Let’s even the playing field…after tax payroll cap

[Howboutthempanthers]

Oh look, this thread again with a different title.

 

[tsujimoto74]

So why did Stamkos sign for 8.5 after fielding offers of 10 on the open market.

Vasilevsky takes 9.5 after Price gets 10.5.

Pretty sure Kucherov settled for 9.5 after the Matthews and McDavid contracts.

Point took 9.5 after Marner’s 10.9 with less term.

Hedman has a 7.875 cap hit.

If lack of state income tax is such an enormous factor, why the f*** is Bobrovsky getting $10M? What about Seguin and Benn's contracts? And Stone and Pietrangelo certainly didn't take discounts to play in Vegas.

Tampa is just well managed. And they've gotten basically all of their stars to buy into taking a little less to keep the band together.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

"after tax" is not so simple and one size fits all. Every player's personal tax situation is going to be unique depending on their life circumstances. There is a reason accountants get paid to file tax returns.

Is that reason because accountants and tax prep firms spend tens of millions of dollars per year on lobbying to ensure that taxes stay purposefully complicated, therefore allowing the accountants and tax prep firms to continue to get paid to file tax returns? Because the government seems to know how much we all earn and could probably send out an itemized bill, assuming they actually wanted to.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Is that reason because accountants and tax prep firms spend tens of millions of dollars per year on lobbying to ensure that taxes stay purposefully complicated, therefore allowing the accountants and tax prep firms to continue to get paid to file tax returns? Because the government seems to know how much we all earn and could probably send out an itemized bill, assuming they actually wanted to.

Regardless, until the tax code is written on a napkin, it will remain very complicated and something like this is not very feasible.

 

[WarriorofTime]

So why did Stamkos sign for 8.5 after fielding offers of 10 on the open market.

Vasilevsky takes 9.5 after Price gets 10.5.

Pretty sure Kucherov settled for 9.5 after the Matthews and McDavid contracts.

Point took 9.5 after Marner’s 10.9 with less term.

Hedman has a 7.875 cap hit.

Those players willingly chose to take a bit less so that the team could have additional cap space to remain competitive. It's not their fault the Leafs guys didn't, when I bet a Stanley Cup winning Leafs team would get way better endorsement opportunities in the NHL's largest hockey market than the guys on a Stanley Cup winning Tampa team. Captain Pajamas set the tone at Toronto (oh wait, didn't Leaf fans insist he actually took a discount?) and their key pieces all decided to take Dubas to the cleaners to get the most money they could, which is their right as free individuals. Blaming it on local income tax is so weak, lol.

 

[Bankers Box]

Another thread where we have to listen some
Canadians pathetically attempting to justify why there has not been a cup north of the border for so long.

Just stop, it’s sad and to tell you the truth, no one cares and no one is even talking about this sports oddity outside of a few die hard hockey fans.

Some of you canucks act like you have been personally disrespected bc a small handful of trolls make jokes about it on a message board.

 

[ShootIt]

It's just Tampa.

 

[sh724]

Lets even the playing field....

All teams are only allowed to spend X on coaching staffs
All teams are only allowed to spend Y on training staffs
All teams are only allowed to spend Z on facilities
All player endoresements deals are lumped together and split evenly between all players in the league
Players must take whatever contract has the most $ value to them and are not able to consider the quality of the city, weather, etc.

This post is 100% facetious and is pointing out that there are significant differences between one city and the next that have nothing to do with taxes. Players in higher taxes citites, like Toronto, are going to get significantly more endoresement deals than players in Nashville or Miami. Players that enjoy warmer climates may choose LA over Chicago. Players that have families are more likely to choose ____ over ____. Players that are very into culture might chose _____ over ____. Players that enjoy nightlife are likely to choose ____ over ____.

The list is endless, there is never going to be a way to make all teams "equal" unless you put every team in a bubble. Every city has positive and negative aspects that players have to choose between, taxes may or may not be a consideration depending on the player.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The NHL in 2024 would be full of teams incorporated in other states for tax purposes.

2024 Finals will be the Delaware Avalanche vs the Delaware Lightning

 

[WarriorofTime]

Lets even the playing field....

All teams are only allowed to spend X on coaching staffs
All teams are only allowed to spend Y on training staffs
All teams are only allowed to spend Z on facilities
All player endoresements deals are lumped together and split evenly between all players in the league
Players must take whatever contract has the most $ value to them and are not able to consider the quality of the city, weather, etc.

This post is 100% facetious and is pointing out that there are significant differences between one city and the next that have nothing to do with taxes. Players in higher taxes citites, like Toronto, are going to get significantly more endoresement deals than players in Nashville or Miami. Players that enjoy warmer climates may choose LA over Chicago. Players that have families are more likely to choose ____ over ____. Players that are very into culture might chose _____ over ____. Players that enjoy nightlife are likely to choose ____ over ____.

The list is endless, there is never going to be a way to make all teams "equal" unless you put every team in a bubble. Every city has positive and negative aspects that players have to choose between, taxes may or may not be a consideration depending on the player.

Don't forget players aren't allowed to sign closer to wherever their hometowns are. No more GTHL boys coming home discounts.

 

[EpiPen]

A lot of free agents don't want to sign in Canada. It's obvious the harsh winters mixed with high tax rates have an effect. Yes, players playing for teams with low tax rates still sign big contracts. If you were an NHL player being offered the SAME contract from two separate teams and one of them was considerably lower taxes and warmer weather what would you pick?

 

[Yackiberg8]

No it’s not Kucherov said why he took less than market value (to leave money for a teammate).

So your 100% is … a lie.

And you don’t think no state tax wasn’t part of the reason he was fine with doing that?

 

[x Tame Impala]

And you don’t think no state tax wasn’t part of the reason he was fine with doing that?

Maybe he just wanted to stay with the team that drafted him? It’s not like all these good old Canadian boys are fleeing to represent their home teams when they hit UFA.

You’re just choosing to label it as “lower taxes”, when again…as has been said for like 7 years now on this forum discussing this stupid issue…there are a multitude of factors that go into players deciding where to play. There are also multiple factors that go into take-home-income regardless of where you’re playing. You’re being obtuse by just comparing tax rates. 1) that’s not even how taxes work 2) taxes are FAR from the only fincancial benefit these teams allegedly have or don’t have.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Because our players like to win and yours likes to play fortnite.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about, Stamkos couldn't get any offers, he didn't hit UFA. Kucherov signed before Matthews and McDavid, Price is overpaid because Montreal can't afford to lose him and Hedman signed his contract years ago before he became a Norris finalist.

McDavid signed before Kucherov. When Stamkos signed his contract there was a talking period where players could talk to teams in advance of unrestricted free agency. Toronto talked with Stamkos, it was reported that Toronto would need to pay him several million more to make it equal to what he would net in Tampa.

No need to get defensive about it, respect to Tampa for maximizing what advantages they are given.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Why isn't this in the business of hockey section? Don't people maneuver around these boards?

 

[LaCarriere]

This would probably only have a slight effect on a few minor signings every year. It's such a small factor compared to everything else. City, wanting to be competitive, waiting to play alongside certain players, coaches, etc. Team atmosphere, weather, family, etc. I'm not sure why people think the nhl is played out like a video game, and the players are all robots and not human. Therend are human factors involved in where players sign, beyond money/taxes. Some guys may only get 1 or 2 offers anyways, it's not like many guys can just get up and decide where to go, only the elite, and sometimes they take paycuts to pick where they go.

I think the Toronto Boys all wanted to cash in. I don't think ontarios/canadas taxes are the reason they all took the front office to the cleaners. One guy set the bar and the rest got greedy. All those guys are still going to have generational wealth when they are done, even if they took 1-2 million less per year to allow the team to sign some depth, defense or a goalie. Look at what mackinnon is making. Can't also ignore the overpaid toronto guys are likely making a lot more in endorsements than if they were playing somewhere like Arizona or some other non-existant hockey market. Plus a good chunk of their games are taxed in the US.

The complexity involved really isn't going to make it worth it in the long run. Players/teams/league would probably need to fork out 10s/100s of thousands in accounting fees, and who's gonna pay for it?

Things like coaching, injuries, good/bad reffing, and teams just playing well are going to always to be what decides games, not a few players looking at taxes.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

doesnt really matter until they actually enforce LTIR salary in playoffs

 

[LaCarriere]

Ok then. Lets also even up the sponsorship deals players have available to them too. When Austin Matthews gets paid bank for a 30 second TV add by some Canadian company, that money should be split up among the entire NHLPA.

Why do some people think the only difference between markets is the tax rate? The California teams have done a lot more winning than most other American markets over the last 10 - 20 years despite a higher state tax. Canadian markets have the advantage of a lot of players wanting to play in their home market or country. See John Tavares. The salary cap only applies to players; big markets can still completely outspend other markets on facilities, coaches, trainers, scouts, and executives. Are we going to even up this advantage too? If you want to take away the advantage that tax free states have, then you better be ready to take away each and every advantage every other market has too.

You mean like when toronto went out and spent 50 million on a coach they fired 4 years into his 8 year deal?

 

[glovesave_35]

Time for this again.

Btw, look into property taxes in Texas.

 

[LaCarriere]

The cap isn't about leveling the playing field, it's about suppressing salaries and lowering costs. Besides, a lot of cap stuff is luck. Besides, a lot of teams that seem to be succeeding because of cap management have gotten lucky with timing (Leafs' situation is a lot less grim if the cap kept increasing as usual, but Covid happened). Some guys came up for extensions before major breakouts, some right before big cap bumps, etc. And some guys just take less sometimes to play where they want, particularly for contenders.

It's also worth noting that if you're the Leafs or Habs, they may be higher tax cities, but the bigger thing is probably that there's more media there to ramp up the pressure. The heat around Marner's extension relative to comparable players like Rantanen was just insane. And both Marner and Nylander have notoriously involved fathers when it comes to contract talks.

By no means is rantanens extension great, but when you look at the cap picture of both teams it's not as bad, the avs could absorb overpaying him to keep him while they have a contention window.
Mackinnon doesnt even make 7.0, and landeskog makes 7.5. It looks bad in the sense that he's making more than mackinnon, or the guy wearing the C while not being the best player on the team, but he did sign after those guys also.

It's rumored macK is willing to take another team friendly deal, and maybe sakic knew that when he gave rantanen that deal.

 

[ClydeLee]

All this talk is so idiotic. San Jose got the cheap deals of stars for years, several better rationals are fitting other than just tax breaks.

Really teams who are contenders but haven't won typically can get guys to stay and buy in that they are close to a cup. It's usually cup winners who can't do that because after cups they have agents pushing that bonus. Because some teams started being dumb and not keeling RFA years cheaper isn't the fault of taxes

 

[Space umpire]

And you don’t think no state tax wasn’t part of the reason he was fine with doing that?

Only in your head.
I do think in his case it’s friendship and weather.
Kucherov is one of 3 or 4 guys who all own boats and spend a lot of the summer either partying in the bay or deep sea fishing in the gulf.

 

[Winston Wolf]

This is so naive. It blows my mind that people actually think this way, even after players have admitted that tax situations matter.

Canadian teams not only deal with tax, but also the fact that no American and very few Europeans will choose living in Canada over the US. Not much any league can do to sort that out, it's just a reality. Rich people want to live in the US, it's just the way she goes. Unless you are Dusty Buff and love hunting and fishing, Canada doesn't have as much to offer the ultra rich.

Believe what you want. Of course these players wanted to stay in Tampa, but did any of these players play hardball with Tampa? All of Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov, and Point signed eight year deals and as far as I can remember, only Stamkos even took a look at other offers. Compare that to the messes with Marner and Nylander and Matthews signing an unprecedented five year contract, instead of eight like pretty much every other player of his stature. Marner went after every penny possible and of course Nylander almost went unsigned for the year. Compare them to the Tampa players who were much more valuable and accomplished and it's easy to see the difference in priorities.

Report: Kucherov’s agent doesn’t expect him to sign extension this summer

This is a month and a half before Kucherov signed his deal and his agent is the notoriously difficult Dan Milstein. Instead of taking any kind of hard stance like usual, Milstein basically says that Kucherov wants to be in Tampa and a deal will get done, but probably next season. Instead of trying to get the biggest deal, he didn't even go to free agency.

 

[LaCarriere]

McDavid signed before Kucherov. When Stamkos signed his contract there was a talking period where players could talk to teams in advance of unrestricted free agency. Toronto talked with Stamkos, it was reported that Toronto would need to pay him several million more to make it equal to what he would net in Tampa.

No need to get defensive about it, respect to Tampa for maximizing what advantages they are given.

Was it reported that it was due specifically to taxes? Maybe he likes TB weather. Maybe he didn't want to play infront of the media circus that is Toronto. Maybe those things were why toronto came with a higher price tag.

Sounds like having a bunch of high profile people that have nothing to do with hockey (toronto mayor / canadian tire CEO) at their sales pitch had something to do with it.

Toronto Maple Leafs’ Sales Pitch Apparently Scared Off Steven Stamkos

According to several sources, it was the Toronto Maple Leafs' attempts to woo Steven Stamkos which persuaded him to stay with the Tampa Bay Lightning.

tipofthetower.com

 

[TheRumble]

Ugly truth. It has nothing to do with taxes.

A lot of players don't sign in Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg or Ottawa because they're not great cities to live in if you're rich relative to other cities. The tax thing wouldn't be bad - look at LA and New York. LA is probably the best place in the world to be a millionaire.

Toronto is just near the cap, if they weren't though they'd be a factor every off season due to the city, the GTA component and the fact that they're competitive now. People gloss over this but Stamkos gave them a meeting in the 2016 offseason despite the fact that he was on a team that made the 2015 finals and the 2016 ECF and the Leafs were coming off a last place finish. No other team would be getting treatment like that after a streak of futility like the Leafs. The only other team he met with were the Sharks who were coming off a finals appearance.

Nobody wants to sign in Montreal because of the heavier burden placed on French-Canadians - look at the trash Drouin went through there and the fact that a segment of the French media there attacks non-French players for not speaking French. Koivu, Price, Pacioretty, Weber have all had to deal with it. Koivu literally had the Premier of Quebec criticizing him for it.

Vancouver when they're competitive again will be a free agent destination. City is great for the wealthy.