Confirmed with Link: Legwand to Wings for Eaves, Jarnkrok and a cond. 3rd Part II

[Frk It]

Yes, Holland mortgaged some of the future for possible short term success. Packing it in and not trying to make the playoffs isn't in this organization's DNA, at least not right now. If the plan is to have Datsyuk and Zetterberg back in late April/early May and you think this team has a shot of sneaking into the playoffs, you have to take the chance. What if they sneak in and go all the way?

I'm not thrilled with trading Jarnkrok, not because I think he'll be in impact player later in his career but because I was interested to see how he was going to develop with the Red Wings.

As for the future of the center position, if they can't manage to draft an elite one soon, the coaching system will likely change and rely on less pretty plays and puck possession and more dump and chase, grinding style.

Not making a trade because you already have a bunch of good centers that are all hurt DOES NOT EQUAL packing it in. That's called being smart. It's taking a look at the situation you are in, and being realistic. It's not Holland's fault this is the most injury depleted season we have ever had. I think most of the fans get that.

But trading for Legwand isn't going to heal Datsyuk and Zetterberg. It's a band-aid over a really huge wound, that also factors in the defense playing like crap, and Howard having for the most part a lousy season.

David Legwand is not going to carry this team. Weiss, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Helm are out. Trading for Legwand was pointless. He gave this team a tiny better chance at make the play-offs, and we already have a lot of money and contracts invested in several centers. It was a total panic button, knee-jerk, crap move.

 

[Bench]

Trading for Legwand was pointless. He gave this team a tiny better chance at make the play-offs..

Those two sentences don't mesh.

If the Wings make the playoffs and Datsyuk and Zetterberg return, they are going to have one of best center groups in the entire NHL. But in order to get to that point, they need to make the playoffs without them. And a tiny chance better is kind of important when we're talking about a race that will likely come down to a handful of points.

 

[Frk It]

Those two sentences don't mesh.

If the Wings make the playoffs and Datsyuk and Zetterberg return, they are going to have one of best center groups in the entire NHL. But in order to get to that point, they need to make the playoffs without them. And a tiny chance better is kind of important when we're talking about a race that will likely come down to a handful of points.

Since January datsyuks knee continues to get worse and worse. It's pointing in the direction he's not getting better unless he gets surgery. Zetterberg is out a minimum 8 weeks them will have to work his way back into game shape.

Counting on them coming back and things being all good and well is unrealistic. Would have been better to play out the season not giving up assets, let those guys heal, and go full ahead next year.

Trying to trade yourself out of injury problems is stupid.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Jarnkrok is the only prospect of any significance he's traded in a decade, am I wrong? Even then, he's not even the top prospect.

Holland has many faults, but trading prospects isn't one of them. If anything, he holds too many until they hit waivers or leave for nothing to the European leagues or KHL.

I'm not criticizing him for trading too many prospects, but he did trade an asset away (top 6 center prospect) from an organizational weakness, for short term potential gain. And as others have stated in other threads, he doesn't have the best track record of signings and trades lately, regardless.(though he hasn't made too many trades.) And my final point is that we need to use our first round pick on a center.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'm not criticizing him for trading too many prospects, but he did trade an asset away (top 6 center prospect) from an organizational weakness, for short term potential gain. And as others have stated in other threads, he doesn't have the best track record of signings and trades lately, regardless.(though he hasn't made too many trades.) And my final point is that we need to use our first round pick on a center.

Still hasn't traded a roster player! Eaves don't count. Last one was Jason Freaking Williams.

 

[SoupNazi]

Still hasn't traded a roster player! Eaves don't count. Last one was Jason Freaking Williams.

Really? Eaves wasn't on the roster?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Since January datsyuks knee continues to get worse and worse. It's pointing in the direction he's not getting better unless he gets surgery. Zetterberg is out a minimum 8 weeks them will have to work his way back into game shape.

Counting on them coming back and things being all good and well is unrealistic. Would have been better to play out the season not giving up assets, let those guys heal, and go full ahead next year.

Trying to trade yourself out of injury problems is stupid.

Datsyuk never gave his knee the time to properly heal. They said he was basically working out off ice every day when he was out all of January. What are you talking about surgery for when 3 of 3 doctors he's since seen have said that surgery is not necessary - only time and rest?

Even if Datsyuk doesn't return to full form, he's much more valuable at 75% than a player like Glendening or Andersson is at 100%.

If he returns after 3 weeks of being shut down, Detroit will have 10 remaining games. That's still a lot of points on the line.

In regards to Zetterberg, if there's one player in the world who could return and not miss a beat because it's the playoffs it's him. 6-8 weeks by the way. And like Datsyuk, even a 75% Zetterberg is much more valuable than most centers.

Is it certain that Detroit makes the playoffs let alone both players returning to full strength? Of course not. But it's stupid to throw in the towel when there is no limit how good this team can be if everything fell into place. A Cup run is too valuable to give up on. And as I've stated, Legwand is very unlikely a rental trade at the end of the day. He'll make this team stronger the next couple years when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still here together.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I'm not criticizing him for trading too many prospects, but he did trade an asset away (top 6 center prospect) from an organizational weakness, for short term potential gain. And as others have stated in other threads, he doesn't have the best track record of signings and trades lately, regardless.(though he hasn't made too many trades.) And my final point is that we need to use our first round pick on a center.

Short term as in potentially 2-3 years. 2-3 years as in when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still here together and likely to be impactful players.

Legwand gives this team a better chance this season and likely in the next 2-3 years more than Jarnkrok may ever. He also makes center depth a non issue for 2-3 years, allowing for more draft and development. Jarnkrok wasn't an elite prospect. He just was the highest at our weakest position. A position that once again won't be needed now in to immediate future.

 

[Frk It]

The notion that not making a trade = throwing in the towel/packing it in/tanking, is ****ing stupid.

So every time a bubble playoff team gets injured at one position they should go out and make a trade at the deadline for it?

Absolutely not. Sometimes the best move is no move.

If Holland didn't make a trade no one would have said we are throwing in the towel, or trying to tank. It's a bunch of BS.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

The notion that not making a trade = throwing in the towel/packing it in/tanking, is ****ing stupid.

So every time a bubble playoff team gets injured at one position they should go out and make a trade at the deadline for it?

Absolutely not. Sometimes the best move is no move.

If Holland didn't make a trade no one would have said we are throwing in the towel, or trying to tank. It's a bunch of BS.

The idea that the team we could potentially ice during the playoffs is a bubble team is ****ing stupid. The team is going through the worst injury plagued season we've ever seen as Detroit fans, is icing 6 players that weren't even in the lineup on opening night, and have actually realized that players like Nyquist and Tatar (not to mention Sheahan and Jurco) are far more valuable than the likes of Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Tootoo, Eaves, and Emmerton. And guess what? We're currently a bubble team with all of that. What do you think we are when closer to even strength?

Detroit is not your ordinary bubble team and you'd have to be blind to not see that.

 

[Frk It]

The idea that the team we could potentially ice during the playoffs is a bubble team is ****ing stupid. The team is going through the worst injury plagued season we've ever seen as Detroit fans, is icing 6 players that weren't even in the lineup on opening night, and have actually realized that players like Nyquist and Tatar (not to mention Sheahan and Jurco) are far more valuable than the likes of Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Tootoo, Eaves, and Emmerton. And guess what? We're currently a bubble team with all of that. What do you think we are when closer to even strength?

Detroit is not your ordinary bubble team and you'd have to be blind to not see that.

Ugh. Should not have said bubble team. Whatever, that's just because I don't see us going back to being healthy. If healthy, of course we're not.

My main point was this, and I don't think anyone can refute it:

"The notion that not making a trade = throwing in the towel/packing it in/tanking, is ****ing stupid."

I don't know where people are getting that crap from.

 

[Spitfire11]

I'm sorry but deciding to roll with Andersson-Sheahan-Emmerton-Glendening down the middle for 20 games in this EC race is throwing in the towel.

This is a world class organization, and although their chance is slimmer than previous years they still have a chance to get in and go on a run. You can count on one hand the number of chances at a Cup run Datsyuk/Zetterberg have left in them, and throwing one away when the cost is Jarnkrok and a pick is not a very good move.

It might not work out, heck they might even miss the playoffs entirely but they do so knowing they gave these guys a fair chance.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Ugh. Should not have said bubble team. Whatever, that's just because I don't see us going back to being healthy. If healthy, of course we're not.

My main point was this, and I don't think anyone can refute it:

"The notion that not making a trade = throwing in the towel/packing it in/tanking, is ****ing stupid."

I don't know where people are getting that crap from.

Maybe because Joakim Andersson was going to be their 1st line center for at least a couple weeks?

Detroit had an opportunity to upgrade immediately while also potentially improving the team for the next 2-3 years and they went for it. That opportunity doesn't always present itself, but it did. They didn't give up their 1st rounder, which could quickly become our #1 center prospect even if we hasn't traded Jarnkrok.

I think people go overboard with the way they view some prospects. Jarnkrok wasn't a Zetterberg level prospect. He's actually regressed as a prospect since the first year he was drafted whereas Z went from 7th rounder to potential best prospect in the world. What exactly does losing Jarnkrok do when we now have center depth for the next few years? Even without Legwand, who does Jarnkrok beat out the next 2 years?

Detroit's a better team today and likely the next couple years because of the trade. I'm willing to give up a Jarnkrok and a 2nd/3rd for that potential improvement during Datsyuk and Zetterberg's final years together. And in the meantime we can develop and draft our next center prospects while we see what Jarnkrok becomes.

 

[PullHard]

Maybe because Joakim Andersson was going to be their 1st line center for at least a couple weeks?

Detroit had an opportunity to upgrade immediately while also potentially improving the team for the next 2-3 years and they went for it. That opportunity doesn't always present itself, but it did. They didn't give up their 1st rounder, which could quickly become our #1 center prospect even if we hasn't traded Jarnkrok.

I think people go overboard with the way they view some prospects. Jarnkrok wasn't a Zetterberg level prospect. He's actually regressed as a prospect since the first year he was drafted whereas Z went from 7th rounder to potential best prospect in the world. What exactly does losing Jarnkrok do when we now have center depth for the next few years? Even without Legwand, who does Jarnkrok beat out the next 2 years?

Detroit's a better team today and likely the next couple years because of the trade. I'm willing to give up a Jarnkrok and a 2nd/3rd for that potential improvement during Datsyuk and Zetterberg's final years together. And in the meantime we can develop and draft our next center prospects while we see what Jarnkrok becomes.

While I agree with everything you've said in this post, why does Jarnkrok have to beat anyone out in 2 or "a few" years? You don't draft an 18 year old to be your best player when he is 21/22/23 years old. He would be one of our top 6 Cs when he is able to beat out a guy like Weiss in ~3 years, or slot in behind Z and Weiss when Datsyuk likely departs after his contract is up, or whatever. Why would we need him in 2 seasons from now with Datsyuk, Z, Weiss, Helm, Andersson, Glendening, etc. on the team? The point of having young prospects is to develop them and let them win their roles when players depart or regress, or at least that's how it usually is in Detroit. Him apparently being "antsy" obviously adds another spin on the whole situation, was just wondering why you decided to bring the 2 seasons from now thing up is all.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

While I agree with everything you've said in this post, why does Jarnkrok have to beat anyone out in 2 or "a few" years? You don't draft an 18 year old to be your best player when he is 21/22/23 years old. He would be one of our top 6 Cs when he is able to beat out a guy like Weiss in ~3 years, or slot in behind Z and Weiss when Datsyuk likely departs after his contract is up, or whatever. Why would we need him in 2 seasons from now with Datsyuk, Z, Weiss, Helm, Andersson, Glendening, etc. on the team? The point of having young prospects is to develop them and let them win their roles when players depart or regress, or at least that's how it usually is in Detroit. Him apparently being "antsy" obviously adds another spin on the whole situation, was just wondering why you decided to bring the 2 seasons from now thing up is all.

I'm using the 2-3 year reference because that's the time frame where we have both Datsyuk and Zetterberg, which is still a great opportunity.

So my point is that this trade makes us a better team right now, and likely in the next couple years if Legwand is brought back which seems likely. Jarnkrok isn't likely to be a more valuable player than Legwand in that time frame.

Will he be more valuable 5-6 years down the road? There's a good chance. But even that is a question mark until we actually see Jarnkrok play at the NHL level. And like I've said, he's not an elite, can't miss player, so it's a question mark. So I'm of the belief that it's a trade that actually makes a lot of sense, even if Jarnkrok pans out to be a 2nd/3rd line center down the road. That gives Detroit that much time to draft and develop their next center prospect(s).

The main point if prospects is to develop them into your team's future, but another point of prospects is to use them as pieces to make upgrades. That's what Detroit did.

 

[PullHard]

I'm using the 2-3 year reference because that's the time frame where we have both Datsyuk and Zetterberg, which is still a great opportunity.

So my point is that this trade makes us a better team right now, and likely in the next couple years if Legwand is brought back which seems likely. Jarnkrok isn't likely to be a more valuable player than Legwand in that time frame.

Will he be more valuable 5-6 years down the road? There's a good chance. But even that is a question mark until we actually see Jarnkrok play at the NHL level. And like I've said, he's not an elite, can't miss player, so it's a question mark. So I'm of the belief that it's a trade that actually makes a lot of sense, even if Jarnkrok pans out to be a 2nd/3rd line center down the road. That gives Detroit that much time to draft and develop their next center prospect(s).

The main point if prospects is to develop them into your team's future, but another point of prospects is to use them as pieces to make upgrades. That's what Detroit did.

I'm in agreement with this mindset. I just wish it could've been a D, but the market wasn't there for one, and we needed a C immediately. That makes more sense to me now, thanks.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I'm in agreement with this mindset. I just wish it could've been a D, but the market wasn't there for one, and we needed a C immediately. That makes more sense to me now, thanks.

If you would have told me a day or two prior to the deadline, I thought there was no chance of them going after a center. The team's biggest need when healthy is obviously on the blueline. Another top 4 defenceman with more puck moving ability than Quincey could help out a lot. But once you lose Datsyuk, Helm, and Weiss for at least a couple weeks (and are already without Z) in the midst of the playoff chase, you clearly have a new "biggest need."

And I like the deal because:

1) it didn't cost a fortune; holding onto this year's 1st rounder was more important than holding onto Jarnkrok for me

2) it helped immediately while also providing center depth when healthy and likely in the coming few seasons

3) that center depth can potentially be used to upgrade the blueline via trade over the summer or even next season; a player like Helm could be expendable if he helps bring in a legit top 4 defencemen when you have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Legwand, Sheahan, Weiss, Andersson to run down the middle.

Detroit has a lot of options going into next season, which looks very promising.

When I first heard the deal "2nd/3rd rder, prospect, and Eaves" I thought great depending on who the prospect was. When I first heard Jarnkrok it put a sour taste in my mouth. But after really looking at the big picture and what it all meant i thought the trade made a lot of sense to me. And that's completely ignoring the Jarnkrok possibly not happy with Detroit angle.

 

[PullHard]

If you would have told me a day or two prior to the deadline, I thought there was no chance of them going after a center. The team's biggest need when healthy is obviously on the blueline. Another top 4 defenceman with more puck moving ability than Quincey could help out a lot. But once you lose Datsyuk, Helm, and Weiss for at least a couple weeks (and are already without Z) in the midst of the playoff chase, you clearly have a new "biggest need."

And I like the deal because:

1) it didn't cost a fortune; holding onto this year's 1st rounder was more important than holding onto Jarnkrok for me

2) it helped immediately while also providing center depth when healthy and likely in the coming few seasons

3) that center depth can potentially be used to upgrade the blueline via trade over the summer or even next season; a player like Helm could be expendable if he helps bring in a legit top 4 defencemen when you have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Legwand, Sheahan, Weiss, Andersson to run down the middle.

Detroit has a lot of options going into next season, which looks very promising.

When I first heard the deal "2nd/3rd rder, prospect, and Eaves" I thought great depending on who the prospect was. When I first heard Jarnkrok it put a sour taste in my mouth. But after really looking at the big picture and what it all meant i thought the trade made a lot of sense to me. And that's completely ignoring the Jarnkrok possibly not happy with Detroit angle.

Yeah I agree. Giving up a (what looks to be more and more likely) 3rd rounder + Jarnkrok for what I would consider good 2C and great 3C for the coming seasons makes sense. What I don't understand is, if this team is always competing and "going for it," especially if the reasoning is "Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't getting any younger," what have we been doing since 2009?

 

[Claypool]

What I don't understand is, if this team is always competing and "going for it," especially if the reasoning is "Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't getting any younger," what have we been doing since 2009?

Trying to sign free agents? They've hit a weird spot where the team's best players are too old to trade for fair value and that the young players they have aren't good or experienced enough to package for an available superstar.

You could argue Holland hasn't been aggressive enough during free agency, but we've been down that road before.

Detroit decided to hang onto their picks and prospects over the last five years because they knew they'd be in this situation eventually. It seems they gambled by trying to stockpile young players while being relatively competitive instead of going "all in" every trade deadline like in year's past. I think the transition is going quite well, all things considering. The Red Wings have some very nice pieces on the roster and in the system for once. Vancouver's window has effectively closed, for example, and they really don't have any promising young players ready to step in and play now. Detroit is ahead of the curve.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Yeah I agree. Giving up a (what looks to be more and more likely) 3rd rounder + Jarnkrok for what I would consider good 2C and great 3C for the coming seasons makes sense. What I don't understand is, if this team is always competing and "going for it," especially if the reasoning is "Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't getting any younger," what have we been doing since 2009?

That's a fair question, but at the same time we have to be realistic about it. Detroit had nowhere to go but down after 09. We pretty much knew that going in because it would have been impossible to have the same team in 09-10 because of the cap. Detroit was obviously a game away from winning back to back Cups. That's crazy when you think about it. Teams that win back-to-back Cups since the Montreal and Islanders dynasties of the 70s/80s:

97-98 Detroit: pre cap powerhouse team with the extra motivation of the accident/Vladdy

91-92 Pittsburgh: prime Mario Lemieux

87-88 Oilers: prime Wayne Gretzky

In other words, it just doesn't happen without having something special (as in the greatest forwards to ever play the game or unique motivation).

So Detroit was going to fall back to Earth some; it had to happen. They weren't going to make deep runs every year, the NHL just doesn't work like that. You add in the decline and retirement of Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and it was and still is a transition/rebuilding period and we still made the playoffs every year, gave a Cup champion like Chicago a run for their money, and developed a great prospect pool without having to be a bad team. And now I feel like our forward depth (when healthy) is very strong for the next couple seasons (largely thanks to the development of the youth) and we have the potential to truly contend again.

Has Holland and company made every right move in that time frame? No, of course not. They're human and they made some absolute head scratchers (Cleary and Samuelsson in particular) and some that didn't work out as well as they hoped (Quincey, Tootoo). But at the end of the day I believe we're sitting in a good position and we did remain competitive. Isn't that pretty much all you can realistically ask for in a transition period? So now we have this window of opportunity in the next few seasons and then we'll likely go through another transition period. You hope to get lucky with health and win a Cup along the way while remaining competitive during the transition periods. Because even teams that you don't expect to make runs can in the NHL playoffs.

 

[Kyleftlx]

This trade will look a lot better if Legwand re-ups in Detroit this offseason. If he leaves, it will be a definite loss (unless Detroit wins the cup), but if he stays and re-signs for a few years, he could be a huge upgrade and become that top 6 forward fans have been looking for the past few years. It's another piece to the puzzle. If Holland can somehow package a couple of spare parts for a defenseman this offseason, Detroit could become a legitimate stanley cup threat again for at least a couple of seasons. It's not the best trade right now, but if Holland builds upon this trade, it could be pretty good.

 

[Frk It]

Maybe because Joakim Andersson was going to be their 1st line center for at least a couple weeks?

Detroit had an opportunity to upgrade immediately while also potentially improving the team for the next 2-3 years and they went for it. That opportunity doesn't always present itself, but it did. They didn't give up their 1st rounder, which could quickly become our #1 center prospect even if we hasn't traded Jarnkrok.

I think people go overboard with the way they view some prospects. Jarnkrok wasn't a Zetterberg level prospect. He's actually regressed as a prospect since the first year he was drafted whereas Z went from 7th rounder to potential best prospect in the world. What exactly does losing Jarnkrok do when we now have center depth for the next few years? Even without Legwand, who does Jarnkrok beat out the next 2 years?

Detroit's a better team today and likely the next couple years because of the trade. I'm willing to give up a Jarnkrok and a 2nd/3rd for that potential improvement during Datsyuk and Zetterberg's final years together. And in the meantime we can develop and draft our next center prospects while we see what Jarnkrok becomes.

I hear you. Fair point. Last night I was tired and being obnoxious.

From my perspective, if you've already got a bunch of good centers under contract, they just all happen to be hurt, you shouldn't have to go out and get another one, otherwise you are intentionally tanking. If we didn't get Weiss last summer I wouldn't mind the trade as much. Just really seemed like overkill for me personally.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I hear you. Fair point. Last night I was tired and being obnoxious.

From my perspective, if you've already got a bunch of good centers under contract, they just all happen to be hurt, you shouldn't have to go out and get another one, otherwise you are intentionally tanking. If we didn't get Weiss last summer I wouldn't mind the trade as much. Just really seemed like overkill for me personally.

You have to think there is some plan to ship out a center this offseason. Otherwise they let Legwand go and they end up simply acquiring the exact thing they said they weren't going to get at the deadline.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

You have to think there is some plan to ship out a center this offseason. Otherwise they let Legwand go and they end up simply acquiring the exact thing they said they weren't going to get at the deadline.

Still waiting to hear some quotes on Legwand's intentions/interest in Detroit. I'm certain there was some discussion before the trade went down, but that's just speculation on my part.

Isn't there an "Ask Ansar" coming up soon?

 

[probertrules24]

Still waiting to hear some quotes on Legwand's intentions/interest in Detroit. I'm certain there was some discussion before the trade went down, but that's just speculation on my part.

Isn't there an "Ask Ansar" coming up soon?

I was reading an article somewhere that interviewed Legwands father and he was mentioning how David and the rest of the family are happy he came home. It sounded like he was trying to choose his words wisely and not put any thing out there but the impression was Davids wife and family were very happy. My guess this will make it much easier to get him re-signed knowing his family is happy.