News Article: Lebreton...Interesting...NCC - PART 2

[Tuna99]

These are all good points…. The only negative is that the Trainyards are not convenient for residents of Gatineau, as Lebreton would be, and that seems to be a priority for the Majority owner.

Train yards is in the industrial area of Ottawa, might be good for highway access but it’s in no man’s land and nothing to do

The arena needs to be tied into additional entertainment land the culture of the city and if they think of it similar to a movie theater where you buy a Ticket and a bunch if expensive food and leave after 2 hours ii’ll fall way short of that it could be and it’ll be like the CTC

 

[PlayersLtd]

Lebreton and Bayview do not make sense. Trainyards is the best spot imo. Easy access to the Queensway, lots of parking, LRT station, and VIA rail. On game day you could have a VIA train leave Brockville, pass through Smith Falls, and Barrhaven to the train station in about an hour. Going east you could do the same from Cassleman in about half the time. This would encourage people from outside the city to have an easier and more comfortable commute on game days, no traffic. Could be a perk for season ticket holders and a discounted train ticket for single day tickets.

Sure. Anywhere but Lebreton. Not sure those train cars are going to be full enough post game for VIA to run those routes without a popular park and ride somewhere in Kanata / Nepean but good theory.

Bayview could absolutely work, imo. A light rail station could be integrated and used only for special events, the transitway is right there and vehicle dispersion can happen in almost every direction including two nearby bridges to Gatineau.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Lebreton and Bayview do not make sense. Trainyards is the best spot imo. Easy access to the Queensway, lots of parking, LRT station, and VIA rail. On game day you could have a VIA train leave Brockville, pass through Smith Falls, and Barrhaven to the train station in about an hour. Going east you could do the same from Cassleman in about half the time. This would encourage people from outside the city to have an easier and more comfortable commute on game days, no traffic. Could be a perk for season ticket holders and a discounted train ticket for single day tickets.

Dropping the arena at the train yards would be a disappointment of epic proportions.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Well it’s not the City, developing the land either…. Whomever is tasked with developing the land, at Lebreton, will be dealing primarily with the NCC first, and perhaps the City in a minor role …. They will be building on Federally controlled land, NOT municipal land….. one only has to look at the condo building built a decade ago to see what happens when the NCC is involved….. it looks like North Korea won the design competition

View attachment 907676

I was thinking the same thing. The NCC would use second life use as a primary driver for building form. We would end up with an arena that looks like a museum or conference centre and the process would create tension and headaches between the two parties. In the end I don't think it would be as attractive and purpose built as one would hope.

 

[Micklebot]

I was thinking the same thing. The NCC would use second life use as a primary driver for building form. We would end up with an arena that looks like a museum or conference centre and the process would create tension and headaches between the two parties. In the end I don't think it would be as attractive and purpose built as one would hope.

They didn't seem to do that with the original bids that fell through, why would they start now?

 

[PlayersLtd]

They didn't seem to do that with the original bids that fell through, why would they start now?

Because the bids were purely conceptual and the planners likely had little say at that stage.

 

[Stylizer1]

These are all good points…. The only negative is that the Trainyards are not convenient for residents of Gatineau, as Lebreton would be, and that seems to be a priority for the Majority owner.

Some definite pros to that site, but in terms of game day experience there isn't much if anything there within walking distance which is one of the major drawbacks to the current arena site.

Train yards is in the industrial area of Ottawa, might be good for highway access but it’s in no man’s land and nothing to do

The arena needs to be tied into additional entertainment land the culture of the city and if they think of it similar to a movie theater where you buy a Ticket and a bunch if expensive food and leave after 2 hours ii’ll fall way short of that it could be and it’ll be like the CTC

There are currently plans to build a large amount of residential areas on the vacant land west of the Walmart. The owners of the Trainyards are currently in receivership so those plans probably are not going to happen for a while if ever. The land at the Trainyards is huge and Andlauer could develop much of it and turn into it's own district with Entertainment, housing etc. This is basically what they are doing at Lebreton. Rogers Place in Edmonton was built with none of those things around it.

Sure. Anywhere but Lebreton. Not sure those train cars are going to be full enough post game for VIA to run those routes without a popular park and ride somewhere in Kanata / Nepean but good theory.

Bayview could absolutely work, imo. A light rail station could be integrated and used only for special events, the transitway is right there and vehicle dispersion can happen in almost every direction including two nearby bridges to Gatineau.

This is a way to encourage season ticket holders who live on the outskirts of Kanata to to travel further for games. Having a train that starts from Brockville, to Smith Falls, to Barrhaven, then to the game would be such a convenient way to get people to the Arena. People could park and ride all along that route. People who live that far away are not looking to go out and party afterwards. If a game ends at 9:30pm people could be back in Brockville by just after 11:00pm. I don't know how often you drive around that area during rush hour but getting from Lebreton to the queensway easily takes 30 minutes when in no traffic it takes 5 minutes. Having direct access to the Queensway at the Trainyards would be way faster.

Dropping the arena at the train yards would be a disappointment of epic proportions.

Epic.

 

[Micklebot]

Because the bids were purely conceptual and the planners likely had little say at that stage.

How did they not have say, they built the scoring mechanism for the bids, if they wanted that, they have scored it in bids.

 

[PlayersLtd]

How did they not have say, they built the scoring mechanism for the bids, if they wanted that, they have scored it in bids.

Putting a memorandum of understanding in place based on a few bids was 1% of the work. They reviewed concepts on the merit of need, feasibility and how it would fit into the OCP and yes, a scoring system that covered a range of other things. I'm not downplaying the level of preparedness but getting the rubber to hit the road so to speak is a whole different story. The bid and MOU would have barely scratched the surface on stuff like the lease agreement, roadway design, final impact assessments, shading models, built form, end of life, cost sharing, timing etc...

The list of things that City planners (in this case NCC planners) and risk assessment teams need to comb over, design and negotiate is lengthy and complicated on an average project. One can only imagine that this one is infinitely more clusterhumped with the NCC at the helm. Right off the bat some very complicated roadblocks could be that the plot of land was too small and that cost sharing/scope of work responsibilities haven't been negotiated including that on a massive decontamination effort, or that the NCC's timelines and ability to get work done need to align with those of the Sens.

This is an extremely complex partnership and I will be really surprised (pleasantly) if shovels are in the ground in a timely manner. Because of the tensions and delays I foresee, as well as the fact that the Sens won't own their arena, I hope to god that they decide to walk away and work with a more amenable and experienced partner, the City.

 

[PlayersLtd]

This is a way to encourage season ticket holders who live on the outskirts of Kanata to to travel further for games. Having a train that starts from Brockville, to Smith Falls, to Barrhaven, then to the game would be such a convenient way to get people to the Arena. People could park and ride all along that route. People who live that far away are not looking to go out and party afterwards. If a game ends at 9:30pm people could be back in Brockville by just after 11:00pm. I don't know how often you drive around that area during rush hour but getting from Lebreton to the queensway easily takes 30 minutes when in no traffic it takes 5 minutes. Having direct access to the Queensway at the Trainyards would be way faster.

This is a romantic idea and if it worked yes, it would be cool. For a few people the idea of catching a train to come in and catch a game on a Tuesday night in February would be very appealing.

But choosing a site because of its potential to attract people from relatively remote, low density places like Brockville isn't goign to make it past the first focus group when you consider all the other populations you could tap into with the other options on the table.

Wouldn't be my first choice but yeah maybe the train yards could go head to head with Bayview, Tunney's or a downtown arena. But if so I doubt the potential for attracting rural season ticket holders by train is going to have much to do with it.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

Don't like Trainyards. Just a little too "hop off at stop 32". not enticing. Besides, I think the development opportunities are better for hotels and attractions downtown.

Let someone build condos and townhouses at Train Yards.

 

[Stylizer1]

This is a romantic idea and if it worked yes, it would be cool. For a few people the idea of catching a train to come in and catch a game on a Tuesday night in February would be very appealing.

But choosing a site because of its potential to attract people from relatively remote, low density places like Brockville isn't goign to make it past the first focus group when you consider all the other populations you could tap into with the other options on the table.

Wouldn't be my first choice but yeah maybe the train yards could go head to head with Bayview, Tunney's or a downtown arena. But if so I doubt the potential for attracting rural season ticket holders by train is going to have much to do with it.

Well obviously the majority of tickets would come from within the city but if the argument is that at Bayview/Lebreton is on the transit way and it can disperse people in every direction after the game then Trainyards does that too but way more efficiently. The only negative would be it would be as close to Gatineau but at least it would be way closer than have to go out to Kanata now.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Well obviously the majority of tickets would come from within the city but if the argument is that at Bayview/Lebreton is on the transit way and it can disperse people in every direction after the game then Trainyards does that too but way more efficiently. The only negative would be it would be as close to Gatineau but at least it would be way closer than have to go out to Kanata now.

There's no question that the Trainyards have solid traffic dispersal characteristics compared to other options we know of. But that's assuming the Province will work with the City and team for improved ramps and overpasses etc...

Sure would suck if we got hung up on the cost of an on ramp again...

(Yes, same issue applies to access to the Parkway from Bayview or Tunneys seeing as its NCC land although cost would be considerably lower and design more straight forward).

 

[Micklebot]

Putting a memorandum of understanding in place based on a few bids was 1% of the work. They reviewed concepts on the merit of need, feasibility and how it would fit into the OCP and yes, a scoring system that covered a range of other things. I'm not downplaying the level of preparedness but getting the rubber to hit the road so to speak is a whole different story. The bid and MOU would have barely scratched the surface on stuff like the lease agreement, roadway design, final impact assessments, shading models, built form, end of life, cost sharing, timing etc...

The list of things that City planners (in this case NCC planners) and risk assessment teams need to comb over, design and negotiate is lengthy and complicated on an average project. One can only imagine that this one is infinitely more clusterhumped with the NCC at the helm. Right off the bat some very complicated roadblocks could be that the plot of land was too small and that cost sharing/scope of work responsibilities haven't been negotiated including that on a massive decontamination effort, or that the NCC's timelines and ability to get work done need to align with those of the Sens.

This is an extremely complex partnership and I will be really surprised (pleasantly) if shovels are in the ground in a timely manner. Because of the tensions and delays I foresee, as well as the fact that the Sens won't own their arena, I hope to god that they decide to walk away and work with a more amenable and experienced partner, the City.

This is all moving goalposts, you suggested end off use would be a primary driver, when would you launch and RFP and not score something you want to be a primary driver? Its absurd.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

Well it’s not the City, developing the land either…. Whomever is tasked with developing the land, at Lebreton, will be dealing primarily with the NCC first, and perhaps the City in a minor role …. They will be building on Federally controlled land, NOT municipal land….. one only has to look at the condo building built a decade ago to see what happens when the NCC is involved….. it looks like North Korea won the design competition

View attachment 907676

LOL this was my former residence. In fact, my old balcony is in this photo. The units inside were nice and the view of the Ottawa River was gorgeous.

 

[Relapsing]

Dropping the arena at the train yards would be a disappointment of epic proportions.

Building an arena anywhere but downtown would be a disappointment of epic proportions.

 

[Cosmix]

I was thinking the same thing. The NCC would use second life use as a primary driver for building form. We would end up with an arena that looks like a museum or conference centre and the process would create tension and headaches between the two parties. In the end I don't think it would be as attractive and purpose built as one would hope.

Looking like a "museum or concert centre" would be much better than the oil can we lovingly call the hockey arena now. I liked the design concept Melnyk et al came up with for Lebreton; lots of light and glass..

 

[Cosmix]

For me, Trainyards isn't appealing. To be honest, none of the locations are "ideal" for me.

The main reason is that none of the proposed areas have proper "organic" entertainment. Any of these new sites are going to be antiseptic chain type locations. I've mentioned before, my preference would be the ability to choose live music, a dive bar, a fancy bar, whatever - I just want to fall out the front door of the rink and waltz into one of those place to celebrate or down my sorrows. Not looking forward to some roadhouse or Boston Pizza. Even a short ride on the train will tend to take away some of the momentum after a game.

I will not get my dream of a true downtown location. C'est la vie.

You could tear down the Parliament Buildings and construct an arena there. Nobody would miss it!

 

[PlayersLtd]

This is all moving goalposts, you suggested end off use would be a primary driver, when would you launch and RFP and not score something you want to be a primary driver? Its absurd.

The design hasn't been touched. If you think it is going to look anything like the renderings you're mistaken. So when the design and engineering start being fleshed out, the NCC will need to consider what becomes of that proposed behemoth in 30 years or whenever the lease expires (or heaven's forbid, the team is relocated) and you can bet a huge factor is going to be what it's next life is considering how risk averse they are.

Maybe some of that has been done theoretically but the devil is in the details. I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm outlining how complicated things are going to get in this partnership.

 

[Masked]

You could tear down the Parliament Buildings and construct an arena there. Nobody would miss it!

Especially if the house was sitting at the time!