Leafs ranked 20th by Hockey's Future.

[JKsilverstick*]

Saying that the Kessel trade is worse than say the Neidermeyer trade is essentially saying that Seguin is better than Kessel and Hamilton is better than Neidermeyer.

As we all know, that claim is ridiculous.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

And yet the comentary specifically mentions the lack of goaltending depth for DET. If anything this just proves that teams like Detroit are given preferential prospect values.

I beg you please make an argument why Smith is a better prospect than Rielly.

Please. I will totally admit fault if you can do that.

Hell...

I WILL QUIT DEFENDING BURKE IF YOU CAN MAKE A SOLID ARGUMENT FOR SMITH BEING A BETTER PROSPECT THAN RIELLY.

Because my only issues are that it appears that certain teams get preferential rankings, and most hockey people agree Rielly is an awesome talent but Toronto gets no respect.

That and the criteria is bogus. Teams get rewarded for having prospects that aren't good enough to make the NHL at a young age. Oh wait Kadri is a scrub. LEafs Prospects don't get that. But Nyquist is a fraking all-star in the making. See... makes no sense.

I would like you to actually imagine this for a moment.

Pretend that both HF and the Hockey News (which is created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) both ranked the leafs as top 3 in the league for prospects.
BOTH of them.

You with me?

Now imagine that myself and Hockeyfans and others (people who have barely watched the other prospects) came in here and started claiming that "we know better" than all those scouts and people that have actually watched all those other prospects play.
Seriously... just try and imagine what you would think of us.

You would think that we sound pretty damn stupid, right?

Now, turn that all around, and think about what the rational leaf fans think about you right now. It's going to be pretty similar to the fantastical situation I created above.

I would hope that insights into your personal character flaws will create self reflection so that you can outgrow such immature tendencies... that's actually what I hope...
but it's far more likely that you'll just respond by saying something like "our goalies are better than Detroits (even though I've never seen or heard of Detroits goalies) so that proves that everything HF ever wrote is incorrect."

All I can really do is try and help people like you... but... at the end of the day, some people just have a tremendously difficult time with objectivity.

Also, I just looked at hf prospect rankings and they give Reilly an 8.5, and Smith an 8.0
But because Smith is older with more experience, he was given a B prob. of success, compared to 18 year old Reilly with a C.
Makes perfect sense to me...

 

[Bomber0104]

Saying that the Kessel trade is worse than say the Neidermeyer trade is essentially saying that Seguin is better than Kessel and Hamilton is better than Neidermeyer.

As we all know, that claims are ridiculous.

No ones said that. We have to wait until the books close on the trade to find out just how good or bad the move is.

It's a wait-and-see. Years away still.

So far, the results have been incredibly poor but there's still more to come. Hamilton hasn't played a game yet, Kessel is almost 26 and an upcoming UFA, and Seguin is only 20.

 

[charliolemieux]

First things first you cant trade Kessel now because there isnt a CBA and once there is the team has to honor his NMC as per CAPGEEK. Kessel I can almost definitely say will NOT BE TRADED IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS

I am not making a case for Kessel as the worst trade, if you have been paying even the slightest bit of attention to the content of my posts you would have realized that my point is that we CANNOT CONCLUDE ANYTHING ABOUT THE TRADE RIGHT NOW SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION.

THE CASE IS STILL ON-GOING!

The trade could get better, it could get worse, or it could be a wash. We don't know.

So far the Leafs have been trash since acquiring Kessel. Literally trash. And we gave up a metric ton of prospects. Now the Leafs have a trash NHL roster and below average prospects as perceived by scouts and publishers.

So far the Bruins have been contenders since ditching Kessel. They have won the Stanley Cup. And they have a metric ton of prospects to show for trading Kessel.

That's all we know. We don't know what's going to happen from here on in.

The Rask trade is still an on-going too. Most Leafs fans fear Rask will be a legitimate NHL starter and a good one too. He could. Or he could not. If he doesn't, however unlikely, all of a sudden we didn't get hosed in the Raycroft traded. And we got close to the playoffs on the back of a goalie who won a RECORD 37 games in exchange for a backup goalie. Big deal. Ill admit thats unlikely to happen but the point is WE CANT ABSOLUTELY CONCLUDE ANYTHING, LET ALONE COMPARE IT TO TRADES THAT ARE CLOSED OR ON-GOING WHEN THIS ONE IS ABSOLUTELY IN ITS INFANCY.

Theres all sorts of variables at play and we wont know for years still once more information is accounted for.



This will be the fifth time Ive explained this to you and it still hasnt sunk in. that or your just pulling my leg and are ignoring the content and just ignorantly falling back on your fallacies.

Dear lord are you not familiar with the other trades?

They are so bad. I repeat SO BAD, that the KEssel deal will never be equal.

 

[7even]

I would like you to actually imagine this for a moment.

Pretend that both HF and the Hockey News (which is created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) both ranked the leafs as top 3 in the league for prospects.
BOTH of them.

You with me?

Now imagine that myself and Hockeyfans and others (people who have barely watched the other prospects) came in here and started claiming that "we know better" than all those scouts and people that have actually watched all those other prospects play.
Seriously... just try and imagine what you would think of us.

You would think that we sound pretty damn stupid, right?

Now, turn that all around, and think about what the rational leaf fans think about you right now. It's going to be pretty similar to the fantastical situation I created above.

I would hope that insights into your personal character flaws will create self reflection so that you can outgrow such immature tendencies... that's actually what I hope...
but it's far more likely that you'll just respond by saying something like "our goalies are better than Detroits (even though I've never seen or heard of Detroits goalies) so that proves that everything HF ever wrote is incorrect."

All I can really do is try and help people like you... but... at the end of the day, some people just have a tremendously difficult time with objectivity.

Also, I just looked at hf prospect rankings and they give Reilly an 8.5, and Smith an 8.0
But because Smith is older with more experience, he was given a B prob. of success, compared to 18 year old Reilly with a C.
Makes perfect sense to me...

Counterpoint:

Nashville has a strength in goaltending
Magnus Hellberg - 7.0 D
Marek Mazanec - 7.0 D
Jeremy Smith - 6.5 C
Chet Pickard - 6.5 D

Toronto has a weakness in top end goaltending
Mark Owuya - 7.0 C
Garrett Sparks - 7.0 D
Jussi Rynnas - 7.0 D
Ben Scrivens - 6.5 B

Similar, but based on those rankings one could definitely give Toronto an edge in goaltending, yet for us it's a weakness but Nashville has it as a strength.

Yup not contrived or arbitrary at all these guys sure know what's up.

 

[Bomber0104]

They are so bad. I repeat SO BAD, that the KEssel deal will never be equal.

Again, you can keep repeating it BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

You can't tell the future.

Please acknowledge this.


Notice how you are ignoring my entire post and just reverting back to this fallacious AND INVALID point. I repeat SO FALLACIOUS AND SO INVALID!

 

[JKsilverstick*]

No ones said that. We have to wait until the books close on the trade to find out just how good or bad the move is.

It's a wait-and-see. Years away still.

So far, the results have been incredibly poor but there's still more to come. Hamilton hasn't played a game yet, Kessel is almost 26 and an upcoming UFA, and Seguin is only 20.

Alright, I will rephrase that.

Saying that the Kessel trade is worse than the Neidermayer trade is like saying Seguin will be better than Kessel over his career and that Hamilton will be better than Neidermayer over their respective careers.

As we all know, that claim is ridiculous.

 

[charliolemieux]

I would like you to actually imagine this for a moment.

Pretend that both HF and the Hockey News (which is created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) both ranked the leafs as top 3 in the league for prospects.
BOTH of them.

You with me?

Now imagine that myself and Hockeyfans and others (people who have barely watched the other prospects) came in here and started claiming that "we know better" than all those scouts and people that have actually watched all those other prospects play.
Seriously... just try and imagine what you would think of us.

You would think that we sound pretty damn stupid, right?

Now, turn that all around, and think about what the rational leaf fans think about you right now. It's going to be pretty similar to the fantastical situation I created above.

I would hope that insights into your personal character flaws will create self reflection so that you can outgrow such immature tendencies... that's actually what I hope...
but it's far more likely that you'll just respond by saying something like "our goalies are better than Detroits (even though I've never seen or heard of Detroits goalies) so that proves that everything HF ever wrote is incorrect."

All I can really do is try and help people like you... but... at the end of the day, some people just have a tremendously difficult time with objectivity.

Also, I just looked at hf prospect rankings and they give Reilly an 8.5, and Smith an 8.0
But because Smith is older with more experience, he was given a B prob. of success, compared to 18 year old Reilly with a C.
Makes perfect sense to me...

Seems to me you are reaching to find an excuse as to why the LEafs prospects should be rated so low, while inferior teams are rated higher..


Remember tonight next time when you accuse me of the same, like you have in the past.

 

[Bomber0104]

I would like you to actually imagine this for a moment.

Pretend that both HF and the Hockey News (which is created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) both ranked the leafs as top 3 in the league for prospects.
BOTH of them.

You with me?

Now imagine that myself and Hockeyfans and others (people who have barely watched the other prospects) came in here and started claiming that "we know better" than all those scouts and people that have actually watched all those other prospects play.
Seriously... just try and imagine what you would think of us.

You would think that we sound pretty damn stupid, right?

Now, turn that all around, and think about what the rational leaf fans think about you right now. It's going to be pretty similar to the fantastical situation I created above.

I would hope that insights into your personal character flaws will create self reflection so that you can outgrow such immature tendencies... that's actually what I hope...
but it's far more likely that you'll just respond by saying something like "our goalies are better than Detroits (even though I've never seen or heard of Detroits goalies) so that proves that everything HF ever wrote is incorrect."

All I can really do is try and help people like you... but... at the end of the day, some people just have a tremendously difficult time with objectivity.

Also, I just looked at hf prospect rankings and they give Reilly an 8.5, and Smith an 8.0
But because Smith is older with more experience, he was given a B prob. of success, compared to 18 year old Reilly with a C.
Makes perfect sense to me...

Im tellin u right now....charlo is gonna just ignore every point made and resort to everything everyone refutes.

refute him on one page, he'll ignore it and just say it again....

over.....and over..........and over............and over.

 

[charliolemieux]

Again, you can keep repeating it BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

You can't tell the future.

Please acknowledge this.


Notice how you are ignoring my entire post and just reverting back to this fallacious AND INVALID point. I repeat SO FALLACIOUS AND SO INVALID!

I do know!

There is only one of the 4 trades that is still active and regardless of what happens it will never be as bad as the other three.

LIke I said, Seguin could win the Art Ross and Hamilton win the Norris and the trade wouldn't be as bad.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

UMM no. Nice try.

Right So losing out on Scott Neidermayer for nothing is worse than losing out on Seguin, Hamilton and KNight and getting a 22yr old PPG winger in return?.

Lkie I said it does not matter what Seguin & co. earn during a carreer, the fact we got Kessel instead of NOTHING, trumps everything.

Keep calling Kessel a one dimensional player. And pay attention because I will be asking you if he is a playmaking one dimensional player or goalscoring one dimensional player.

I have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about with Scott Neidermayer and have not been involved in that conversation in any way, shape, or form.

A juvenile form of argumentation is to simply move the goalposts when bested in argument. That's most likely what just happened.
When I give a very well thought out and informed opinion about the Raycroft/Kessel trades, the response was to ignore all dialogue and respond with an off topic red herring with a unscripted agenda of distraction and ambiguity.

Kessels strength is offense.
His weaknesses are poor defense, laziness, being a soft player, and a questionable attitude.
If you want to take his one strength (offense) and claim he's not "one dimensional" because you can split his one strength into two categories (scoring/passing)...
then have fun.
But then we'd get to split all of his weaknesses into different categories... and that would not paint a pretty picture.

 

[charliolemieux]

Im tellin u right now....charlo is gonna just ignore every point made and resort to everything everyone refutes.

refute him on one page, he'll ignore it and just say it again....

over.....and over..........and over............and over.

Hey I'm game for any topic you want to go at.

Just try and bring some decent arguments.

 

[charliolemieux]

I have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about with Scott Neidermayer and have not been involved in that conversation in any way, shape, or form.

A juvenile form of argumentation is to simply move the goalposts when bested in argument. That's most likely what just happened.
When I give a very well thought out and informed opinion about the Raycroft/Kessel trades, the response was to ignore all dialogue and respond with an off topic red herring with a unscripted agenda of distraction and ambiguity.

Kessels strength is offense.
His weaknesses are poor defense, laziness, being a soft player, and a questionable attitude.
If you want to take his one strength (offense) and claim he's not "one dimensional" because you can split his one strength into two categories (scoring/passing)...
then have fun.
But then we'd get to split all of his weaknesses into different categories... and that would not paint a pretty picture.

I'm talking about the Kessel trade not being one of the top 3 worst LEafs trades. What are you talking about?

 

[Bomber0104]

Alright, I will rephrase that.

Saying that the Kessel trade is worse than the Neidermayer trade is like saying Seguin will be better than Kessel over his career and that Hamilton will be better than Neidermayer over their respective careers.

As we all know, that claim is ridiculous.

No not at all ridiculous. If Kessel is here long-term then it will be more even. If he is not, then the trade could easily be worse. Easily, too.

kurvers for niedermayer

seguin hamilton knight for kessel


Since you and I can not tell the future we will have to wait and see. the worst case scenario happened before. it could happen again. kessel left boston for a big contract. he could leave toronto for a big contract.

we dont know though. we just have the results so far to judge and so far the leafs have been a **** team with him here.

 

[charliolemieux]

Counterpoint:



Yup not contrived or arbitrary at all these guys sure know what's up.

That's the line of thinking I'm on.

Thank you Grant for the stats.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Seems to me you are reaching to find an excuse as to why the LEafs prospects should be rated so low, while inferior teams are rated higher..


Remember tonight next time when you accuse me of the same, like you have in the past.

Who to believe?

Charliolemieux on the internet, who "likes" the leafs, has seen some of their prospects play a 'couple' of times, and has probably never seen the vast majority of all other prospects in the league...

Or the HF staff and professional nhl scouts that create the Hockey News rankings who both rank the leafs as utterly mediocre?
Who to believe?

Seroius self reflection moment...
who is more likely being "stubborn" in their opinion?
The person who has HF and the professional scouts at the hockey news on his side?
Or the person that "likes" the leafs, and thus insists that their prospects are great, without having seen any of the other teams prospects.

Who's more likely being stubborn in their opinion?

Chlarioulemioux is being humiliated here and I'm actually starting to feel a little bad for him.
Listen man, why don't you just sleep on it and continue tomorrow?
To be fair, I was probably closed minded and stubborn about the things I "liked" when I was a teenager as well. So i kind of feel a little bad for being so hard on you.

 

[charliolemieux]

No not at all ridiculous. If Kessel is here long-term then it will be more even. If he is not, then the trade could easily be worse. Easily, too.

kurvers for niedermayer

seguin hamilton knight for kessel


Since you and I can not tell the future we will have to wait and see. the worst case scenario happened before. it could happen again. kessel left boston for a big contract. he could leave toronto for a big contract.

we dont know though. we just have the results so far to judge and so far the leafs have been a **** team with him here.

LMAO

Are you really trying to suggest these trades are close to equal?

 

[charliolemieux]

Who to believe?

Charliolemieux on the internet, who "likes" the leafs, has seen some of their prospects play a 'couple' of times, and has probably never seen the vast majority of all other prospects in the league...

Or the HF staff and professional nhl scouts that create the Hockey News rankings who both rank the leafs as utterly mediocre?
Who to believe?

Seroius self reflection moment...
who is more likely being "stubborn" in their opinion?
The person who has HF and the professional scouts at the hockey news on his side?
Or the person that "likes" the leafs, and thus insists that their prospects are great, without having seen any of the other teams prospects.

Who's more likely being stubborn in their opinion?

Chlarioulemioux is being humiliated here and I'm actually starting to feel a little bad for him.
Listen man, why don't you just sleep on it and continue tomorrow?
To be fair, I was probably closed minded and stubborn about the things I "liked" when I was a teenager as well. So i kind of feel a little bad for being so hard on you.

Dude look at the post Grant made that is quoted above. If that isn't proof of a anti LEafs bias then you're out to lunch.

 

[Bomber0104]

I do know!

There is only one of the 4 trades that is still active and regardless of what happens it will never be as bad as the other three.

LIke I said, Seguin could win the Art Ross and Hamilton win the Norris and the trade wouldn't be as bad.

The Rask trade is still active. And Kessel can walk and what do we have to show for it? 2nd last, 9th last, and 5th last. Thats what.

You nor I can tell the future. Admit this please. YOU CAN NOT PREDICT THE FUTURE. Say it with me. I. CAN. NOT. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

Please repeat it until it sinks in.

Now say this: I. CAN. NOT. PREDICT. THE. OUTCOME. OF. THE. KESSEL. TRADE.

Nice and loud and as many times as you need.

Im sorry but no matter what delusion you seem to have going on in your head you do not know the outcome of the trade. Nor does Boston fans. Nor anyone.

Kessel could walk. Seguin could retire next week. Hamilton can grow another 5 inches. We don't know what's going to happen. As such, we can't judge the trade any more than what's already happened. What's happened is that Kessel got added to the Leafs and the Leafs have taken a **** since then. That's all.

You don't know what will happen in the future.

 

[Bomber0104]

LMAO

Are you really trying to suggest these trades are close to equal?

We don't know the outcome of the Kessel trade so Im not concluding anything right now.

It's been decades since the Kurvers trade.

Hamilton hasn't stepped foot in the pro ranks.

And you want to make absolute certainties right now?

Like I asked you before, can you predict the future?

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

I'm talking about the Kessel trade not being one of the top 3 worst LEafs trades. What are you talking about?

When engaging in an adult conversation, never lump various conversations together into one overall story.

I was involved in a conversation with you comparing the Raycroft trade to the Kessel trade. If you talked about Neidermayer with someone else, keep that conversation going with that other person.
These are mostly the sort of lessons that are taught in Kindergarten, but sometimes people need a refresher as they get older.
If you have any other such questions, please feel free to PM me and I could share with you other information that I've gathered over the years.

I can tell (as well as everyone else reading this thread) that you're a little out of your element in this discussion, but you need to try and keep things together and stay focused.

 

[JKsilverstick*]

No not at all ridiculous. If Kessel is here long-term then it will be more even. If he is not, then the trade could easily be worse. Easily, too.

kurvers for niedermayer

seguin hamilton knight for kessel


Since you and I can not tell the future we will have to wait and see. the worst case scenario happened before. it could happen again. kessel left boston for a big contract. he could leave toronto for a big contract.

we dont know though. we just have the results so far to judge and so far the leafs have been a **** team with him here.

Wow, it's almost unbelievable that a human mind cannot understand this simple concept. It's simple math and common sense. It's like going up to some guy and him not understanding water. I'm done trying to explain it to you. I feel like Ashton Kutcher should be jumping out any second. Enjoy your fairly land.

 

[Bomber0104]

Who to believe?

Charliolemieux on the internet, who "likes" the leafs, has seen some of their prospects play a 'couple' of times, and has probably never seen the vast majority of all other prospects in the league...

Or the HF staff and professional nhl scouts that create the Hockey News rankings who both rank the leafs as utterly mediocre?
Who to believe?

Seroius self reflection moment...
who is more likely being "stubborn" in their opinion?
The person who has HF and the professional scouts at the hockey news on his side?
Or the person that "likes" the leafs, and thus insists that their prospects are great, without having seen any of the other teams prospects.

Who's more likely being stubborn in their opinion?

Chlarioulemioux is being humiliated here and I'm actually starting to feel a little bad for him.
Listen man, why don't you just sleep on it and continue tomorrow?
To be fair, I was probably closed minded and stubborn about the things I "liked" when I was a teenager as well. So i kind of feel a little bad for being so hard on you.

Great post but charlo, I think you need to take the wise mans advice.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Dude look at the post Grant made that is quoted above. If that isn't proof of a anti LEafs bias then you're out to lunch.

The hockey news rankings (created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) also ranked the leafs 20th on their last ranking.

I guess they're biased as well?

So you're right, nobody else other than leaf fans can see it, and every one that disagrees is biased or part of a conspiracy.

 

[charliolemieux]

The hockey news rankings (created by consensus of professional nhl scouts) also ranked the leafs 20th on their last ranking.

I guess they're biased as well?

So you're right, nobody else other than leaf fans can see it, and every one that disagrees is biased or part of a conspiracy.

NIce hyperbole.

All it shows is that the LEafs get shafted whil other team get thier ***** kissed.