Let’s even the playing field…after tax payroll cap

[Bones Malone]

Not a coincidence that the states with no income tax are consistently icing teams that excel:

Tampa Bay Lightning
Florida Panthers
Las Vegas
Dallas

Also not a coincidence that Canadian teams, with a much higher income tax rate aren’t coming close to winning a Stanley Cup, a 29 year drought.

Time for the NHL to even the rather lopsided playing field and consider after tax income when setting the payroll cap

Can we also get a cap adjustment for desirability of the city? No way should Buffalo and Winnipeg have to compete on an even keel with LA, TB and Miami.

 

[Voight]

Players are paid in USD, so factor that in too as a pro for players playing in Canadian markets.

Someone making 1mil walks away with 1.28 CAD.

Tax loopholes, charity etc. Thered ways to minimize the discrepancy.

Also, I believe when Tampa plays in OTT, MTL, TOR, they get taxed by the canadian tax code.

There is a slight difference but not as big as people make it out to be. I think weather and media and quality of life play more of a role. The States are just a better place to live if you're rich.

Yes, there is a jock tax where players get taxed every game they play in a different state.

So Stamkos pays no state tax on 41 games a year, but gets taxed when he plays in other states/provinces.

 

[Tyrus]

Winter and beaches probably have a bigger impact than taxes.

Winnipeg could actively give me money and I still wouldn't want to play there and freeze my ass off.

 

[Stony Curtis]

I think the tax situation helped, but even moreso Yzerman got the players to buy into a "team friendly" culture regarding contracts. Actually, that's a really misleading term. Instead of "team friendly," It should be called a "win friendly" culture. Much easier to create a winning culture and feel a part of something when guys are all sacrificing for each other.

 

[RickyLafleur]

Not a coincidence that the states with no income tax are consistently icing teams that excel:

Tampa Bay Lightning
Florida Panthers
Las Vegas
Dallas

Also not a coincidence that Canadian teams, with a much higher income tax rate aren’t coming close to winning a Stanley Cup, a 29 year drought.

Time for the NHL to even the rather lopsided playing field and consider after tax income when setting the payroll cap

Florida and Dallas has consistently excelled? Panthers have missed the playoffs in 3 of the past 5 seasons and Dallas has also missed twice. Both teams were demolished in the most recent playoffs as well.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Maybe because they're not all greedy and didn't follow the lead of Captain Pajamas?

Lots of these Tampa players could've priced themselves out (Stamkos specifically) but they probably decided a few million wasn't much to lose when you can have a potential dynasty and still have enough money to pass down to your next five generations. Go ask Matthews and Marner what their priorities are.

This is so naive. It blows my mind that people actually think this way, even after players have admitted that tax situations matter.

Canadian teams not only deal with tax, but also the fact that no American and very few Europeans will choose living in Canada over the US. Not much any league can do to sort that out, it's just a reality. Rich people want to live in the US, it's just the way she goes. Unless you are Dusty Buff and love hunting and fishing, Canada doesn't have as much to offer the ultra rich.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I think the tax situation helped, but even moreso Yzerman got the players to buy into a "team friendly" culture regarding contracts. Actually, that's a really misleading term. Instead of "team friendly," It should be called a "win friendly" culture. Much easier to create a winning culture and feel a part of something when guys are all sacrificing for each other.

I don't for a second think that in the same culture, with the same group, you would have seen Kucherov take 9.5 in a high tax market. This is just fans naively casting their favourite players in a glowing halo because they like the story line. If Tampa's group had all come up in Winnipeg or Montreal, they would have been asking for much higher contracts to outweigh the tax differences and the lifestyle differences.

We really do love to embue these millionaires with heroic traits, when 98% of decision making is money/business based.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Anything to get Toronto into the 2nd round

 

[BrokenFace]

Ok then. Lets also even up the sponsorship deals players have available to them too. When Austin Matthews gets paid bank for a 30 second TV add by some Canadian company, that money should be split up among the entire NHLPA.

Why do some people think the only difference between markets is the tax rate? The California teams have done a lot more winning than most other American markets over the last 10 - 20 years despite a higher state tax. Canadian markets have the advantage of a lot of players wanting to play in their home market or country. See John Tavares. The salary cap only applies to players; big markets can still completely outspend other markets on facilities, coaches, trainers, scouts, and executives. Are we going to even up this advantage too? If you want to take away the advantage that tax free states have, then you better be ready to take away each and every advantage every other market has too.

 

[Vakarte]

Is there really much evidence that this has been an issue? Fans can point to Canadian star Steven Stamkos taking less with Tampa than what Toronto or Montreal were offering in 2016, but he was choosing to stay with the contender that had drafted him, so it wasn’t all that surprising. We’ve heard about other players preferring America or having Canadian teams on their no-trade list, but we’ve also seen guys like John Tavares accept big money to move up north, and players like Connor McDavid and Carey Price didn’t hesitate to sign long-term extensions with Canadian teams. And while Canadian fans love to bring up tax rates as a significant disadvantage, an NHL agent has largely debunked that concern.

More importantly, NHL players just don’t have that much control over where they play. With few exceptions, they’re bound to the team that drafts them for years, with unrestricted free agency and no-trade protection only becoming available after they’re already past their prime. So even if there’s some occasional truth to this one with guys like Chris Pronger, the impact can’t be huge.

 

[Sky04]

So why did Stamkos sign for 8.5 after fielding offers of 10 on the open market.

Vasilevsky takes 9.5 after Price gets 10.5.

Pretty sure Kucherov settled for 9.5 after the Matthews and McDavid contracts.

Point took 9.5 after Marner’s 10.9 with less term.

Hedman has a 7.875 cap hit.

Because our players like to win and yours likes to play fortnite.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about, Stamkos couldn't get any offers, he didn't hit UFA. Kucherov signed before Matthews and McDavid, Price is overpaid because Montreal can't afford to lose him and Hedman signed his contract years ago before he became a Norris finalist.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Stupid excuses, aisle 9.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Not a coincidence that the states with no income tax are consistently icing teams that excel:

Tampa Bay Lightning
Florida Panthers
Las Vegas
Dallas

Also not a coincidence that Canadian teams, with a much higher income tax rate aren’t coming close to winning a Stanley Cup, a 29 year drought.

Time for the NHL to even the rather lopsided playing field and consider after tax income when setting the payroll cap

What about a tax on teams that have bad management? Why should US based teams be penalized because Vancouver decides to allow Benning to remain in place too long?

Why should US based teams be penalized for Toronto having the Tavares contract? Why conjure up adjustments likee this to bail out Toronto for bad decisions. Toronto can't have it both ways. You can't be the desired destination of every other FA who grew up in Ontario but then expect other teams to bail you out with things like this when you make bad decisions with contracts. This tax adjustment can't be a get out of jail free card for bad decisions.

What about having a tax based on the disparity of the average daily temparature during winter months?

And regarding the tax, it's not like this is anything that's in control of the teams or the league. So acting on this can be somewhat problematic. You're punishing teams for things that are not in their control but giving them a pass for things that are in their control?

 

[WarriorofTime]

More so than taxes, people just need to accept that of the 7 Canadian franchises, 5 of them are small market teams, 1 in Montreal has its own challenges due to the french language and crazy media expectations (look at how an LTIR retired Shea Weber has been villainized by certain sectors of the media for not appreciating the history of the 'C' patch or whatever).... that leaves 1 desirable destination for most players in Toronto, which has never had any trouble attracting free agents. Sunny California also has high local taxes and those teams do not struggle to attract free agents (and LA and Anaheim have won a collective 3 Stanley Cups all in the post-salary cap era).

 

[theimmortal1]

For a good chunk of time a few of the Canadian teams had some of the most favorable tax situations.

But if we wanted to do after tax salary cap to neutralize geographical advantages then you have to go all the way and neutralize endorsement income.

Typically the highest tax places are the biggest cities which provide the most endorsement income. In fact the endorsement income is so large (think Toronto and Montreal) that those players make more $ there

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Is there really much evidence that this has been an issue? Fans can point to Canadian star Steven Stamkos taking less with Tampa than what Toronto or Montreal were offering in 2016, but he was choosing to stay with the contender that had drafted him, so it wasn’t all that surprising. We’ve heard about other players preferring America or having Canadian teams on their no-trade list, but we’ve also seen guys like John Tavares accept big money to move up north, and players like Connor McDavid and Carey Price didn’t hesitate to sign long-term extensions with Canadian teams. And while Canadian fans love to bring up tax rates as a significant disadvantage, an NHL agent has largely debunked that concern.

More importantly, NHL players just don’t have that much control over where they play. With few exceptions, they’re bound to the team that drafts them for years, with unrestricted free agency and no-trade protection only becoming available after they’re already past their prime. So even if there’s some occasional truth to this one with guys like Chris Pronger, the impact can’t be huge.

Price and McDavid are Canadians. I'd be interested to see how many big name Americans sign in Canada, outside of gross overpays, once they are no long restricted.

 

[Space umpire]

So why did Stamkos sign for 8.5 after fielding offers of 10 on the open market.

Vasilevsky takes 9.5 after Price gets 10.5.

Pretty sure Kucherov settled for 9.5 after the Matthews and McDavid contracts.

Point took 9.5 after Marner’s 10.9 with less term.

Hedman has a 7.875 cap hit.

The players themselves have discussed this with reporters.
They took team friendly deals to stay together.
Kucherov specifically voiced that he took his deal to leave enough to keep a deserving teammate.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Bro just build better teams, weve had nincompoops in charge of canadian teams for a quarter century

Too many old boys' clubs in my opinion.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Why stop at taxes? Why not include cost of living and the taxes of away games?

The money matters but let’s be honest you have two choices: play in Florida with beautiful weather and very little media attention, or Canada where you’ll freeze and be hounded non-stop by the media. Seems like an easy choice.

Also Tampa’s lineup is predominantly built through the draft. Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov, Killorn, Point, Vasi, Palat were all drafted by Tampa. They aren’t where they are today because of free agency.

Maybe if Canadian teams had better drafting they’d be better. Toronto’s problem isn’t attracting free agents (see Tavares), but it’s that defense and goaltending matter too.

But wait! They signed Bogosian after he was waived and every team passed on him! Look at how unfair that is!

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Tampa is the only one of those teams that is consistently successful. Too early to tell for Vegas but they just missed the playoffs.

 

[Space umpire]

It is 100% why Tampa has signed them and others to very team friendly deals.

No it’s not Kucherov said why he took less than market value (to leave money for a teammate).

So your 100% is … a lie.

 

[zar]

If teams spend to the cap, playing in a jurisdiction where you pay lower income tax rates is a huge advantage.

Other significant factors:
• weather
• city lifestyle
• city image
• in season travel (this is being under sold in this thread) a it can be a huge advantage to play in the East
• where the players wife wants to live
• fishbowl effect - fan exposure and media (magnified with social media and it’s impacts on the player and their family)

We know players will want to also play where they feel they either have a chance to experience team success or have a chance to prove themselves for a bigger payday on their next contracts. The latter usually being a shorter term acceptance of living in an undesirable geographic location (Edmonton as an example).

For all of the reasons above is the why I have been have had the opinion for a while that it will be a long time before another Canadian team ever wins a Stanley Cup. The stars will need to align. It can happen but it would be a significant feat.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not a coincidence that the states with no income tax are consistently icing teams that excel:

Tampa Bay Lightning
Florida Panthers
Las Vegas
Dallas

Also not a coincidence that Canadian teams, with a much higher income tax rate aren’t coming close to winning a Stanley Cup, a 29 year drought.

Time for the NHL to even the rather lopsided playing field and consider after tax income when setting the payroll cap

Florida? Dallas? Vegas?

What! If you take the top 5 consistent contenders….you’d disprove your own statement

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Why stop at taxes? Why not include cost of living and the taxes of away games?

The money matters but let’s be honest you have two choices: play in Florida with beautiful weather and very little media attention, or Canada where you’ll freeze and be hounded non-stop by the media. Seems like an easy choice.

Also Tampa’s lineup is predominantly built through the draft. Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov, Killorn, Point, Vasi, Palat were all drafted by Tampa. They aren’t where they are today because of free agency.

Maybe if Canadian teams had better drafting they’d be better. Toronto’s problem isn’t attracting free agents (see Tavares), but it’s that defense and goaltending matter too.

But wait! They signed Bogosian after he was waived and every team passed on him! Look at how unfair that is!

Are you suggesting that there is no impact to players wanting to stay and being willing to stay for less? It's almost like having 5-6m extra each season makes a difference! There's a long history of good players not wanting to play in Canada (across many sports). It's just the way it is, no way to balance that. It only got worse due COVID.

 

[zar]

No it’s not Kucherov said why he took less than market value (to leave money for a teammate).

So your 100% is … a lie.

So Kucherov had offers from other teams? I think he was lying because he has never hit Free Agency to know what his market was. (This was pointed out, regarding Stamkos, by another Lightning poster - see the following post)

Because our players like to win and yours likes to play fortnite.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about, Stamkos couldn't get any offers, he didn't hit UFA. Kucherov signed before Matthews and McDavid, Price is overpaid because Montreal can't afford to lose him and Hedman signed his contract years ago before he became a Norris finalist.

In order for Kucherov to make the same amount of money as he does today playing for a team, like say the Toronto Maple Leafs, he would have to earn an AAV of $12,037,790… and CapFriendy does account for the fact players are taxed differently when they team they are playing for are in the road.

In order for Kucherov to net out the same amount as he would playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs as he would playing for the Tampa Bay Lightning, he would have to be paid a significantly greater salary.



Nikita Kucherov…

Tampa Bay Lightning - $9,500,000 AAV Gross Earnings = $5,623,465 Net Income

Toronto Maple Leafs - $9,500,000 AAV Gross Earnings = $4,444,154 Net Income

Toronto Maple Leafs – $12,037,790 AAV Gross Earnings = $5,623,465 Net Income