Post-Game Talk: Leafs win! Leafs 4 CBJ 2

[Stephen]

You can talk about anything you want. Holl's wide turn leads to a big gap. McCabe's over committed low and can't support to cut off on the 1on2.

All of that leads to a low percentage chance that shouldn't go in.

As far as blame goes, if a defenseman's big issue is a bad angle strong side shot the goalie has ample time to set for with no passing options, youre probably doing alright.

Why would McCabe deserve any blame for a LW rush against an out of position RD who was basically scrambling at the opposing blue line on the wide loop? There was no pass on the emerging 2 on 1 and McCabe was in position at the top of the crease when Woll let in the goal.

These things happen, but that's being asleep at the wheel and regular mental lapses and poor details. Not uncharacteristic of Holl.

 

[Gallagbi]

Why would McCabe deserve any blame for a LW rush against an out of position RD who was basically scrambling at the opposing blue line on the wide loop? There was no pass on the emerging 2 on 1 and McCabe was in position at the top of the crease when Woll let in the goal.

McCabe as the weak side D is to drop back and stagger (he staggers forward). It provides insulation and reduces risk in the situation as you'll generally have your strong side pressing. If CLB forward is faster that turns from a bad angle shot to a clear cut breakaway and McCabes positioning can take that away.

All 3 of these guys played a role in the goal with mispositioning. I put most on Woll but Holl turns wide and McCabe doesnt insulate which is a basic defensive position in that situation. Both D take too much ice and dont take a proper gap, so they're chasing.

 

[notDatsyuk]

McCabe as the weak side D is to drop back and stagger (he staggers forward). It provides insulation and reduces risk in the situation as you'll generally have your strong side pressing. If CLB forward is faster that turns from a bad angle shot to a clear cut breakaway and McCabes positioning can take that away.

All 3 of these guys played a role in the goal with mispositioning. I put most on Woll but Holl turns wide and McCabe doesnt insulate which is a basic defensive position in that situation.

I'm just a little surprised nobody's blamed either Willy or JT yet.

 

[Lightsol]

These things happen, but that's being asleep at the wheel and regular mental lapses and poor details. Not uncharacteristic of Holl.

IMHO, Holl is one of a handful of D-men on this roster who should be told to NEVER pinch, EVER. He simply doesn't have the footspeed for it.

 

[Gallagbi]

IMHO, Holl is one of a handful of D-men on this roster who should be told to NEVER pinch, EVER. He simply doesn't have the footspeed for it.

He pinched on our first and third goals. The first was a direct setup for ZAR and the third was to keep a play alive where we scored a second or two later.

Like anything, its more about situational awareness and support. Our slowest D can and should pinch at the right time. This goal against wasnt a bad pinch by him, its a misread of speed losing gap.

 

[Lightsol]

He pinched on our first and third goals. The first was a direct setup for ZAR and the third was to keep a play alive where we scored a second or two later.

My reaction to the first one was literally "Yeah, it worked this time, but Holl really shouldn't be pinching like that." Because for every goal he sets up doing that, he gets caught 10 or 12 times.

 

[Stephen]

IMHO, Holl is one of a handful of D-men on this roster who should be told to NEVER pinch, EVER. He simply doesn't have the footspeed for it.

I think the Leafs run the risk assessment and err on the side of more pinches in higher volume in the hopes they generate more offense than they give up, giving guys like Holl and even Timmins the green light when they should maybe have a yellow light. Often it will work and the puck will be kept alive, yada yada, and when it doesn't work, you get break downs like the CBJ goal. But I think it's generally a more permissible system that enables someone like Dermott to spin o rama out of a zone.

 

[Stephen]

McCabe as the weak side D is to drop back and stagger (he staggers forward). It provides insulation and reduces risk in the situation as you'll generally have your strong side pressing. If CLB forward is faster that turns from a bad angle shot to a clear cut breakaway and McCabes positioning can take that away.

All 3 of these guys played a role in the goal with mispositioning. I put most on Woll but Holl turns wide and McCabe doesnt insulate which is a basic defensive position in that situation. Both D take too much ice and dont take a proper gap, so they're chasing.

It was a pretty quick transition out and Holl was coming on the ice on a line change, so he should have had a better vantage point of the play vs McCabe chasing along on the dump in. Both Kampf and McCabe had the pass option cut off so it was really just Holl scrambling and Woll letting in something he could have stopped.

 

[notbias]

My reaction to the first one was literally "Yeah, it worked this time, but Holl really shouldn't be pinching like that." Because for every goal he sets up doing that, he gets caught 10 or 12 times.

He is literally one of the best D (if not the best) at anticipating the play and coming down to pinch effectively.

Everyone hates Holl for a whole bunch of reasons but has anyone thought that he plays really well positionally and follows the system they have and that is why he is well-liked by the coaching staff?

 

[Dekes For Days]

My reaction to the first one was literally "Yeah, it worked this time, but Holl really shouldn't be pinching like that." Because for every goal he sets up doing that, he gets caught 10 or 12 times.

Except that's not true at all. More accurately, he does it like 50 times perfectly fine, helping set up opportunities and keep pucks alive, and nobody cares, but then as soon as something goes wrong (often because somebody else isn't properly rotating to cover), people desperately searching for any mistake by Holl go "Aha!", give into their confirmation bias, ignore the many other impacting factors towards the goal against, and ignore the same thing happening occasionally to every other defenseman on both sides.

 

[ACC1224]

It was a pretty quick transition out and Holl was coming on the ice on a line change, so he should have had a better vantage point of the play vs McCabe chasing along on the dump in. Both Kampf and McCabe had the pass option cut off so it was really just Holl scrambling and Woll letting in something he could have stopped.

Yeah he played it really poorly, it happens. Weird some are looking for others to blame for it.
Who knew asking a simple question about a play would sound the alarms at the defense league?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Weird some are looking for others to blame for it. Who knew asking a simple question about a play would sound the alarms at the defense league?

You didn't just "ask a simple question about a play". You asked a leading question designed to blame the player you dislike, and then you refused to accept the correct answer about what happened when it was provided to you, because it didn't exclusively blame the player you dislike, culminating in this post above where you make up a defamatory label for the individual who nicely answered your question.

Like most goals, it's not just exclusively one player's fault, and the player you're attempting to blame was not even the primary cause, as the shot given up wasn't even very good. Frankly, it's weird that you have such strong opinions about a play you admit you barely saw.

 

[Gallagbi]

It was a pretty quick transition out and Holl was coming on the ice on a line change, so he should have had a better vantage point of the play vs McCabe chasing along on the dump in. Both Kampf and McCabe had the pass option cut off so it was really just Holl scrambling and Woll letting in something he could have stopped.

McCabe is too deep as the weak side D. It doesnt really have anything to do with Holl coming on or having a better vantage point, its also not a catastrophic mistake.

A couple smaller misplays by thay D pair created a weak chance against that shouldn't go in.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yeah he played it really poorly, it happens. Weird some are looking for others to blame for it.
Who knew asking a simple question about a play would sound the alarms at the defense league?

Don't sweat man .. some guys played D and da vast majority on here never played and don't have da slightest idea what they are saying as they have never been in those situations themselves .. I asked one of my sons who plays D in todays hockey in A and his response was same as mine .. simple play D should come to blue line stop on a dime .. recognize winger on wall, recognize winger has huge speed and then react to wall immediately when puck comes up slowly along wall to fast winger .. given his partner was playing too deep himself it was an easy read to back up and play da 1 on 1 (no pinch as no support) .. this occurs and play is dead period .. but bottom line Holl cost us a goal against and created a goal for in same game .. da difference and issue at stake is in playoffs against better teams thy will take advantage of a slow D knowing his tendencies

 

[Stephen]

Yeah he played it really poorly, it happens. Weird some are looking for others to blame for it.
Who knew asking a simple question about a play would sound the alarms at the defense league?

At this point we don’t exactly need the Zapruder film to determine the quality of Holl’s defensive detail. We know his flaws.

 

[therealkoho]

I'm just a little surprised nobody's blamed either Willy or JT yet.

It's about basic defensive hockey coached at the competitive level

Holl was just coming on replacing Brodie, I think Holl had identified the BJ player coming up through the middle as being the key threat for one of those flips through to the Leafs blueline and he was positioned to give chase, but Robinson also saw this and as he had no forward pursuing him, he decided to haul ass, this caught Holl flatfooted.

Sometime you reach a fork in the road, and it's a 50/50 whether choosing right over left is the right thing to do.

That said even mighty young Joe said he should've had it. It was a great gesture on his part to say so, not to absolve anybody of fault but to shoulder the responsibility of misplaying the shot.

 

[ACC1224]

It's about basic defensive hockey coached at the competitive level

Holl was just coming on replacing Brodie, I think Holl had identified the BJ player coming up through the middle as being the key threat for one of those flips through to the Leafs blueline and he was positioned to give chase, but Robinson also saw this and as he had no forward pursuing him, he decided to haul ass, this caught Holl flatfooted.

Sometime you reach a fork in the road, and it's a 50/50 whether choosing right over left is the right thing to do.

That said even mighty young Joe said he should've had it. It was a great gesture on his part to say so, not to absolve anybody of fault but to shoulder the responsibility of misplaying the shot.

Yep I think that's all anyone has ever said, Holl butchered it and the Goalie should have made the save.

For a 2nd goal that no one seems to care about in an easy win it sure got some knickers twisted.

 

[therealkoho]

Yep I think that's all anyone has ever said, Holl butchered it and the Goalie should have made the save.

For a 2nd goal that no one seems to care about in an easy win it sure got some knickers twisted.

For me it's all the bs that's spewed about Holl, all the false narratives, from guys who largely have probably never got into a competitive game in organized hockey and who'd need a diaper change after the first slam into the boards on a puck retrieval.

The guy has made it to the NHL, he skates at the NHL level, he takes a beating never complains and never sits out because of bandaids unless those bandaids are effecting his game

They ain't all Cale Makar, but as a 4/5/6 the guy can give the team solid if unspectacular minutes.

 

[ACC1224]

For me it's all the bs that's spewed about Holl, all the false narratives, from guys who largely have probably never got into a competitive game in organized hockey and who'd need a diaper change after the first slam into the boards on a puck retrieval.

The guy has made it to the NHL, he skates at the NHL level, he takes a beating never complains and never sits out because of bandaids unless those bandaids are effecting his game

They ain't all Cale Makar, but as a 4/5/6 the guy can give the team solid if unspectacular minutes.

I just comment on what I see. I'll leave the narratives to others.

 

[Gallagbi]

For a 2nd goal that no one seems to care about in an easy win it sure got some knickers twisted.

Interesting comment to be upst about discussing the game in the PGT.

You asked a question and got an answer.

 

[Dekes For Days]

For a 2nd goal that no one seems to care about in an easy win it sure got some knickers twisted.

Yeah, yours. You brought it up, you made multiple posts on the subject, you asked a question about it, and then you lashed out at the people that responded when the answer to the question you asked wasn't what you wanted.

 

[Stephen]

I just comment on what I see. I'll leave the narratives to others.

Justin Holl belongs to the lineage of classic klutz defensemen who come with under utilized ideal size, not quite as mean as you want and let’s say inconsistent decision making under pressure.

Cory Cross, Aki Berg, Andy Wozniewski, Mike Komisarek (Toronto version) Martin Marincin. They’re all kind of similar in style though some are more in the 5 range, some in the 7.

Usually, no one notices these guys when they do their job properly and when they stand out it’s for a bad reason aka when a goal is scored on their watch.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's about basic defensive hockey coached at the competitive level

Holl was just coming on replacing Brodie, I think Holl had identified the BJ player coming up through the middle as being the key threat for one of those flips through to the Leafs blueline and he was positioned to give chase, but Robinson also saw this and as he had no forward pursuing him, he decided to haul ass, this caught Holl flatfooted.

Sometime you reach a fork in the road, and it's a 50/50 whether choosing right over left is the right thing to do.

That said even mighty young Joe said he should've had it. It was a great gesture on his part to say so, not to absolve anybody of fault but to shoulder the responsibility of misplaying the shot.

Absolutely. I've been playing defence for over sixty years and coached it for about twenty. If your positioning is just right you can often stop a much faster opponent, but it takes just a split second to lose any advantage.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Sorry wrong thread

 

[Auston Escobar]

The paying customers would be extremely unhappy in that event.

You’ve got me there, player/game management has the NBA’s financial situation in the toilet!