Confirmed with Link: Leafs sign Roni Hirvonen and Topi Niemelä to ELCs

[JT AM da real deal]

He's talking about Niemela.
Strange because Sandin already has and a permanent NHL defender.

It is very well known amongst all Leaf staff on Marlies including Dubie and Keefe that Sandin main issue is his stride length .. if you went to any Marlie camp and/or practices 3+ years ago it was what team worked on with him all year long .. I went to a few as my kid was back and forth between da rock and team trying to get into marlie roster

 

[saltming]

It wasn’t a bit from behind.

If he was taller, his sternum may not hit the dasher. If he’s heavier, the forechecked doesn’t blow through him so easily and he doesn’t hit the boards as hard.

Unless you're Chara level large a hit like that can injure anyone

 

[ULF_55]

Well i have personally seen him crunch guys in AHL pre COVID and even better I have seen guys try to run him over (much much bigger guys) and his core strength is off da charts good. I think he actually plays a better game when game is slower (to his pace) against weaker slower AHL teams where he can better utilize his smarts and hands skills. Da issue with NHL is game is much faster than his pace (and you could have seen a preview of it against Carolina farm team in AHL playoffs). He went from best player on ice series before to maybe Marlies biggest problem in Charlotte. It was much like da Habs playoff series where he gave up games with his poor pace skating issues. To me da evidence is pretty clear over da past 3 years unless he lengthens his stride he will not make it as an NHL defender.

Against Charlotte he had just turned 19 in March of that year.

So it wouldn't surprise many than a junior player might struggle a bit in the AHL playoffs.

 

[ULF_55]

Hirvonen looks solid.

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[PROUD PAPA]

Hirvonen looks solid.

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I've been really happy with Hirvonen in this tourney. His awareness and versatility are very high and his drive matches up with them nicely. Not sure he has the skills and athleticism to play above a middle 6 role but I can absolutely see a two way 3rd liner who can contribute on the 2nd units.
Not bad for a 59th overall pick.

 

[Dreakmur]

Unless you're Chara level large a hit like that can injure anyone

Even Chara can get injured on a bit like that, but unless you don’t believe in physics, you understand that mass is a huge mitigating factor.

 

[Mess]

This is setting up for a great training camp battle.

5-foot-9 - Roni Hirvonen vs 5-foot-9 - Nicholas Robertson vs 5-foot-9 - Denis Malgin vs 5-foot-9 - Nick Abruzzese

Who has the head's up as we size up this battle to take a roster spot, as they currently seem to running neck to neck?

 

[saltming]

Even Chara can get injured on a bit like that, but unless you don’t believe in physics, you understand that mass is a huge mitigating factor.

Mass leverage dispersal of energy and lots of other physics involved in it, thus the reason saying a short player automatically would get injured vs a bigger player.
That said I will say that strength is what's important not size. Players like Martin st Louis would absorb everything from the biggest defensemen around and not miss a beat.
Hockey strength trumps size

 

[Dreakmur]

Mass leverage dispersal of energy and lots of other physics involved in it, thus the reason saying a short player automatically would get injured vs a bigger player.
That said I will say that strength is what's important not size. Players like Martin st Louis would absorb everything from the biggest defensemen around and not miss a beat.
Hockey strength trumps size

Great speech, but size is a factor in everything you talked about, including and especially strength. Mass is more important than height, but a taller frame can more easily add mass without hindering athleticism.

Small players can certainly excel, but their frame put them at a disadvantage when physicality is a factor. There’s a reason combat sports have weight divisions.

 

[Racer88]

This is setting up for a great training camp battle.

5-foot-9 - Roni Hirvonen vs 5-foot-9 - Nicholas Robertson vs 5-foot-9 - Denis Malgin vs 5-foot-9 - Nick Abruzzese

Who has the head's up as we size up this battle to take a roster spot, as they currently seem to running neck to neck?

Dubas says size doesn’t matter….

 

[saltming]

Great speech, but size is a factor in everything you talked about, including and especially strength. Mass is more important than height, but a taller frame can more easily add mass without hindering athleticism.

Small players can certainly excel, but their frame put them at a disadvantage when physicality is a factor. There’s a reason combat sports have weight divisions.

Size is onky a dactor in size. 6'4" 250lbs vs 6' 250lbs, 6'4" is 30% body fat 6' is 6% body fat. Who has more mass? Who is stronger?
Athleticism is based on extensibility and natural coordination.
Yes size can allow you to hold more mass but it is not close to an absolute rule.
Finally total mass does not determine overall strength. 180lbs can be strongest than someone significantly heavier.

And could mbat sports have weight categories for a few reasons which are mostly political ir insurance and money.
Even boxing was no weight categories for like a hundred years in North America.
Underground fighting does not have weight categories

 

[Mess]

Do Leaf fans know the team acquired these 2 Fins in a 2 for 1 deal at the 2020 draft when they traded back in round #2.

Toronto traded • 2020 second round pick (#44-Tyler Kleven) to Senators for • 2020 second round pick (#58-Roni Hirvonen) • 2020 third round pick (#63-Topi Niemela) on 2020-10-07

Ottawa got big 6-4/215 WJC Dman Tyler Kleven and Leafs got their 2 WJC Finish players with the traded back picks.

So to follow this through to the NHL, it will be interesting to see how this works out.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Do Leaf fans know the team acquired these 2 Fins in a 2 for 1 deal at the 2020 draft when they traded back in round #2.

Toronto traded • 2020 second round pick (#44-Tyler Kleven) to Senators for • 2020 second round pick (#58-Roni Hirvonen) • 2020 third round pick (#63-Topi Niemela) on 2020-10-07

Ottawa got big 6-4/215 WJC Dman Tyler Kleven and Leafs got their 2 WJC Finish players with the traded back picks.

So to follow this through to the NHL, it will be interesting to see how this works out.

So far it's a huge win for the Leafs.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Against Charlotte he had just turned 19 in March of that year.

So it wouldn't surprise many than a junior player might struggle a bit in the AHL playoffs.

Yes agreed but my point was in both earlier series against i think Rochester and Cleveland (which were both tough physical teams) he was by far best player on da ice on either team and carried Marlies to both series victories .. but as soon as game speed moved up to next level against Charlotte all da speed issues showed up clear as day

 

[Dreakmur]

Size is onky a dactor in size. 6'4" 250lbs vs 6' 250lbs, 6'4" is 30% body fat 6' is 6% body fat. Who has more mass? Who is stronger?

Since muscle is more dense than fat, the 6'4" guy likely has more mass, but it would depend on their body shapes.

Who's stronger would also depend on many factors, including the specific test of strength. Sometimes, being taller is an advantage, and sometimes being shorter is an advantage.

In this fantasy situation with two abnormal body types, the shorter guy is likely stronger in more situations.

Athleticism is based on extensibility and natural coordination.

Adding too much weight to your frame is detrimental. Some frames can handle more weight then others.

You're example above would be a good case. With a normal skeletal structure, a 6 foot man weighing 250 lbs is likely going to have large and bulky muscles, which reduce flexibility and range of motion. Carrying extra bulk on your upper body also reduces your skating speed, agility, and explosiveness.

Yes size can allow you to hold more mass but it is not close to an absolute rule.

Nobody ever said these were absolute rules. As a vast generalization, size is an advantage in a contest of strength.

Finally total mass does not determine overall strength. 180lbs can be strongest than someone significantly heavier.

There are exceptional body types that break the generalizations.

And could mbat sports have weight categories for a few reasons which are mostly political ir insurance and money.

They have weight classes because size is an advantage.

Even boxing was no weight categories for like a hundred years in North America.

We also owned black people and didn't let women vote...

 

[Its not your fault]

Size is onky a dactor in size. 6'4" 250lbs vs 6' 250lbs, 6'4" is 30% body fat 6' is 6% body fat. Who has more mass? Who is stronger?
Athleticism is based on extensibility and natural coordination.
Yes size can allow you to hold more mass but it is not close to an absolute rule.
Finally total mass does not determine overall strength. 180lbs can be strongest than someone significantly heavier.

And could mbat sports have weight categories for a few reasons which are mostly political ir insurance and money.
Even boxing was no weight categories for like a hundred years in North America.
Underground fighting does not have weight categories

Example: Farm Boys vs City Boys.

 

[saltming]

Since muscle is more dense than fat, the 6'4" guy likely has more mass, but it would depend on their body shapes.

Who's stronger would also depend on many factors, including the specific test of strength. Sometimes, being taller is an advantage, and sometimes being shorter is an advantage.

In this fantasy situation with two abnormal body types, the shorter guy is likely stronger in more situations.



Adding too much weight to your frame is detrimental. Some frames can handle more weight then others.

You're example above would be a good case. With a normal skeletal structure, a 6 foot man weighing 250 lbs is likely going to have large and bulky muscles, which reduce flexibility and range of motion. Carrying extra bulk on your upper body also reduces your skating speed, agility, and explosiveness.



Nobody ever said these were absolute rules. As a vast generalization, size is an advantage in a contest of strength.



There are exceptional body types that break the generalizations.



They have weight classes because size is an advantage.



We also owned black people and didn't let women vote...

Well your last reply has nothing to do with what we are talking about but it seems then we agree on the other topics.
Again my original post was against the idea that if Girard was bigger he wouldn't have been hurt by the hit. His size had very little to do with it

Example: Farm Boys vs City Boys.

Good one

 

[Its not your fault]

Great speech, but size is a factor in everything you talked about, including and especially strength. Mass is more important than height, but a taller frame can more easily add mass without hindering athleticism.

Small players can certainly excel, but their frame put them at a disadvantage when physicality is a factor. There’s a reason combat sports have weight divisions.

Yah the heavyweight are to slow and someone would cave a head in just as fast as someone that's larger. Bells don't even have to get rocked anymore to get taken out from a concussion.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well your last reply has nothing to do with what we are talking about but it seems then we agree on the other topics.

You mentioned boxing rules from 100 years ago. That’s hardly the society I’d be looking at for support of my opinion.

Again my original post was against the idea that if Girard was bigger he wouldn't have been hurt by the hit. His size had very little to do with it

If Girard was bigger, he would be less likely to be as injured in that hit. More height would have had his chest above the board and impacting the flexible plexi rather than the solid boards. More weight would have provided more resistance to the checking player.

 

[Stephen]

This is setting up for a great training camp battle.

5-foot-9 - Roni Hirvonen vs 5-foot-9 - Nicholas Robertson vs 5-foot-9 - Denis Malgin vs 5-foot-9 - Nick Abruzzese

Who has the head's up as we size up this battle to take a roster spot, as they currently seem to running neck to neck?

This is my pet peeve with the way the developmental system has been stocked. I don't mind any 5'9" prospect in a talent pool collection, but it creates a mismatch between the Big Club and reinforcements coming up, and do the two ends of the organization marry up to make us a more serious contender year after year?

Going into big elimination games, I basically need my unique, high end, top of roster talent to play bigger and more confident under the toughest pressure moments. I need guys like William Nylander and Mitch Marner to feel like they are 6'3" and feel confident and safe against the likes of of Weber, Chara, Hedman, Jones and other redwood mutant defensemen.

I think the best way to support them is to have capable bigger players who can create an environment for them to thrive, be able to play the game but also give them physical bodyguarding, creating space, police chippy moments.

I feel less comfortable when our young kids coming up are going to be auditioning for those types of roles, but don't have the physical tools. I also feel less comfortable thinking that those players will be going into their playoff trial by fire and be smaller than the higher in the lineup skill guys.

 

[Mess]

This is my pet peeve with the way the developmental system has been stocked. I don't mind any 5'9" prospect in a talent pool collection, but it creates a mismatch between the Big Club and reinforcements coming up, and do the two ends of the organization marry up to make us a more serious contender year after year?

Going into big elimination games, I basically need my unique, high end, top of roster talent to play bigger and more confident under the toughest pressure moments. I need guys like William Nylander and Mitch Marner to feel like they are 6'3" and feel confident and safe against the likes of of Weber, Chara, Hedman, Jones and other redwood mutant defensemen.

I think the best way to support them is to have capable bigger players who can create an environment for them to thrive, be able to play the game but also give them physical bodyguarding, creating space, police chippy moments.

I feel less comfortable when our young kids coming up are going to be auditioning for those types of roles, but don't have the physical tools. I also feel less comfortable thinking that those players will be going into their playoff trial by fire and be smaller than the higher in the lineup skill guys.

Amen Bro, you're preaching to the Choir.

You hit the nail right on the head, because the feeder system not only is suppose to supply NHL talent, its ideally suppose to fill holes, provide niche roles and responsibilities and add something missing to the overall group to make it stronger and overall better and balanced to play the game any style that is needed to win, thus building an effective supporting cast around your core.

When you continue to draft and add similar types and size prospects there is only going to limited room on the parent team, in specific need roles and none of that addressed big, physical, defensive, intimidating etc and the other attributes that would enhance the core group. That is why you run out and sign Wayne Simmonds, Kyle Clifford, Nick Ritchie types which attempt to fill those roles and essentially create even less need on the parent roster other then a skilled player replacement player due to injury out of need,

PS, That is why there is so much expectation and hope and pressure being placed on Matty Knies, because he is the unicorn of the prospect pool and the one player that has the size, strength, willingness and physical ability to come in an add to the group and not need sheltering himself and allow the team to play bigger and create time and space for his teammates. All these smaller skilled players are only going to cannibalize themselves via limited need, that only allow a select few through, and forcing the others to fail in the process.

 

[Tarmore]

Dubas says size doesn’t matter….

I didn't read or hear that. Can you link me to it?

 

[saltming]

You mentioned boxing rules from 100 years ago. That’s hardly the society I’d be looking at for support of my opinion.



If Girard was bigger, he would be less likely to be as injured in that hit. More height would have had his chest above the board and impacting the flexible plexi rather than the solid boards. More weight would have provided more resistance to the checking player.

In fighting weight classes are relatively new. It came with politics of governing bodies and sports. There is a great need for people to have things in nice neat boxes.
Today there is still a world of "underground" fights that carry on the tradition of no weight classes.

If Girard was bigger and he was turning hard by the boards like he was and if he was leaning forward for the puck like he was, the outcome could just as easily been the same.
Again I'm saying he was in a vulnerable position and got crunched and that's the major reason, not size. If he was bigger it could have been worse The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

That said I do understand the logic of your argument but strength trumps size.

 

[Dreakmur]

In fighting weight classes are relatively new. It came with politics of governing bodies and sports. There is a great need for people to have things in nice neat boxes.

Scientific and medical advances played as much a role as a need to make neat categories, which had more to do with gambling than it does human psychology.

Today there is still a world of "underground" fights that carry on the tradition of no weight classes.

Which demonstrates what? Idiots do idiotic things. That’s not really an argument.

Professional combat athletes deliberately cut weight to fight in lower weight classes. Cutting weight makes them weaker for the fight, but they do it anyway. Why? They do that because fighting smaller people is easier.

If Girard was bigger and he was turning hard by the boards like he was and if he was leaning forward for the puck like he was, the outcome could just as easily been the same.

Could have been, but was less likely due to physical factors.

The exact same hit on a heavier player doesn’t move him as forcefully. The exact same hit on a taller player changes the impact point to a less dangerous one.

Again I'm saying he was in a vulnerable position and got crunched and that's the major reason, not size.

He definitely put himself in a bad spot and that was part of the problem. The other problem was size.

If he was bigger it could have been worse

Anything is possible. If he was bigger, it could have been worse, but it was more likely to be less severe.

The bigger they are the harder they fall.

That’s a saying describing the loss of wealth and power, not size.

Larger people do land harder than small people, which is more than balanced out by them being harder to knock over.

That said I do understand the logic of your argument but strength trumps size.

Strength comes from two places - size and technique. Girard had neither strength, nor technique. That’s why he got blown up.

 

[Racer88]

I didn't read or hear that. Can you link me to it?

You don’t need to read it. It’s obvious by the type of player he drafts or trades for