Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 4-3 in OT .. Marner sets the franchise record with 19 games recording a point

[therealkoho]

Can't they do this crap at 6:45?

No they can't because that would ace a burden on the 18k fans in house, I'm not sure how that would be different except leaving 15 mins early. Yeah I don't get it either!

Many people. I don't need to show you who. Just check the GDT's

Maybe it's you sir who needs to go spelunking through old game threads

I think after the NJ game we're not going to get a lot of benefits of the doubt. I saw it, and wasn't surprised it was called back.

Shitty deal

So like how they don't call the rule book both ways

Engvall is a great PKer, but he is not used all that much right now.

He gets crapped on because he is big and not super physical, even though he uses his size and reach in other ways. Overall, he is a major positive player, especially when he is used in a shutdown role.

He has been really good since getting his legs under him, but I think I would keep him with Kampf/ZAR and let Malgin get more chances with better offensive players.

All except the Malgin part, he's been invisible a lot when hes gotten play time, he's a lot like our third pair last night being overwhelmed by bigger stronger players. I say it's time to bring up Steeves or Audette or maybe even Logan Shaw and give them a shot, heck I'd actually give Bobby McCann a shot at the 2LW position.

 

[therealkoho]

I'm not sure what we are doing in OT but we should probably try something different next time

WOOF

All in all not a bad result though
We played pretty well and got a point in Tampa even with our raft of injuries

Rotate the goaltenders every game, keep the boys fresh and try to keep them injury free and I think we are all good

We actually played really well considering we're down our top 3 Dman, don't have a LW for the 2Line and have to play within a rule book that the opposition doesn't mostly.

 

[therealkoho]

Short of not playing his 40 mill forwards, who have all consistently made the exact same mistakes except maybe Tavares, then what do you want him to do?

These are the situations where they should dominate, but instead they make risky, low IQ plays. Or they make mistakes and the other team pounces.

It is on the players to perform in these situations.

Yeah that half hearted lame arsed back hand pass that barely left his stick and was easily scooped up, was hardly becoming of a guy who won the Hart. Why he wouldn't have put it deep for MM already headed to the corner is a mystery, then he takes 3 quick strides and moves into the slot. I mean that's what you're supposed to do isn't it? It's basic hockey 101.

 

[Gary Nylund]

2022-2023: 1-6
2021-2022: 6-6
2020-2021: 5-7
2019-2020: 7-4
2018-2019: 6-6
2017-2018: 5-5
2016-2017: 6-7

We have mostly hovered around .500 at OT, which is not good for a team like ours. It hasn't just been a problem this year. Our SO record is typically pretty bad too, which is also not good for a team like ours.

Thing to keep in mind too though is that 4 of our OT losses came with Kallgren in net and he was beat clean on the high glove every time. He didn't look competitive on any of the goals against. Then you also add in Murray's goal against today, which wasn't even a good opportunity against. At some point, it can't be an automatic goal against either... And that is what it effectively is right now.

The problem with the skaters is Marner more than anyone else. Sure, Matthews/Rielly/Nylander/Tavares make mistakes too, but the numbers are pretty damning for Marner.

Last 3 years:
Matthews with Marner vs. without: 25 GF% vs. 66.67 GF%
Nylander with Marner vs. without: 28.57 GF% vs. 50 GF%
Rielly with Marner vs. without: 18.18 GF% vs. 66.67 GF%
Tavares with Marner vs. without: 50 GF% vs. 30 GF%. (Tavares didn't do well with Nylander, but did well with Matthews and Rielly)

Unfortunately, I doubt we take Marner out of 3-on-3 altogether, even though he has a 33% GF% in his career right now. Matthews and Nylander, by comparison, are around 50% and are only that low because of their time with Marner. Rielly is a little bit lower than Matthews/Nylander, but spent more time with Marner too and is still by far our best defensive option for 3-on-3.

We probably need to start treating it like we would a shootout or PK. Your best guys are maybe not the ones who should be used, because some lesser guys are just specialists at it. Marner is already used more than any other forward more or less in the NHL. We are already looking at ways to cut down his ice time, and OT is a much better place to do that than cutting him at times when he is far more effective (like 5-on-5, PP, or PK). We can afford to use Jarnkrok (6-3 OT record in the last 6 years), Holmberg (reminds me a lot of a LH version of Jarnkrok stylistically, but with a slightly worse shot at this point), Malgin (one of the best European players in recent history; he is used to open ice), or Robertson (excellent shot and strong enough skater who has our only OT goal so far this year) instead, and get them more ice time.

All things said, I think the strategy should be Matthews-Nylander-Rielly to start. If they are tired (either at the beginning of OT or you need to take a draw after they have taken a shift), then you can use Tavares for the draw and get him off ASAP similar to Spezza on the PK. Then have 2 of Holmberg/Jarnkrok/Malgin/Robertson. I would consider Liljegren as the next guy behind Rielly, but Gio/Sandin should also receive consideration and they mostly just need to figure out who works best.

I wouldn't spend much time worrying about this, it's so far down the list of things to worry about and considering there are only so many minutes on the day, I'd go so far as to say it shouldn't even be on the list.

We play on average less than one minute per game of this high variance nonsense over the course of the season and it doesn't exist in the playoffs. That's a nothing burger.

Keefe, do you hear me? You were spending time on this in practice the other day. Don't.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

1 in 6 in ot. That's a lot of points to miss out on.

Teams have an 83% chance of beating us in OT. That better change Sheldon.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

So when the numbers don't support your statements, just ignore them? You argued that Tampa was the team using physicality, getting us hot and bothered, and drawing us into retaliation penalties, and seemed to be suggesting that that's why they won and got more PPs, but that's literally the exact opposite of what happened. We were the more physical team. We got them hot and bothered. They took retaliation penalties, not us. And they still ended up with more PPs. And none of that was really the difference in the game.

We battled them to an impressive, hard-fought draw while missing our 3 best defensemen and getting questionable officiating, and then lost in a 3v3 gimmick on a weak shot from the outside. There are a multitude of ways to build a winner. What we need to stop are these labels and black and white boxes and blaming every loss on the team not playing the exact style you prefer.

Not only is that untrue, but I'll take being the better team over the "bigger" and "tougher" team any day anyway.

Funny how it consistently seems to be a little more unfavourable at more unfavourable times for some teams.

Literally as soon as Mitch scored the short handed goal, in the Refs minds it wasn’t FAIR to Tampa to be down 1 while ON a PP. They still felt like they needed to please the crowd. You can feel it. 4-3 PP. Not even 30 seconds in. Crap you never call…

‘Uhh hey look, please like Hockey, I know you can go to 10 other sports instead but please buy a Stamkos jersey derpderp’

Sunny states don’t give a F about hockey. They go there to get drunk, and buy great seats for 30$, cool off in the rink.
You go there as a NFL NBA NCAA Pro golf Nascar lover and you see Refs give your team ONE LESS player and you are down a goal? Boooo. Wait we go up one guy and Leafs score on us short handed?! SCAMM

F this… I’m out. I’m never going to a hockey game again. Worst 30$ lower seats ever.
Meanwhile, 400$ seat in Toronto sold out for eternity.

Y’all see Arizona? They’re debating a small arena cause it’s so risky.

MLSE and Habs, are single handedly subsidizing these sunny USA teams like the NBA does to WNBA. Like Bull Burr says ‘You don’t sell any Effin tickets’!!!!

Money talks. Incentives drives everything. And there is no Money when a Canadian team takes prime Playoff airing time.
No incentives to give beneficial reffing.

I use to think no way, there’s no reffing that’s so clearly bias.

Then I saw Babcock era, 5’7 speedy leafs playing possession hockey have 5 penalties BACK TO BACK VS a Chara Bruins team on an elimination game, Leafs down 1. 3rd period.

Disney fairy tales don’t even go that far. Give me princess who lost her shoe or a flying carpet before a small midget team vs bruins get 5 back to back penalties.

Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
True fans who watch these games know it. Feel it. See it.

We are effing subsidizing wnba type fickle hockey markets in the states. What a joke

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yeah Kuch leveling Holl from behind and not getting a 5 minute major (when in reality it should be getting reviewed for suspension)

It's just people upset that it's against their favorite team!

Seriously?

I took a worse hit than that a couple of weeks ago in a non-contact 45+ league from a guy I've known for 20 years.

Refs gave him 2 minutes.

(He apologized.)

 

[stickty111]

No they can't because that would ace a burden on the 18k fans in house, I'm not sure how that would be different except leaving 15 mins early. Yeah I don't get it either!

Maybe it's you sir who needs to go spelunking through old game threads

So like how they don't call the rule book both ways

All except the Malgin part, he's been invisible a lot when hes gotten play time, he's a lot like our third pair last night being overwhelmed by bigger stronger players. I say it's time to bring up Steeves or Audette or maybe even Logan Shaw and give them a shot, heck I'd actually give Bobby McCann a shot at the 2LW position.

I have checked and Matthews has been criticized a lot like last night on the OT winner. Anyways silly topic

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

2022-2023: 1-6
2021-2022: 6-6
2020-2021: 5-7
2019-2020: 7-4
2018-2019: 6-6
2017-2018: 5-5
2016-2017: 6-7

We have mostly hovered around .500 at OT, which is not good for a team like ours. It hasn't just been a problem this year. Our SO record is typically pretty bad too, which is also not good for a team like ours.

Thing to keep in mind too though is that 4 of our OT losses came with Kallgren in net and he was beat clean on the high glove every time. He didn't look competitive on any of the goals against. Then you also add in Murray's goal against today, which wasn't even a good opportunity against. At some point, it can't be an automatic goal against either... And that is what it effectively is right now.

The problem with the skaters is Marner more than anyone else. Sure, Matthews/Rielly/Nylander/Tavares make mistakes too, but the numbers are pretty damning for Marner.

Last 3 years:
Matthews with Marner vs. without: 25 GF% vs. 66.67 GF%
Nylander with Marner vs. without: 28.57 GF% vs. 50 GF%
Rielly with Marner vs. without: 18.18 GF% vs. 66.67 GF%
Tavares with Marner vs. without: 50 GF% vs. 30 GF%. (Tavares didn't do well with Nylander, but did well with Matthews and Rielly)

Unfortunately, I doubt we take Marner out of 3-on-3 altogether, even though he has a 33% GF% in his career right now. Matthews and Nylander, by comparison, are around 50% and are only that low because of their time with Marner. Rielly is a little bit lower than Matthews/Nylander, but spent more time with Marner too and is still by far our best defensive option for 3-on-3.

We probably need to start treating it like we would a shootout or PK. Your best guys are maybe not the ones who should be used, because some lesser guys are just specialists at it. Marner is already used more than any other forward more or less in the NHL. We are already looking at ways to cut down his ice time, and OT is a much better place to do that than cutting him at times when he is far more effective (like 5-on-5, PP, or PK). We can afford to use Jarnkrok (6-3 OT record in the last 6 years), Holmberg (reminds me a lot of a LH version of Jarnkrok stylistically, but with a slightly worse shot at this point), Malgin (one of the best European players in recent history; he is used to open ice), or Robertson (excellent shot and strong enough skater who has our only OT goal so far this year) instead, and get them more ice time.

All things said, I think the strategy should be Matthews-Nylander-Rielly to start. If they are tired (either at the beginning of OT or you need to take a draw after they have taken a shift), then you can use Tavares for the draw and get him off ASAP similar to Spezza on the PK. Then have 2 of Holmberg/Jarnkrok/Malgin/Robertson. I would consider Liljegren as the next guy behind Rielly, but Gio/Sandin should also receive consideration and they mostly just need to figure out who works best.

Sure, they haven't been great but it's clearly FAR worse this season. Something is different. Also you last point: the number of times Keefe has the Matthews line out in the last two minutes in games where we're clearly going to shootout is also disturbing.

 

[Enniskillen]

I wanted to say a bad game for the Leafs, and then remembered that half of D are on LTIR plus Jankrok who is good defensively. Still sh.tty pass by Mathews. They must be hating OT now. Want to see new faces in OT just for fun.

 

[Gallagbi]

the number of times Keefe has the Matthews line out in the last two minutes in games where we're clearly going to shootout is also disturbing.

What?

 

[The Podium]

I watch these potential playoff match-ups closer than some random team the Leafs won't face in a playoff matchup.

Leafs missing some key defenders skews the outcome result, but giving the game away to TB still disappointing on a goal Murray should have stopped. IMO

Leave it to mess to draw pessimistic conclusions about a playoff series based on 3-on-3 overtime that doesn’t exist in playoffs

 

[LeafChief]

Leave it to mess to draw pessimistic conclusions about a playoff series based on 3-on-3 overtime that doesn’t exist in playoffs

A poster above pointed out that Mess hasn't posted in a PGT since the Leafs lost to the Isles in OT.

Incredible stuff, really.

 

[Racer88]

It's actually the single "tied hockey game" point and the "Gary's gimmicks extra point"

Hahahaha

We outhit Tampa. We outplayed Tampa. We got Tampa hot and bothered. We played just as "big boy" as Tampa did, if not more, and we didn't take any retaliation penalties (while Tampa did).
Tampa still had more PPs, got them at the most opportune times, and got away with suspendable actions without even a whisper from commentary or media during or after.
Your narratives are wrong.

you left out the most important fact…….we still lost

 

[Dekes For Days]

you left out the most important fact…….we still lost

Actually, that's not the most important fact for the discussion you were quoting. Nobody denied that we lost the 3v3 gimmick.

 

[Racer88]

Actually, that's not the most important fact for the discussion you were quoting. Nobody denied that we lost the 3v3 gimmick.

For me it trumps all else. Winning is what they get paid for

 

[ACC1224]

Leave it to mess to draw pessimistic conclusions about a playoff series based on 3-on-3 overtime that doesn’t exist in playoffs

What’s the pessimistic part?

 

[The Podium]

What’s the pessimistic part?

Don’t you start too

 

[Cournoyer12]

Literally as soon as Mitch scored the short handed goal, in the Refs minds it wasn’t FAIR to Tampa to be down 1 while ON a PP. They still felt like they needed to please the crowd. You can feel it. 4-3 PP. Not even 30 seconds in. Crap you never call…

‘Uhh hey look, please like Hockey, I know you can go to 10 other sports instead but please buy a Stamkos jersey derpderp’

Sunny states don’t give a F about hockey. They go there to get drunk, and buy great seats for 30$, cool off in the rink.
You go there as a NFL NBA NCAA Pro golf Nascar lover and you see Refs give your team ONE LESS player and you are down a goal? Boooo. Wait we go up one guy and Leafs score on us short handed?! SCAMM

F this… I’m out. I’m never going to a hockey game again. Worst 30$ lower seats ever.
Meanwhile, 400$ seat in Toronto sold out for eternity.

Y’all see Arizona? They’re debating a small arena cause it’s so risky.

MLSE and Habs, are single handedly subsidizing these sunny USA teams like the NBA does to WNBA. Like Bull Burr says ‘You don’t sell any Effin tickets’!!!!

Money talks. Incentives drives everything. And there is no Money when a Canadian team takes prime Playoff airing time.
No incentives to give beneficial reffing.

I use to think no way, there’s no reffing that’s so clearly bias.

Then I saw Babcock era, 5’7 speedy leafs playing possession hockey have 5 penalties BACK TO BACK VS a Chara Bruins team on an elimination game, Leafs down 1. 3rd period.

Disney fairy tales don’t even go that far. Give me princess who lost her shoe or a flying carpet before a small midget team vs bruins get 5 back to back penalties.

Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
True fans who watch these games know it. Feel it. See it.

We are effing subsidizing wnba type fickle hockey markets in the states. What a joke

Well put!!

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

What?

What's the question?

 

[ACC1224]

Don’t you start too

 

[therealkoho]

I have checked and Matthews has been criticized a lot like last night on the OT winner. Anyways silly topic

Yeppers we'll just say that plethora of anecdotal evidence is sufficient and Im now thoroughly convinced

 

[therealkoho]

4th highest point total in the league right now, even with all the so called warts. I wouldn’t be that disheartening if that were my club… just saying, think the best is still coming lads!

Just wait until Matthews gets his mojo going and we get TJ and Morgs back and have a dependable 3rd pair

And I also want to add that I am really happy with what 37 and 38 are bringing, both of them are progressing week to week I'd have them as the second pair leave Sandin on PP1 and Gio and Holl as the 3rd pair.

Which ever pair is really going gets more minutes with Reilly-Brodie always getting at least 18+.

 

[Dekes For Days]

For me it trumps all else.

The outcome is important. It was not what was being discussed.

 

[Havoc]

Core 4 running the league as predicted. Anyone with an eye for hockey knew it was RIP for the league when they're all 25 and over.

Run a nice trade and it's a wrap. Core 4 deserves better. Nothing more to say from now until game 82 for me.