News Article: Lebreton

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George Carlin used to say that two of the most narcissistic things humans created were golf courses and cemeteries. I watched that new indoor golf league the other day. Maybe golf will head into the matrix soon.



Hockey is a sport for the affluent to play and watch. This idea that ticket prices are set for the average family of 4 has always been a myth. But when Ottawa was good, fans already showed that they can sell those tickets. Need a bigger city to do that when the team isnt so good. And we are growing.

city's own growth projection.

It will be 2046 before we hit 1.4 M. And that has been largely at the expense of smaller towns emptying. Meaning Eastern Ontario is 1.5 M and relatively unchanged.

Add to to immigration, which is predominantly, 3rd world. Principally poor. How do you expect them to attend????

Tax dollars being sucked up, to get white elephants and the few to benefit!!!!
 


tell me again? where is the 1.5 M coming from?

Eastern Ontario is 1.5 M, plus the near by Quebec regions. But, are you really expecting someone on a cold, or stormy January day... in mid week.. to drive from Hawkesbury to a game.. hit the market, watch the game, stay afterwards... freeze his ass off, or die in a blizzard.

Let them go build their arena and watch a white elephant surface...

we are not Toronto, nor Montreal, nor any other large metro area.
1.1 immediate city, another 100 k within arms length. I was generous at 1.2 M.

We will see how many people are good for $300-$500 a night! and for 50 nights for the team and a further 50 nights for "other".

There are many brilliant and successful developers in this city. If they remotely thought that 1.5 M and $300-$500 was coming, the building would have been downtown years ago.

The bull shit that being pedaled to get tax payer dollars.
But we're paying that now...
 
But we're paying that now...
Cola... it is tax dollars for the privileged few.

The athletes, management, the small wealthy pop., media and politicians.

You are a sports car owner.. You would be okay if 1 lane on the 417, 416....400 series highways was dedicated to 150 KM/hr or higher... What about the remaining 98% of us?

Forget safety, imagine a whole lane blocked off so that 500-1000 cars a day use it and the remaining 100,000 cars must go through the remaining lane(s).

It is insane!!!

We went from "we will get concerts"...NO, we won't..
to now" "well, people want a place to eat and drink and stay"....sure, drop $270 at the game and add another $40-$240. Then go home and buy NO NAME pasta and bread.

The GTA is 8-9 M (and nice weather), GMA is 4-5 M, GVA is 4-5 M (and nice weather). All have corporate bases, so season tickets are corporate. Meaning a guy's night is not $300-$500, but $240 less.

Now you are at $60-$260... So, yea, give him/her things around.

Your friend Malhotra... was he born yesterday? If he remotely thought that the juice was this good, he would have squeezed the fruit eons ago.
 


tell me again? where is the 1.5 M coming from?

Eastern Ontario is 1.5 M, plus the near by Quebec regions. But, are you really expecting someone on a cold, or stormy January day... in mid week.. to drive from Hawkesbury to a game.. hit the market, watch the game, stay afterwards... freeze his ass off, or die in a blizzard.

Let them go build their arena and watch a white elephant surface...

we are not Toronto, nor Montreal, nor any other large metro area.
1.1 immediate city, another 100 k within arms length. I was generous at 1.2 M.

We will see how many people are good for $300-$500 a night! and for 50 nights for the team and a further 50 nights for "other".

There are many brilliant and successful developers in this city. If they remotely thought that 1.5 M and $300-$500 was coming, the building would have been downtown years ago.

The bull shit that being pedaled to get tax payer dollars.
Even ignoring Carleton Place, Arnprior, Kemptville, Richland etc.. it’s still 1.4M in Ottawa/Gatineau city limits.

Spending 200-300 pp for a night out isn’t bad.
 


tell me again? where is the 1.5 M coming from?

Eastern Ontario is 1.5 M, plus the near by Quebec regions. But, are you really expecting someone on a cold, or stormy January day... in mid week.. to drive from Hawkesbury to a game.. hit the market, watch the game, stay afterwards... freeze his ass off, or die in a blizzard.

Let them go build their arena and watch a white elephant surface...

we are not Toronto, nor Montreal, nor any other large metro area.
1.1 immediate city, another 100 k within arms length. I was generous at 1.2 M.

We will see how many people are good for $300-$500 a night! and for 50 nights for the team and a further 50 nights for "other".

There are many brilliant and successful developers in this city. If they remotely thought that 1.5 M and $300-$500 was coming, the building would have been downtown years ago.

The bull shit that being pedaled to get tax payer dollars.
Just so we're clear here, he said Ottawa CMA (because you said Ottawa and the immediate environs), you linked the Census subdivision which is just city of Ottawa proper.

Census CMA are populations centers comprised adjacent socially and economically integrated municipalities( subdivisions), here's the Census CMA data for Ottawa


The CMA of Ottawa includes about two dozen subdivisions, Ottawa, Gatineau, and Clarence-Rockland being the most populated, and as he correctly pointed out, is about 1.45 mil right now as of the last census, so likely closer to 1.6 now, we haven't been at 1.2 since 2006.

1736531560356.png
 
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Even ignoring Carleton Place, Arnprior, Kemptville, Richland etc.. it’s still 1.4M in Ottawa/Gatineau city limits.

Spending 200-300 pp for a night out isn’t bad.
that is 200-300 on top of the $250-$270 at the game.

You are at $300-$500. with teh $300 being extreme low end is is most likely $350-$500.

How often???????

A simple meal and drink at the byward market is now around $60-$70 a person. For 2, you are at $120-$140. Make the mistake and go to a high end place and you double that.

Now go to any bar in the market, Elgin, spark.. and drop $10-$12 a beer (after tax and tip)..

We are asking 30,000 people (plus 30,000 dreamers) to fill 19,000 seats and bars/restaurants.. Meanwhile the GTA asks 300,000 and 300,000 dreamers. And Montreal and Vancouver asks 150,000 and 150,000 dreamers.

I guess I don't pay enough taxes. Why not make the media buffet that much better.. you guys deserve it.
 
Just so we're clear here, he said Ottawa CMA (because you said Ottawa and the immediate environs), you linked the Census subdivision which is just city of Ottawa proper.

Census CMA are populations centers comprised adjacent socially and economically integrated municipalities( subdivisions), here's the Census CMA data for Ottawa


The CMA of Ottawa includes about two dozen subdivisions, Ottawa, Gatineau, and Clarence-Rockland being the most populated, and as he correctly pointed out, is about 1.45 mil right now as of the last census, so likely closer to 1.6 now, we haven't been at 1.2 since 2006.

View attachment 959089
we have had this discussion before.

Why do you count areas as far as Hawkesbury, when Francis will opt for Montreal. we count on anyone more than 50 KMs away, when we have hellish winters?

the 1.2 M is generous. from Hawkesbury east wards is not available. Gatineau/Hull residents are far more apt to do a Montréal weekend. Drop their $600-$700 1-3 times a year.

Small towns around here are relatively poor economically. I had strong ties to Cornwall...NO MONEY.. and they too, will opt for Montreal.

Ottawa Senators market is 1.2 M.

Don't get desperate to spend tax payer dollars Mick.... A side walk close by. The city is not fixing anything. Only 20 years old and has to last 40 more. There are 40-50 such damaged spots in RSS. No money to fix them.

and $300-$500 is gone be spent at a rate of 19,000 fans a game (9,500 to account for the double). YEA!!!!!!!!!
 

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we have had this discussion before.

Why do you count areas as far as Hawkesbury, when Francis will opt for Montreal. we count on anyone more than 50 KMs away, when we have hellish winters?

the 1.2 M is generous. from Hawkesbury east wards is not available. Gatineau/Hull residents are far more apt to do a Montréal weekend. Drop their $600-$700 1-3 times a year.

Small towns around here are relatively poor economically. I had strong ties to Cornwall...NO MONEY.. and they too, will opt for Montreal.

Ottawa Senators market is 1.2 M.

Don't get desperate to spend tax payer dollars Mick.... A side walk close by. The city is not fixing anything. Only 20 years old and has to last 40 more. There are 40-50 such damaged spots in RSS. No money to fix them.

and $300-$500 is gone be spent at a rate of 19,000 fans a game (9,500 to account for the double). YEA!!!!!!!!!
Stats Canada determines CMA borders by examining the degree of integration between adjacent communities. They must have a high degree of integration with the core, as measured by commuting flows derived from data on place of work from the previous Census Program.

Even just looking at Ottawa and Gatineau, we were at 1.3 in 2021, so no 1.2 is not generous, it's just flat out wrong.
 
we have had this discussion before.

Why do you count areas as far as Hawkesbury, when Francis will opt for Montreal. we count on anyone more than 50 KMs away, when we have hellish winters?

the 1.2 M is generous. from Hawkesbury east wards is not available. Gatineau/Hull residents are far more apt to do a Montréal weekend. Drop their $600-$700 1-3 times a year.

Small towns around here are relatively poor economically. I had strong ties to Cornwall...NO MONEY.. and they too, will opt for Montreal.

Ottawa Senators market is 1.2 M.

Don't get desperate to spend tax payer dollars Mick.... A side walk close by. The city is not fixing anything. Only 20 years old and has to last 40 more. There are 40-50 such damaged spots in RSS. No money to fix them.

and $300-$500 is gone be spent at a rate of 19,000 fans a game (9,500 to account for the double). YEA!!!!!!!!!
I currently live in the GTA but previously lived in Ottawa for many years. Based on my experience I would much rather travel from Rockland , Gatineau or Perth to a Sens game than anywhere outside the downtown Toronto core to a Leafs game. Traffic, parking and restaurants are much more congested and overall costs are significantly more in Toronto than Ottawa.
 
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Don't get desperate to spend tax payer dollars Mick.... A side walk close by. The city is not fixing anything. Only 20 years old and has to last 40 more. There are 40-50 such damaged spots in RSS. No money to fix them.
Not sure if you have been in Montreal recently but that city is literally falling apart and in much worse shape than Ottawa.
 
I currently live in the GTA but previously lived in Ottawa for many years. Based on my experience I would much rather travel from Rockland , Gatineau or Perth to a Sens game than anywhere outside the downtown Toronto core to a Leafs game. Traffic, parking and restaurants are much more congested and overall costs are significantly more in Toronto than Ottawa.
100% agreed.

When I lived in Hogs Back, it was impressive how I could get to the CTC in 40 minutes on a bus. Currently in Brampton, and I have to drive an hour and a half before puck drop if I don't want to get screwed in traffic to get to a parking spot in DT Toronto. Taking transit is also an hour and a half, unless I drive to a GO station and take the GO train, which is still about an hour.
 
100% agreed.

When I lived in Hogs Back, it was impressive how I could get to the CTC in 40 minutes on a bus. Currently in Brampton, and I have to drive an hour and a half before puck drop if I don't want to get screwed in traffic to get to a parking spot in DT Toronto. Taking transit is also an hour and a half, unless I drive to a GO station and take the GO train, which is still about an hour.
Back in mid November I took my son to see the CMNT (soccer) at BMO stadium. We live in the GTA north of the city and it took 2 hours to get to the game on a Tuesday night going against traffic for 80% of the drive. No accidents, just volume, especially downtown. Traffic in and around Toronto sucks 24-7.
 
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that is 200-300 on top of the $250-$270 at the game.

You are at $300-$500. with teh $300 being extreme low end is is most likely $350-$500.

How often???????

A simple meal and drink at the byward market is now around $60-$70 a person. For 2, you are at $120-$140. Make the mistake and go to a high end place and you double that.

Now go to any bar in the market, Elgin, spark.. and drop $10-$12 a beer (after tax and tip)..

We are asking 30,000 people (plus 30,000 dreamers) to fill 19,000 seats and bars/restaurants.. Meanwhile the GTA asks 300,000 and 300,000 dreamers. And Montreal and Vancouver asks 150,000 and 150,000 dreamers.

I guess I don't pay enough taxes. Why not make the media buffet that much better.. you guys deserve it.
Ticket 100.00 ish
Dinner 75.00
In arena spend 25.00
Drinks after 100.00
 
we have had this discussion before.

Why do you count areas as far as Hawkesbury, when Francis will opt for Montreal. we count on anyone more than 50 KMs away, when we have hellish winters?

the 1.2 M is generous. from Hawkesbury east wards is not available. Gatineau/Hull residents are far more apt to do a Montréal weekend. Drop their $600-$700 1-3 times a year.

Small towns around here are relatively poor economically. I had strong ties to Cornwall...NO MONEY.. and they too, will opt for Montreal.

Ottawa Senators market is 1.2 M.

Don't get desperate to spend tax payer dollars Mick.... A side walk close by. The city is not fixing anything. Only 20 years old and has to last 40 more. There are 40-50 such damaged spots in RSS. No money to fix them.

and $300-$500 is gone be spent at a rate of 19,000 fans a game (9,500 to account for the double). YEA!!!!!!!!!
Like yesterday your numbers are off.
Never heard from you again yesterday after showing you with actual numbers, that the Sens were still in a wild card spot. when you said they weren’t and were cooked, and then even doubled down on it. (That was based on your predictions lol)
Then it was just crickets.
 
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Like yesterday your numbers are off.
Never heard from you again yesterday after showing you with actual numbers, that the Sens were still in a wild card spot. when you said they weren’t and were cooked, and then even doubled down on it. (That was based on your predictions lol)
Then it was just crickets.
Beech or Chicken little likes to pull numbers out of his cornhole. Andlauer isn’t building a 19K rink, he’s talked 17.5K. The NHL is transitioning from a gate driven league to a media rights driven league. It’s weird to be so paranoid
 
I currently live in the GTA but previously lived in Ottawa for many years. Based on my experience I would much rather travel from Rockland , Gatineau or Perth to a Sens game than anywhere outside the downtown Toronto core to a Leafs game. Traffic, parking and restaurants are much more congested and overall costs are significantly more in Toronto than Ottawa.

Yeah but you forget that this is ottawa, and people will complain about everything no matter what.
 
Remember when everyone said they wanted a new arena? The numbers are not that far off with Beech. It is obvious it will be a lot more expensive to watch a game live. It will definitely cater to more businesses and middle-class or above types. Thats why if we start the Valet parking argument again, I am all for it. These types will not take a train to the game. Its not in their DNA.
 
Remember when everyone said they wanted a new arena? The numbers are not that far off with Beech. It is obvious it will be a lot more expensive to watch a game live. It will definitely cater to more businesses and middle-class or above types. Thats why if we start the Valet parking argument again, I am all for it. These types will not take a train to the game. Its not in their DNA.

Middle class? NHL games are already beyond the means of most families in the middle class.

And if you have a central rink location and live in one of the wealthy areas of Ottawa (Rockliffe, Glebe, Westboro), why on earth would you valet park over Uber? Uber will cost you less and you can have a few drinks.
 
Middle class? NHL games are already beyond the means of most families in the middle class.

And if you have a central rink location and live in one of the wealthy areas of Ottawa (Rockliffe, Glebe, Westboro), why on earth would you valet park over Uber? Uber will cost you less and you can have a few drinks.
Middle class is probably a broader group than most realize, especially when there really isn't any consensus on how to define middle class, some economists look at household income, others at individual, some look at after tax, others at before.
 
Middle class is probably a broader group than most realize, especially when there really isn't any consensus on how to define middle class, some economists look at household income, others at individual, some look at after tax, others at before.

Middle class is generally defined as the 40th-60th percentile of households by income. Pre or post-tax doesn't really matter, it'll get you to the same group, since the large majority of middle class households have one income stream—their job(s). And typically when people say "middle class" they mean families.

Live sports (and entertainment in general) have already priced themselves out of the middle class family. I go to quite a few games, and I'd generalize that there are two main groups of people that attend games:

1. Groups of young professionals (i.e. 26-35 years old). Probably don't have kids so have the disposable income to spend (whether on concerts, sports, restaurants, etc).
2. Older people (50+). Higher earning and/or kids have already left the nest.

You don't see a lot of young families of 4 (dad, mom and 2 kids) at games anymore, and I don't think that's going to change.

The new rink, if built, will probably be smaller, more expensive, and cater towards higher income earners (in the lower bowl) and young professionals who want to have a good time (in the upper bowl).

Parking valet options will be important for the wealthy oldies, and accessibility via transit will be huge for the DINKS and SINKS.

But you probably don’t need to worry all that much about the families from Kanata or Orleans who don’t want take the train but also expect to park for less than 20 bucks right outside the arena.

If you're in your 30's or early 40's and have a few kids? Go watch the 67s.
 
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There are people who like the Kanata location and who don't mind the drive or bus ride.

But a downtown arena is going to have more pull. For every fan that might decide to go from 10 games in Kanata to 5 games at LeBreton there's going to be someone from the Glebe, Centretown, Orleans, Vanier, South-End and even some people who live in Kanata but work downtown who will go to more games.

Hell - the immediate area around LeBreton is becoming young and yuppy if you've been down there. All those hipsters in their flannel walking down the street in the fall. Young working professionals with disposable income who will go to games.

Price increases suck but the arena does need to be financially viable and when you can pull in more interest from more people you can increase prices.
 
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Middle class is generally defined as the 40th-60th percentile of households by income. Pre or post-tax doesn't really matter, it'll get you to the same group, since the large majority of middle class households have one income stream—their job(s). And typically when people say "middle class" they mean families.

Live sports (and entertainment in general) have already priced themselves out of the middle class family. I go to quite a few games, and I'd generalize that there are two main groups of people that attend games:

1. Groups of young professionals (i.e. 26-35 years old). Probably don't have kids so have the disposable income to spend (whether on concerts, sports, restaurants, etc).
2. Older people (50+). Higher earning and/or kids have already left the nest.

You don't see a lot of young families of 4 (dad, mom and 2 kids) at games anymore, and I don't think that's going to change. The new rink, if built, will probably be smaller, more expensive, and cater towards higher income earners (in the lower bowl) and young professionals who want to have a good time (in the upper bowl).

If you're in your 30's or early 40's and have a few kids? Go watch the 67s.
I'd love to know where you got "generally defined as" since as far as I can find, there is no general definition,

Having said that,
The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) defines a member of the middle class as anyone who earns between 75 per cent and 200 per cent of median household income after tax.

The Brookings Institution defines middle class as the middle 60 percent of households on the income distribution.

The Pew Research Center defines “middle class” as earning an income between two-thirds and twice the national median income.

The Urban Institute defines the middle class as those whose income is from 250% to 499% of the federal poverty line.

Hell, I even found an article that compared 12 different definitions and how they'd work when applied to the US population

One thing that is consistent though, is far more people consider themselves to be middle class than you'd expect.
 

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