GDT: LEAFS @ WILD – DECEMBER 4TH, 2021 (7:00pm EST – SPORTSNET/CBC)

[HockeyVirus]

Not a terrible idea. I'd like to see them get Muzzin some rest as the season moves on as well. No need to burn anyone out. Especially if they can make some moves that lets them carry a 22-man roster.

And esp if they are rolling along in the top of the standings. I know they want the titles and all that, but it doesn't matter either. Rest these guys a bit middle of the season then the Olympic break happens. Hopefully they all come back rested and healthy and can then play the meaningful games down the stretch.

First 2/3 of the season doesn't matter at this point.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

Since Holl came back in the lineup 11gms ago the Leafs are 1st in GAA and 1st in xGAA. Literally the best defense in hockey by any measure.

Also 1st in GAA at 5th in xGAA at 5v5.

With of course the muzz-holl pair doing the heaviest defensive lifting at all strengths.

Yup, we have an incredible d corps and this is the most dialled in defensively the team as a whole has played since I have watched. As impressive as Jack has been in net for us, we are also making his life very east. That's why it's frustrating when everytime I see one of our D men make a mistake, it's almost always Holl. A lot of us see this too, he hasn't been getting rave reviews in some of the report card articles I've been reading. What if Muzzin Liljegren was even better, don't you think it's worth a try?

When you watch Holl play, do you think he looks good?

 

[zeke]

Yup, we have an incredible d corps and this is the most dialled in defensively the team as a whole has played since I have watched. As impressive as Jack has been in net for us, we are also making his life very east. That's why it's frustrating when everytime I see one of our D men make a mistake, it's almost always Holl. A lot of us see this too, he hasn't been getting rave reviews in some of the report card articles I've been reading. What if Muzzin Liljegren was even better, don't you think it's worth a try?

When you watch Holl play, do you think he looks good?

I do think he does a lot of good things that people don't seem to notice, and does it all against the top matchups, yeah.

I'm not super eager to put Lilly on our top matchup pairing either as a rookie, tbh.

 

[Notsince67]

Not a terrible idea. I'd like to see them get Muzzin some rest as the season moves on as well. No need to burn anyone out. Especially if they can make some moves that lets them carry a 22-man roster.

They could but a president's trophy isnt a small thing. Only 15 team have ever won one...I know..cue in the only the cup matters crowd...
I want them all

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Hope they can break the 5 game “curse” and win their 6th straight tonight. Minny is going to be a great test regardless.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Delete

 

[Maplebeasts]

I do think he does a lot of good things that people don't seem to notice, and does it all against the top matchups, yeah.

I'm not super eager to put Lilly on our top matchup pairing either as a rookie, tbh.

I get the skepticism about putting Lilly on the matchup pairing. He's not proven himself against that level of competition yet. He absolutely should not be sitting though. He's been fantastic in his role and it's just bad development. Holl though has been analytically the worst defenseman on the team any way you want to look at it. Massively negative relative to his team mates in corsi, xgf%, and gf% at 5 on 5. He hasn't been handling the shutdown role well at all.

 

[zeke]

I get the skepticism about putting Lilly on the matchup pairing. He's not proven himself against that level of competition yet. He absolutely should not be sitting though. He's been fantastic in his role and it's just bad development. Holl though has been analytically the worst defenseman on the team any way you want to look at it. Massively negative relative to his team mates in corsi, xgf%, and gf% at 5 on 5. He hasn't been handling the shutdown role well at all.

it's true - but like I pointed out above, there's a huge difference between Holl's first 7gms before getting benched and his last 11gms since going back in. And I always expect the top matchup pairing to have the "worst" analytics, but Muzz-Holl have managed to put up great numbers for the bulk of 3 seasons now as the top matchup pairing that (FOR NOW) I'm willing to chalk up as a blip. If their numbers start to tank again then i'll start reconsidering.

Though if I were to make a change to the top-4, it would probably be to put Muzz-Brodie together as the matchup pairing, and put Lilly with Mo.

 

[ACC1224]

I get the skepticism about putting Lilly on the matchup pairing. He's not proven himself against that level of competition yet. He absolutely should not be sitting though. He's been fantastic in his role and it's just bad development. Holl though has been analytically the worst defenseman on the team any way you want to look at it. Massively negative relative to his team mates in corsi, xgf%, and gf% at 5 on 5. He hasn't been handling the shutdown role well at all.

At this point in the season, would say a 5 game run really affect the team that much?
IMO, the reward far out weighs the risk.

 

[Maplebeasts]

it's true - but like I pointed out above, there's a huge difference between Holl's first 7gms before getting benched and his last 11gms since going back in. And I always expect the top matchup pairing to have the "worst" analytics, but Muzz-Holl have managed to put up great numbers for the bulk of 3 seasons now as the top matchup pairing that (FOR NOW) I'm willing to chalk up as a blip. If their numbers start to tank again then i'll start reconsidering.

Though if I were to make a change to the top-4, it would probably be to put Muzz-Brodie together as the matchup pairing, and put Lilly with Mo.

That would be a fun experiment. Brodie's mobility would be a good help to Muzzin. Would you have Sandin-Holl or Sandin-Dermott on the other pairing?

 

[zeke]

Would you have Sandin-Holl or Sandin-Dermott on the other pairing?

honestly I like them both. i'm really enjoying the rotation and the depth overall this year and have a pretty open mind to let them all prove who deserves to be in come playoffs.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

And esp if they are rolling along in the top of the standings. I know they want the titles and all that, but it doesn't matter either. Rest these guys a bit middle of the season then the Olympic break happens. Hopefully they all come back rested and healthy and can then play the meaningful games down the stretch.

First 2/3 of the season doesn't matter at this point.

points in the first part of the season count just as much as points later in the season. At this point, I hope the Leafs do whatever they can to win the division and avoid Tampa or Florida in round 1

 

[Maplebeasts]

At this point in the season, would say a 5 game run really affect the team that much?
IMO, the reward far out weighs the risk.

I don't disagree. It's a waste to have either him, Sandin or Dermott sit. I would try it personally but it seems like Keefe has other plans.

 

[ACC1224]

That would be a fun experiment. Brodie's mobility would be a good help to Muzzin. Would you have Sandin-Holl or Sandin-Dermott on the other pairing?

I meant Lilly with Muzzin.

I'd go Sandin/Dermott, Holl can leave.

Sorry, just saw your reply to me. Guess that was meant for someone else.

 

[notdoneyet]

Mitch kase rielly and woll all game time decisions

 

[Leafsfan74]

I do think he does a lot of good things that people don't seem to notice, and does it all against the top matchups, yeah.

I'm not super eager to put Lilly on our top matchup pairing either as a rookie, tbh.

I am not a fan of rookie D Men getting deep minutes, especially against tough assignments. They need to be #5 and #6, sheltered minutes IMO. Or Special Teams if pertinent.

If Leafs trade a DMan to make room for some players who are returning to the lineup, I won't know what to say.

Trading any of your D core has to be met with a return that improves said core. Immediately or in the near future. You want to have seven solid, experienced and reliable defenseman come playoffs. Now that we have it, why jeopardize this?

Recall that Gallagher said of heading into game seven last year "we knew we were going to win the series once Muzzin was injured"

 

[Buds17]

I don't disagree. It's a waste to have either him, Sandin or Dermott sit. I would try it personally but it seems like Keefe has other plans.

I think it's a good thing to care about the d-man that's sitting out for any given game. Great to have that kind of depth.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

People kind of need to cool it with the whole Liljegren thing. Team before the player. He has shown that he will be a part of the team into the future. The fact that we actually have 7 quality NHL defensemen right now is a good thing(and yes Holl is a quality NHL defensemen, stop it) and everyone wants to trade out of it just so Liljegren is guaranteed a spot in the lineup. Nobody can convince me that makes any sense at all.

 

[Coachcorner]

WE GANGSTA NO MATTER WHO IS PLAYING!! I mean PLEZAYING SIRE!!! Rielly and Marner are huge of course, so lets see if them gon twerk that thang too for us. Tonight is OURS! FOR LIFE SON!! WE GANGSTA!!!!! Y'all see how WE GET!! ALL DAY WINNING! ALL NIGHT WINNING!! GOING HOME WITH THE PROM QUEEN!

 

[HockeyVirus]

points in the first part of the season count just as much as points later in the season. At this point, I hope the Leafs do whatever they can to win the division and avoid Tampa or Florida in round 1

Of course they do. But what I am saying is the longer the season goes on, the less games left to play, the more appropriate it becomes to push through things. Still like 55 games left to go, they need their health for those games as well.. And beyond.

 

[Martin Skoula]

People kind of need to cool it with the whole Liljegren thing. Team before the player. He has shown that he will be a part of the team into the future. The fact that we actually have 7 quality NHL defensemen right now is a good thing(and yes Holl is a quality NHL defensemen, stop it) and everyone wants to trade out of it just so Liljegren is guaranteed a spot in the lineup. Nobody can convince me that makes any sense at all.

If we can turn Holl into a cheaper #6 RHD + picks that can be flipped to fill a different hole in the lineup it would make sense. But to be comfortable doing that, we need to see if Liljegren can handle those minutes first.

There is no risk to us rotating Sandin/Dermott/Liljegren/Holl in different looks to see what we have, better to find out in December than to gamble on a rookie with 25-30 games under his belt after an injury in the playoffs.

 

[Apex Predator]

I have no issue with Lily sitting 3 games in a row. Get him back in the line up and give him a stretch in a row and let Dermott sit a few in a row. We’re going to need 7 D.

 

[stuart5035]

Since Holl came back in the lineup 11gms ago the Leafs are 1st in GAA and 1st in xGAA. Literally the best defense in hockey by any measure.

Also 1st in GAA at 5th in xGAA at 5v5.

With of course the muzz-holl pair doing the heaviest defensive lifting at all strengths.

agreed
Size does matter, he and Muzzin are our only D that are big and tough. Same for Ritchie, his size and toughness have opened up ice for others, his true worth is not measured in points.

Haven’t we learned (like Dubas) that we need a mix of skill/size?

 

[stuart5035]

Yup, we have an incredible d corps and this is the most dialled in defensively the team as a whole has played since I have watched. As impressive as Jack has been in net for us, we are also making his life very east. That's why it's frustrating when everytime I see one of our D men make a mistake, it's almost always Holl. A lot of us see this too, he hasn't been getting rave reviews in some of the report card articles I've been reading. What if Muzzin Liljegren was even better, don't you think it's worth a try?

When you watch Holl play, do you think he looks good?

he has looked better the last few games.
He is (along with Muzzin) the only D that can go into the corners and win the physical battles. You can’t have a constant diet of the Rielly/Sandin types getting plastered into the boards by large eager opponent forwards.
He can clear the net too

 

[Notsince67]

agreed
Size does matter, he and Muzzin are our only D that are big and tough. Same for Ritchie, his size and toughness have opened up ice for others, his true worth is not measured in points.

Haven’t we learned (like Dubas) that we need a mix of skill/size?

Cale Makar is less than 190 lbs and below 6 feet. It isnt the size of the dog in a fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog.