its a reason sweden have only 1 soccer star but many nhl players. The point of me pointing this out is that there could be many more euros in nhl that could take lesaer roles and these are now available for us

This has bit changed imo. Lot of euro guys playing in NHL fourth lines. Not sure its because of correctness but they probably stop prefering NA players. That will to play in NHL varies from country imo. Czechs are supermotivated to play any role. Swiss players probably not much. I am not sure about about finns and swedes.

 

[Pouchkine]

Funny enough but some of the greatest moments in Olympic Hockey History were when there was no NHL players in it just like in 1994 and 1980...

 

[swoopster]

Funny enough but some of the greatest moments in Olympic Hockey History were when there was no NHL players in it just like in 1994 and 1980...

You left out 1960 and also 1972!

 

[Frank the Tank]

Sochi was a terrible tournament all around. So far the games have been much more enjoyable even with less skill. And it's much easier to go through the trap on the big ice since it's much wider. It's always been like this. Small ice hockey is such a thing of the past its incredible how crap it is. Players are to big and to fast these days, the problem is most of them don't know how to make passes and play as a team with combination play so all you see in nhl and small ice is dump chase trap change the lines hit dump cycle the puck commercial break...

Anyway if hockey 'thinkers" were bright they would have outlawed the trap 20 years ago. Each time you see all the guys going backwords in the neutral zone you call a penalty just like in basketball they have a rule with the zone defence.

The "trap" may be easier to beat in European ice, and yet collapsing five men in the box is much more effective. Too much space outside the dots where there exists minimal threat to score while the defenders are content to hold the middle and block shots.

 

[Pouchkine]

You left out 1960 and also 1972!

And the 1976 final then...

 

[Pouchkine]

The "trap" may be easier to beat in European ice, and yet collapsing five men in the box is much more effective. Too much space outside the dots where there exists minimal threat to score while the defenders are content to hold the middle and block shots.

That I agree. Defensive systems have killed most of my interest in hockey. Both small and big ice can't prevent boring hockey. At least on the big ice you can see guys skating and a bit more passes in the open space while I just can't get excited about the famous cycling game of the nhl with guys the face in the glass all the time.

 

[offkilter]

The "trap" may be easier to beat in European ice, and yet collapsing five men in the box is much more effective. Too much space outside the dots where there exists minimal threat to score while the defenders are content to hold the middle and block shots.

Yeah this is what has bothered me all tournament. Teams in the defensive end don't even try to pressure the puck carriers, they sit back and block shots before attempting a slow break out and the opposing team then uses the same tactic. It's not fun to watch.

 

[Pouchkine]

It's 21st Century hockey for you. Back when there was no trap we had to endure all the hooking clutching grabbing etc. No wonder hockey can't compete with soccer. It could be such an incredible game to watch but throughout it's history it's always been plagued by crap like this one way or another.

 

[Pouchkine]

I think we might see some good games in the knockout round though, well let's hope!

 

[swoopster]

The 1960 team won the gold at Squaw Valley and the 1972 team caught everybody by surprise to win the silver at Sapporo Japan.

The 1976 team finished 5th.

 

[Pouchkine]

I was talking in general as a neutral... The 1994 final Sweden-Canada Forsberg was a memorable moment and the 1980 tournament USSR-USA is probably the biggest upset in sport history on a major stage. The level of play was phenomenal as well. Remember the year before USSR beat the best of Canada 6-0 and the year after USSR beat the best of Canada 8-1.

 

[Elvs]

18 year old tolvanen and heiskanen dominating veterans.

Dahlin hasnt had a chance to prove himself

And McDavid and Matthews are dominating veterans in the NHL. I guess all hockey leagues are beer leagues.

 

[torero]

if shl, khl, liiga, nla is bad, then all soccer leagues outside of pl, la liga and bundesliga sucks too....thats the logic some people use ...

only because nhl is better it does not mean the quality of top euro leagues is bad..

heck, in the 70s and 80s, cska moskva was better than any nhl-club...

No but still the ELC (entry level contract or the minimum NHL salary) is at 700'000 +or- ... with 50 taxes. usd 350'000 after taxes

You do not get this salary in many countries after tax !!Switzerland for the Stars ... the real stars i mean. KHL maybe (for the stars again ... ) Maybe some top players in Sweden as well. But nowhere else.
So for a sport where you retire being around 35 ... you go for the dollars. logical.

So today, most best players tried to make it to the NHL ...whether they succeeded or not ... is another affair. But the best players who succeeded play in NHL ! for sure. And they stay as long as they can.

++

Are NHL teams better than Euro teams ? i am actually not convinced. The sum of the parts would say a straight YES.

But results, when NHL teams came to Europe, were talking into this direction ... because Euros were playing against their stars ... but once the AURA dis-inflated, the second and third year ... NHL teams started loosing ... i remember seeing the Rangers being beaten up 8-3 by Zoug ... and it could have easily been more. They looked like pillons in front of a fast Swiss team on big ice. This equation is unforgivable when normal mechanics are at play. More than offsetting the simple sum of the part equation.

Honestly , big ice, small ice plays a role.

Actually just to say

NHL > KHL > SEL > Fin Liga, Swiss LNA, Czech league > AHL > and the others.

Czech league were not supposed to be there ... but they are good and were impressive in these Champion league hockey games (CHL)

 

[Jablkon]

No but still the ELC (entry level contract or the minimum NHL salary) is at 700'000 +or- ... with 50 taxes. usd 350'000 after taxes

You do not get this salary in many countries after tax !!Switzerland for the Stars ... the real stars i mean. KHL maybe (for the stars again ... ) Maybe some top players in Sweden as well. But nowhere else.
So for a sport where you retire being around 35 ... you go for the dollars. logical.

So today, most best players tried to make it to the NHL ...whether they succeeded or not ... is another affair. But the best players who succeeded play in NHL ! for sure. And they stay as long as they can.

++

Are NHL teams better than Euro teams ? i am actually not convinced. The sum of the parts would say a straight YES.

But results, when NHL teams came to Europe, were talking into this direction ... because Euros were playing against their stars ... but once the AURA dis-inflated, the second and third year ... NHL teams started loosing ... i remember seeing the Rangers being beaten up 8-3 by Zoug ... and it could have easily been more. They looked like pillons in front of a fast Swiss team on big ice. This equation is unforgivable when normal mechanics are at play. More than offsetting the simple sum of the part equation.

Honestly , big ice, small ice plays a role.

Actually just to say

NHL > KHL > SEL > Fin Liga, Swiss LNA, Czech league > AHL > and the others.

Czech league were not supposed to be there ... but they are good and were impressive in these Champion league hockey games (CHL)

Common, NHL teams are miles better. None of the euro team has roster comparable to even Arizona. Also I dont think AHL is low in ranking. Its a high quality league. Just specific.

 

[Elvs]

Yes, I've been defending the Euro leagues but let's not get carried away. NHL teams have the most resources and can offer the best salaries by far, thus they can scout and entice the best players in the world. It's not rocket science.

 

[GermanNuck]

No doubt NHL is the best league. What they do miss are the late bloomers though. Most of the kids that fall through the draft system go to Europe where they can turn into NHL caliber players. I have the feeling that the NHL misses out on a lot of them, so maybe scouting isn't the best, which is partly caused by the different systems in Europe and NA.

 

[RandV]

Yeah the caliber of players in Europe is comparable to much of what's in the NHL, sure. But the problem is without the NHL involved it's not just missing a swap of comparable players, you're losing the absolute best of the best. May not effect the lower teams much but the top teams will be made up of guys starting with and then just below Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane, Backstrom, etc, and are certainly on another level than what's playing in the Olympics now.

Not that I'm not enjoying it, makes for an interesting diversion seeing a team Canada that's good but doesn't have an overwhelming advantage compete for the gold.

 

[Frannel]

No doubt NHL is the best league. What they do miss are the late bloomers though. Most of the kids that fall through the draft system go to Europe where they can turn into NHL caliber players. I have the feeling that the NHL misses out on a lot of them, so maybe scouting isn't the best, which is partly caused by the different systems in Europe and NA.

I read an interesting analysis on this topic just a couple of days ago. It basically says that scouting finds the top 60 players, but after that it's almost like gambling ;-)
NHL Draft Analytics: A Study of NHL Central Scouting - Neutral Zone - Men's Hockey

Also pointing out how there are biases affecting the scouting:
"There is certainly a size bias in the draft which is slightly reflected in the number of players at different heights listed on central scouting but more importantly in the actual draft results. The smaller players have the highest percentage of undrafted players off central scouting. Also, the majority of players taken at 5’10” and below are taken in the sixth and seventh round (57.9%). Of the only 11 players who were 6’5” or taller listed on Central Scouting, only 1 of them was undrafted opposed to 5’9” skaters where 7 of the 9 players listed were undrafted. [...]
Combining both size and position shows that there is a slight correlation between size and position. Not only is the average height taller for defenders than forwards and that centers tend to be slightly taller then wings. The averages only tell one story, but the fact that there are only 5 defenders drafted or listed at 5’10” or shorter is significant considering there are 11 centers, 18 right wings and 11 left wings. On the opposite end there are 25 defenders listed or drafted at 6’3” or taller oppose to centers at 9, right wings at 5 and left wings at 5. [...] The data showed that there are some built in bias by both NHL teams scouting departments as well as NHL Central Scouting;"

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Common, NHL teams are miles better. None of the euro team has roster comparable to even Arizona. Also I dont think AHL is low in ranking. Its a high quality league. Just specific.

Top teams in the KHL would smoke your Arizona or Buffalo any day of the week.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

No but still the ELC (entry level contract or the minimum NHL salary) is at 700'000 +or- ... with 50 taxes. usd 350'000 after taxes

You do not get this salary in many countries after tax !!Switzerland for the Stars ... the real stars i mean. KHL maybe (for the stars again ... ) Maybe some top players in Sweden as well. But nowhere else.
So for a sport where you retire being around 35 ... you go for the dollars. logical.

So today, most best players tried to make it to the NHL ...whether they succeeded or not ... is another affair. But the best players who succeeded play in NHL ! for sure. And they stay as long as they can.

++

Are NHL teams better than Euro teams ? i am actually not convinced. The sum of the parts would say a straight YES.

But results, when NHL teams came to Europe, were talking into this direction ... because Euros were playing against their stars ... but once the AURA dis-inflated, the second and third year ... NHL teams started loosing ... i remember seeing the Rangers being beaten up 8-3 by Zoug ... and it could have easily been more. They looked like pillons in front of a fast Swiss team on big ice. This equation is unforgivable when normal mechanics are at play. More than offsetting the simple sum of the part equation.

Honestly , big ice, small ice plays a role.

Actually just to say

NHL > KHL > SEL > Fin Liga, Swiss LNA, Czech league > AHL > and the others.

Czech league were not supposed to be there ... but they are good and were impressive in these Champion league hockey games (CHL)

I really think that the tax brackets don't go up to 50% for a salary of ELC caliber, making it even "better" so I guess that 700,000 is more 450-500,000 after taxes. Then of course a lot depends on what state you are.

 

[torero]

Common, NHL teams are miles better. None of the euro team has roster comparable to even Arizona. Also I dont think AHL is low in ranking. Its a high quality league. Just specific.

I am not questioning that .... just saying that Europe isn't that bad !!
I also prefer watching NHL games rather than local Swiss games on the medias. Not for nothing.

And AHL is below Europe ... IMO. May be the highest quality behind NHL in NA, but it isn't when i compare to the good European leagues. Whatever. I remember AHL teams coming to Spengler cup ... they never looked above their Euro peers. And it is logical ... who can make more money than what you make in AHL, will go for it meaning Euro leagues. The only reason to stay in AHL for a player who can make more is to expect to play in the NHL. Euro players adjusting to NA ice size.

I really think that the tax brackets don't go up to 50% for a salary of ELC caliber, making it even "better" so I guess that 700,000 is more 450-500,000 after taxes. Then of course a lot depends on what state you are.

OK ... interesting ... i share here a link that is worth what it is worth but still indications. It may not be really up to date and the NHL cap has obviously gone through the rouf ! development may have been different in other leagues.
whatever ... it's an indication.
Hockey team budgets World wide

 

[GermanNuck]

OK ... interesting ... i share here a link that is worth what it is worth but still indications. It may not be really up to date and the NHL cap has obviously gone through the rouf ! development may have been different in other leagues.
whatever ... it's an indication.
Hockey team budgets World wide

DEL budget is now twice as much for most clubs as Red Bull Munich basically forced them to.
However, seems like prices went up as well as the quality didn't really doubled

 

[Pouchkine]

Most NHL teams if you take out 4-5 top players the rest are mostly average guys. That's what 31 teams with a salary cap and a good number of skilled players staying in Europe gives you.

 

[Jablkon]

Top teams in the KHL would smoke your Arizona or Buffalo any day of the week.

Ok, I wasnt precise here. I meant non KHL teams. But still we speaking about 2,4 KHL teams max? Still they are stronger on paper imo.