Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose... Again.

[ToneDog]

A leopard doesn’t change his spots. Keefe will continue to overplay the core players anytime the team is behind, regardless of how poor their play has been, and sit the players who have been playing great. As well, he will hold players like Kampf “accountable” while allowing Marner to shit the bed! Keefe has to go, but even more so, Shanahan needs to go, and this will not happen. The Leafs franchise continues to make a boatload of money, even though they have only won one playoff round with this “vaunted” core. Make no mistake, MLSE

i agree, but to me, it’s Shanahan who needs to make this happen. It’s no secret how he feels about his “core” players, with possibly the exception of Nylander (Keefe is allowed to single him out).

Moving on from the core is admitting he was wrong all the times he said, "we will win with this core". He will die on that hill. Should be as soon as April if they lose in round #1.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Well, I am strictly talking about the Columbus series. Which was his first series in his first season. Only about 40 NHL games due to COVID. You have to give anyone some rope in their first season.

A leopard doesn’t change his spots. Keefe will continue to overplay the core players anytime the team is behind, regardless of how poor their play has been, and sit the players who have been playing great. As well, he will hold players like Kampf “accountable” while allowing Marner to shit the bed! Keefe has to go, but even more so, Shanahan needs to go, and this will not happen. The Leafs franchise continues to make a boatload of money, even though they have only won one playoff round with this “vaunted” core. i don’t expect things to change anytime soon.

His job is to generate revenue for MLSE so he will want Treliving to ice the best possible team come playoff time.

So keep doing what he’s been doing for the past 7 seasons. Well, they did finally win one playoff round, so maybe they will win two this time?

 

[Captain Crunch]

A leopard doesn’t change his spots. Keefe will continue to overplay the core players anytime the team is behind, regardless of how poor their play has been, and sit the players who have been playing great. As well, he will hold players like Kampf “accountable” while allowing Marner to shit the bed! Keefe has to go, but even more so, Shanahan needs to go, and this will not happen. The Leafs franchise continues to make a boatload of money, even though they have only won one playoff round with this “vaunted” core. i don’t expect things to change anytime soon.


So keep doing what he’s been doing for the past 7 seasons. Well, they did finally win one playoff round, so maybe they will win two this time?

Sorry that I somehow put this in twice.

 

[BallardEra]

So keep doing what he’s been doing for the past 7 seasons. Well, they did finally win one playoff round, so maybe they will win two this time?

Who knows.

I was just meaning that the Leafs will not throw away this year like some fans want them to.

They'll be making trades in order to try and win a Cup this season.

 

[Evilhomer]

They'll be making trades in order to try and win a Cup this season.

As they should, because the field is pretty wide open. The fact that they have lost a few games doesn't change their status as a contender. Boston lost three in a row before the holiday break and no one seems to be calling for them to be blown up.

 

[verdi]

There's nothing wrong with the core. Our defence and goalie are the bigger problems.

 

[Strangle]

It’s lunacy that this keeps needing to be repeated over and over again.

NMC doesn’t mean the player won’t or can’t be traded.

All it means is they need to agree to it

 

[kevsh]

The fact that they have lost a few games doesn't change their status as a contender.

I still dispute this.

They've won 1 round in 7 years and it's hard to argue this team is any better than last year's team even before the trade deadline deals (ROR, etc).

And as has been pointed out many times, contenders aren't filling holes at the deadline, outside of an injury replacement, where the Leafs have multiple areas of need and very few assets to send back to fill those needs.

As for the East, they're not likely catching Boston and the Bolts are on their heels, which means they're likely finishing between 2nd and a WC spot. That means the Panthers, Bolts, Bruins or crossing over and getting the Rangers first. And as of today, Woll is the guy that's going to carry them through those teams? Domi/Robertson/Jankrok is enough scoring depth? Their PK? Brodie in the top 4?

Playoff team automatically =/= a contender. And the Leafs right now are just a playoff team. Until MLSE realizes that they're not winning any Cups with such poor cap allocation (four forwards eating half the cap, specifically) they're not going to be anything more.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Who knows.

I was just meaning that the Leafs will not throw away this year like some fans want them to.

They'll be making trades in order to try and win a Cup this season.

I just hope they don’t mortgage the future again. In my opinion, too many holes to fill. Their best bet is to ride out this year, play hardball with Marner, and wait until Tavares’ contract is up.

There's nothing wrong with the core. Our defence and goalie are the bigger problems.

What about improper cap allocation?

 

[Captain Crunch]

As they should, because the field is pretty wide open. The fact that they have lost a few games doesn't change their status as a contender. Boston lost three in a row before the holiday break and no one seems to be calling for them to be blown up.

Every team has their ups and downs. However, Boston has the edge over us in net and on defence, and are also deeper on offence with their 12 forwards. Not to mention a better coach. I just feel we have too many holes to fill in order to be serious Cup contenders.

 

[Scion]

They actually are mutually exclusive because the only way they can sign the big 3 and improve the defence would be if the formers don’t ask for a significant raise.

Can you see that happening? Because I sure as hell can’t. Especially with Pauly boy whispering sweet nothings into his boy’s ear daily about how great he is and how his shit doesn’t stink.

They can literally do both this summer, and in 2025-26 JT's 11M comes off the books opening up even more room.

 

[Scion]

They do go thru this every year and the crap out in the playoffs every year but I was hoping for better after 5 years with this crappy core.
there has been zero improvement over that time. Why have we made them some of the highest paid players in the league ?

You are right, but unless someone can show me a better way to spend that money I'm inclined to pay the core. It's easy to trade 16 and 88 or let them walk as UFA's, but very difficult to do so and improve the team. The type of players that we need to replace them typically don't enter FA, and even if they do there is no guarantee we can sign them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Look, we're not going to agree, but these blinders need to be put away.

A brutal turnover for an ENG, sulking in the neutral zone to completely abandon your position only to lead to a lazy backcheck you give up on isn't okay. These aren't "minor mistakes" these are major gaffes leading to critical GA from a top player who doesn't look the part recently.

The breakdown, especially SH, shows a lack of understanding our systems and Marners role in the play. Nothing more needs to be said on it.

I understand our system and Marner's role in the play perfectly. You're the one expecting to play man on man defense with less men than the other team. The system does not say that Brodie should make a bad pinch he'll never make in time on the trailing forward in the neutral zone on the PK, and leave two attacking forwards behind him. And even in some weird world where it did, hockey is about more than systems. You need to understand and adapt to the unique situations that develop. They were on the PK, both forwards were in the neutral zone already after expecting a breakout pass that missed and went straight to the other team, Brodie was never going to make the pinch in time, and he'd risk opening up a 2 on 1 when the only real alternative if he didn't pinch was a 2v2 turning into a 3v3, which you want every time on the PK. That was not the play in that situation, regardless of whatever you think the system is. Marner should have read the play forming out of Brodie's bad decision quicker, but that should not have been his role in the play in the first place.

Marner made two minor mistakes on the goals against. What you describe aren't minor mistakes, but what you describe is wildly inaccurate. It wasn't a "brutal turnover". It was a reasonable one foot pass in the offensive zone to our 2nd best goal scorer who was calling for a pass while down a goal in the last minute with no other passing options and everybody going to the net. He didn't "sulk in the neutral zone", "abandon his position", have a "lazy backcheck", or "give up". He was half a second late reacting to a bad pinch by our defenseman after the other defenseman flubbed the breakout pass, and wasn't able to catch a speedy forward with a jump on him. You're letting the result skew your perception of the actual action.

The only blinders that seem to be on are blinders to everybody's else's contributions to the goals against, in order to incorrectly hyperbolize Marner's.
Taking the penalty that they score on? Who cares.
Doing nothing all game so that we need to pull the goalie? Who cares.
Flubbing the pass? Who cares.
Making a bad pinch and causing a 2 on 1? Who cares.
Going into a bad area and calling for a pass? Who cares.
Falling down and not creating any passing lanes when you have an extra player? Who cares.

But Marner breathes and out come the pitchforks.
He's struggled through patches this year, and it wasn't a particularly good game for him, but so much is being hyperbolized, and there are much bigger problems than Marner - in those goals, in this game, and throughout this season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If anything Marner needs to remember to keep his cool and don't force things with individual, eye popping skill. Sometimes you just need to make a simple play.

The hilarious thing is that he did make the most simple play. A short one foot pass to the oncoming goal scorer that was cocked and loaded for a shot.

 

[Evilhomer]

Every team has their ups and downs. However, Boston has the edge over us in net and on defence, and are also deeper on offence with their 12 forwards. Not to mention a better coach. I just feel we have too many holes to fill in order to be serious Cup contenders.

Boston is not deeper on offense. If anything, their biggest problem is consistent secondary scoring.

 

[Divine]

Thats not a good reason to keep Marner. Nylander has also outplayed Marner in the playoffs which is the main point.

So him not being tradable is not a good reason to keep him?

Buy him out or let him walk as a UFA then.

 

[Hellcat]

For anyone watching, the Leafs have, including LTIR, have a league high payroll of $97,000,000+, a .500 point winning percentage, had a relatively easy/average schedule ranked 19th of 32 teams (SOS -0.02), the SRS (Strength of Remaining Schedule) is actually ranked a little bit harder at 14th of 32 (SRS 0.15). We are tied for the last playoff spot in the East, two points ahead of 20th in the League. Which of course means we could be in a lottery spot in one day. Everyone remember that crappy Oiler team who fired their coach? They are 4 points behind us with the same number of games played, marinate on that, a team who fired their coach is 4 points behind us. Oh and St Lou who fired their coach, is also 4 points behind us. We continue to make middling moves, move Marner to a line with JT, move Willie to a line with Matty, and then move them back. We are on our 4th and 5th string goalies. Our team defence is abhorrent and the details in our game are non existent. the best thing about this season is Benoit and Laggesson are a revelation at 5 & 6 D playing 15 minutes a night and TBH the only reason why they are a revelation is because they are not F Up's, it's not that they are actually doing anything to help us win, they are just good enough to not be the reason why we are so average. We have the 7th and 11th best point producers and the best goal scorers but are barely a playoff team? Yet we stick with Keefe as the guy to lead us to the promised land...

 

[Hellcat]

Moving on from the core is admitting he was wrong all the times he said, "we will win with this core". He will die on that hill. Should be as soon as April if they lose in round #1.

Nothing guarantees them even round one, when the remaining games are simulated 1,000 times the Leafs finish with 96.7 points, the 9th place team (Tampa) finish with 89.7 points. Leafs are a bad week away from finishing outside of the playoffs. If you were going to bet on TBL or TML choking who is your money on? BTW I did say in September we would be a bubble team, if an Armchair GM like me could see this coming... how did the suits at MLSE not see this too?

 

[ACC1224]

NMC doesn’t mean the player won’t or can’t be traded.

All it means is they need to agree to it

Correct and it’s lunacy to think that’s going to happen

 

[andora]

For anyone watching, the Leafs have, including LTIR, have a league high payroll of $97,000,000+, a .500 point winning percentage, had a relatively easy/average schedule ranked 19th of 32 teams (SOS -0.02), the SRS (Strength of Remaining Schedule) is actually ranked a little bit harder at 14th of 32 (SRS 0.15). We are tied for the last playoff spot in the East, two points ahead of 20th in the League. Which of course means we could be in a lottery spot in one day. Everyone remember that crappy Oiler team who fired their coach? They are 4 points behind us with the same number of games played, marinate on that, a team who fired their coach is 4 points behind us. Oh and St Lou who fired their coach, is also 4 points behind us. We continue to make middling moves, move Marner to a line with JT, move Willie to a line with Matty, and then move them back. We are on our 4th and 5th string goalies. Our team defence is abhorrent and the details in our game are non existent. the best thing about this season is Benoit and Laggesson are a revelation at 5 & 6 D playing 15 minutes a night and TBH the only reason why they are a revelation is because they are not F Up's, it's not that they are actually doing anything to help us win, they are just good enough to not be the reason why we are so average. We have the 7th and 11th best point producers and the best goal scorers but are barely a playoff team? Yet we stick with Keefe as the guy to lead us to the promised land...

Oh look.. what is actually happening

Thank you that was refreshing.. no spin no gloss no reasons.. just here..

 

[Racer88]

You are right, but unless someone can show me a better way to spend that money I'm inclined to pay the core. It's easy to trade 16 and 88 or let them walk as UFA's, but very difficult to do so and improve the team. The type of players that we need to replace them typically don't enter FA, and even if they do there is no guarantee we can sign them.

I agree it’s going to be tough to get out of this spot but my concern is that management is paralyzed by fear of making any meaningful changes and we will simply run it back for another 4-5 years until these guys are past their prime and we will have to endure another rebuild.
i say if they crap the bed this year in the playoffs it’s time to retool no matter what the risk. These clown are heading to 28 years old. They are not kids anymore

 

[Scion]

I agree it’s going to be tough to get out of this spot but my concern is that management is paralyzed by fear of making any meaningful changes and we will simply run it back for another 4-5 years until these guys are past their prime and we will have to endure another rebuild.
i say if they crap the bed this year in the playoffs it’s time to retool no matter what the risk. These clown are heading to 28 years old. They are not kids anymore

I want to see how they surround the core with the increased cap and JT's deal expiring in the next two years. If it's a bust after that I'm cool with moving off of 16 or 88. This season clearly isn't going to be the year for a number of reasons.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm flabbergasted that you're assuming they're even going to make the playoffs at this point?

With this type of play, it's really in question.

Looks like this roster is on some serious borrowed time. They're too used to each other, they're tired of each other, they're playing like they've closed the chapter on this current setup and are just waiting for management to make a change. They're playing like they already know that the change is coming, so they're just going through the motions each game just waiting for it.

It really looks like the era of Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares has expired, and it's time to swap it out well before the playoffs. No way they can go back into round 1 (if they even make it) with this group. Didn't work last year, and is for sure not going to work this time around. Only a looney bin tenant (sorry is that offensive) would go into the upcoming playoffs with the same roster as last year which is essentially the same as what it is this year. These guys are cooked and as of the very last day of 2023, it's time to admit it's over for these players as a group and to start the process of changing them up.

And the goalies too. Hopeless. What a mess.

Treliving and co had better get started... there's a lot to fix here

More accurately, the era of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander was derailed five years ago by the signing of Tavares. Maybe after next season we can get it back on the rails.

 

[notDatsyuk]

11 million for Tavares derailed the rebuild and they still haven’t fixed it.

Paying RFAs like they were UFAs derailed the rebuild

Not mutually exclusive - one led directly to the other.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Brodie reads it correctly. His job is to pressure and leave the rest to his support. His support, McCabe does something similar. Everyone takes a man, but Marners sulking. Jarn is the high man, his role is to be high. It's Marners f*** up. Bad read, bad attitude, bad execution. Just a bad play.


You don't think Marner can make a saucer pass to Willy or a bank pass to Matthews? He couldn't have read time and space closing and controlled himself closing on the net limiting options? Couldn't have pivoted to his backhand or took back ice to create time and space?

These are two primary mistakes leading to goals. Stop them and there's no chance, let alone goal. Nobody else on the ice had that ability or influence, especially when they were both so basic. Don't sulk and stop skating, don't throw the puck away. These aren't high asks.

Domi took a penalty, we kill those often. Brodie steps up, likes he's supposed to. On the ENG he's in full control of the puck, forces a bad pass that's intercepted and that man marches down to score. He has options, but chooses to make the risky play. As you said, risk v. Reward, and he lost. Oddly enough, he looked lost a fair bit

Don't waste your time. He won't change his mind about anything (he still says that Marner isn't overpaid), and the rest of us see what happened on the plays.

By the way, I wouldn't use the laugh emoji - it shows up in his stats as a like, and sometimes I think that's the only reason for some of his takes.