Leon Draisaitl is one of the best playoff performers in NHL history

[Perfect_Drug]

I think most people who say stuff like "no defence" hasn't watched him since 2017

No they don't watch at all and never have.

I work with a bunch of these guys. The games start way too late, and they're not a fan anyways, so why would they watch? They go off the lazy narrative that every offensive player is horrible defensively.

And every forward in the 40-65 point range is amazing defensively.

 

[phrenssoa]

Awesome glad it proves your point.

My point has always been being a big part of the team and a main contributor and winning the cup.

Winning a cup Is important and it's more important if you win it as one of the core guys



It's brought up all the time and a major knock on him and pushes him back on the all time lists.

I don't think you need to win 4 times but I do believe Ovechkin winning his in 2018 was major. Now I would debate the Conn Smythe win but he was a major contributor regardless and I get it give it to the superstar.

We can agree to disagree but I do hold winning one as a major contributor as a big part of a players legacy and all time rankings.

I’m chiming in late here so not sure if this has been discussed, but I would argue that winning a Cup doesn’t matter to someone’s legacy as much as it used to since it is harder now than ever to win a Cup, with 32 teams in the league.

I can’t help but feel like it counts for something though (fair or not), as much as it is a team award.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Here is the Eastern Markets take on terrible Defensive players:

These guys are all horrible defensively:

Here is the Eastern Markets take on AMAZING Defensive players:
Amazing Defensive Players:

So simple narrative is:

100+ points = horrible defensively
60-ish point = Amazing defensively



And not a single game has ever been watched by any of them.

 

[phrenssoa]

No they don't watch at all and never have.

I work with a bunch of these guys. The games start way too late, and they're not a fan anyways, so why would they watch? They go off the lazy narrative that every offensive player is horrible defensively.

And every forward in the 40-65 point range is amazing defensively.

Honestly, as an Oilers fan, I can totally see where people are coming from regarding Draisaitl’s defensive game. He certainly steps it up in the playoffs, but in the regular season he leaves a lot to be desired. He often looks disinterested defensively and is very undisciplined.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I’m chiming in late here so not sure if this has been discussed, but I would argue that winning a Cup doesn’t matter to someone’s legacy as much as it used to since it is harder now than ever to win a Cup, with 32 teams in the league.

I can’t help but feel like it counts for something though (fair or not), as much as it is a team award.

It's basically an opinion thing.

If you want to be considered amongst the best you need to win as one of the best.

Now I wouldn't put Draisaitl below Guentzel just because he won a cup already. That's ridiculous. But when comparing to peers let's say McKinnon that would be a consideration for me.

I think about how I played football (soccer) and in 4 years we won twice. I wouldn't trade one of those wins for let's say leading the league in goals during the regular season.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Honestly, as an Oilers fan, I can totally see where people are coming from regarding Draisaitl’s defensive game. He certainly steps it up in the playoffs, but in the regular season he leaves a lot to be desired. He often looks disinterested defensively and is very undisciplined.

And without ever having watched a single game from any other player who is top-10 in scoring.

They are all just as bad defensively.



See how easy that is?

 

[phrenssoa]

And without ever having watched a single game from any other player who is top-10 in scoring.

They are all just as bad defensively.



See how easy that is?

I only really watch the Oilers and Jets so can’t really comment on players on other teams. But I would say that McDavid has been much better than Draisaitl defensively over the last couple of years. Draisaitl is just a little bit lazy.

But as I said, he steps it up in the playoffs, and that’s all that matters right now.

 

[bucks_oil]

I only really watch the Oilers and Jets so can’t really comment on players on other teams. But I would say that McDavid has been much better than Draisaitl defensively over the last couple of years. Draisaitl is just a little bit lazy.

But as I said, he steps it up in the playoffs, and that’s all that matters right now.

I agree with this.

McDavid in a regular game is gonna back check and puck hound like crazy. He's more consistent defensively.

Draisaitl can be a little be lazy (often tired) on the back check and conserves his energy to allow 30 min a night games.

However when Draisaitl is "ON" and McDavid is "ON", ie in all playoff games... Draisaitl is miles ahead of McDavid defensively (he just reads the defensive game better) AND honestly is one of the better defensive forwards IN THE GAME... and I live in Boston, my second team, so I do know what defensive forwards actually look like.

 

[BagHead]

Awesome glad it proves your point.

My point has always been being a big part of the team and a main contributor and winning the cup.

Winning a cup Is important and it's more important if you win it as one of the core guys



It's brought up all the time and a major knock on him and pushes him back on the all time lists.

I don't think you need to win 4 times but I do believe Ovechkin winning his in 2018 was major. Now I would debate the Conn Smythe win but he was a major contributor regardless and I get it give it to the superstar.

We can agree to disagree but I do hold winning one as a major contributor as a big part of a players legacy and all time rankings.

Is Ovechkin only worthy of being arguably the best goal scorer in hockey history because he won a Cup, or because he won 9 Rocket Richards? Would losing in the Cup finals because his goalie sucked one game, and missing the Conn Smythe as a result, really change how great of a goal scorer he was? Or even how good he was in that playoff? He's exactly the same guy/player in both situations, so why does the Cup win matter?

Where would you rank Ray Bourque had he not been an 11th-hour Av? Does the Cup he didn't have to carry his team to really weigh that heavily in his legacy of 5 Norris trophies?

*edit* To be clear, I think playoff success is important, but it's also situational. It depends on the player and what their claim to fame is. Claude Lemieux would not be as well known if not for his '95 playoff scoring and Cup win.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Is Ovechkin only worthy of being arguably the best goal scorer in hockey history because he won a Cup, or because he won 9 Rocket Richards? Would losing in the Cup finals because his goalie sucked one game, and missing the Conn Smythe as a result, really change how great of a goal scorer he was? Or even how good he was in that playoff? He's exactly the same guy/player in both situations, so why does the Cup win matter?

Where would you rank Ray Bourque had he not been an 11th-hour Av? Does the Cup he didn't have to carry his team to really weigh that heavily in his legacy of 5 Norris trophies?

*edit* To be clear, I think playoff success is important, but it's also situational. It depends on the player and what their claim to fame is. Claude Lemieux would not be as well known if not for his '95 playoff scoring and Cup win.

I will just touch on Ovechkin.

Would he be considered the best or among the best goal scorers ever without a cup. Yes.
Would his all time standing be changed without the cup and performance attached to the cup. Also yes.

A cup win when you are the one of the important pieces is legacy changing and changes how you are ranked all time.

Joe Thornton never won. Guess what docked on the all time.

We have a difference of opinion mentioning on what a cup win means.

I mentioned this in another post. I was on a football (soccer) team and we won twice in 4 years. Would I rather have scored the most goals in replace of a win. The answer is no.

Winning matters. The ultimate goal in the NHL is to hoist the Stanley Cup. It defines the legacy and when comparing amongst peers winning a cup 100% matters.

I don't think any further conversation will be constructive as my current understanding is you do not believe a cup win matters in the context I have laid out above. I firmly believe it does.

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

Is Ovechkin only worthy of being arguably the best goal scorer in hockey history because he won a Cup, or because he won 9 Rocket Richards? Would losing in the Cup finals because his goalie sucked one game, and missing the Conn Smythe as a result, really change how great of a goal scorer he was? Or even how good he was in that playoff? He's exactly the same guy/player in both situations, so why does the Cup win matter?

Where would you rank Ray Bourque had he not been an 11th-hour Av? Does the Cup he didn't have to carry his team to really weigh that heavily in his legacy of 5 Norris trophies?

*edit* To be clear, I think playoff success is important, but it's also situational. It depends on the player and what their claim to fame is. Claude Lemieux would not be as well known if not for his '95 playoff scoring and Cup win.

Actually yes, Ray Bourque was not a great playoff performer. Go look at the Bill Lindsay goal, the Brad May goal, Bourque burned for goals by mediocre players. He was lucky he was able to ride on Joe Sakics coat tails.....

 

[Juxta Position]

I agree with this.

McDavid in a regular game is gonna back check and puck hound like crazy. He's more consistent defensively.

Draisaitl can be a little be lazy (often tired) on the back check and conserves his energy to allow 30 min a night games.

However when Draisaitl is "ON" and McDavid is "ON", ie in all playoff games... Draisaitl is miles ahead of McDavid defensively (he just reads the defensive game better) AND honestly is one of the better defensive forwards IN THE GAME... and I live in Boston, my second team, so I do know what defensive forwards actually look like.

That's exactly it in the regular season. Drai has ALWAYS had a proclivity to taking long shifts and getting tired by the last 20-30 seconds and missing defensive details. In the playoffs however, that disappears and he doesn't tend to take those ridiculous extended shifts as much.

 

[bucks_oil]

That's exactly it in the regular season. Drai has ALWAYS had a proclivity to taking long shifts and getting tired by the last 20-30 seconds and missing defensive details. In the playoffs however, that disappears and he doesn't tend to take those ridiculous extended shifts as much.

... and don't forget coasting to the bench on the change. He has this weird juxtaposition... he tries so hard he loses urgency. In the regular season he's like that guy working such long hours he won't go to bed and get rest... whereas in the playoffs he's high impact and then hands off to the next guy. (one more reason why I like the duo split up)

 

[Lannes]

Not winning a game past the 2nd round is not "the dumbest shit". No amount of excuses can change that fact.

You can't call someone the greatest playoff performer ever when they've never come close to playing a full playoff. You just can't. Deal with it.

This guy's taking Patrick Maroon over Draisaitl for a playoff run

 

[Coffey]

This guy's taking Patrick Maroon over Draisaitl for a playoff run

FAT BALLOON ver2.0!

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

Honestly, as an Oilers fan, I can totally see where people are coming from regarding Draisaitl’s defensive game. He certainly steps it up in the playoffs, but in the regular season he leaves a lot to be desired. He often looks disinterested defensively and is very undisciplined.

No more than most other stars. But his coach uses him in defensive situations so his underlying numbers look worse than guys who their coach doesn't use in those situations

 

[nbwingsfan]

How can this be? Pointing out he doesn't know where his end of the ice is and no matter how many he scores if he is letting in more against gets you laugh reactions and called names.

I know it really hurts to see players vastly out performing Matthews, but I promise you it’s going to be okay.

 

[phrenssoa]

No more than most other stars. But his coach uses him in defensive situations so his underlying numbers look worse than guys who their coach doesn't use in those situations

He doesn’t play on the PK. He only plays in defensive situations at even strength because he’s good at faceoffs. He’s not good defensively. He’s below average. Why are you lying to yourself?

But as I said he steps it up in the playoffs, and that’s all that matters right now.

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

He doesn’t play on the PK. He only plays in defensive situations at even strength because he’s good at faceoffs. He’s not good defensively. He’s below average. Why are you lying to yourself?

But as I said he steps it up in the playoffs, and that’s all that matters right now.

Drai was 18th in league for most defensive zone faceoffs by a centreman. Weird that his coach keeps doing that if he's not good defensively

 

[phrenssoa]

Drai was 18th in league for most defensive zone faceoffs by a centreman. Weird that his coach keeps doing that if he's not good defensively

As I said he’s good on faceoffs so that makes sense. Plus he’s asked to play a lot of minutes. There’s only so many offensive zone start opportunities when you have McDavid on a different line.

 

[PaulD]

So lets say McDavid/Drai doesn't win a cup until his last season as a hockey player before retirement and by this point he is a merc signing 1 year contracts and hardly putting up 70-80 points a year. He wins a cup that last year and hes suddenly among the greats? and if he doesn't he isn't?

If he doesn't he is stull among the greats. As is Dionne, Park, Lindros, Thorton, Bure.
The cherry on top is the Cup.
Gretz, Sid, Mess, Lafluer, Bossy, Mario

 

[pi314]

I will just touch on Ovechkin.

Would he be considered the best or among the best goal scorers ever without a cup. Yes.
Would his all time standing be changed without the cup and performance attached to the cup. Also yes.

A cup win when you are the one of the important pieces is legacy changing and changes how you are ranked all time.

Joe Thornton never won. Guess what docked on the all time.

We have a difference of opinion mentioning on what a cup win means.

I mentioned this in another post. I was on a football (soccer) team and we won twice in 4 years. Would I rather have scored the most goals in replace of a win. The answer is no.

Winning matters. The ultimate goal in the NHL is to hoist the Stanley Cup. It defines the legacy and when comparing amongst peers winning a cup 100% matters.

I don't think any further conversation will be constructive as my current understanding is you do not believe a cup win matters in the context I have laid out above. I firmly believe it does.

This.

The point of the game is to win.

You can put up big points and play losing 7-6 hockey.

Players standing is influenced by winning and rightfully so.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here's a complete(*) list of players who have scored 20+ playoff points in at least three consecutive playoffs:

1. Guy Lafleur (1977, 1978, 1979)
2. Bryan Trottier (1980, 1981, 1982, 1983)
3. Mike Bossy (1980, 1981, 1982, 1983)
4. Denis Potvin (1981, 1982, 1983)
5. Wayne Gretzky (1983, 1984, 1985)
6. Mark Messier (1983, 1984, 1985)
7. Jari Kurri (1983, 1984, 1985)
8. Wayne Gretzky (1987, 1988, 1989) - a 2nd streak
9. Sergei Fedorov (1995, 1996, 1997, 1998)
10. Nikita Kucherov (2020, 2021, 2022)
11. Connor McDavid (2022, 2023, 2024)
12. Leon Draisaitl (2022, 2023, 2024)

(*) Subject to verification by God and/or pnep

 

[Frank Drebin]

Yeah, but what can he do past the second round

 

[syz]

Had some good back checks and defensive plays tonight. Has an index finger wrapped like a mummy which is a bit concerning.