Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 4-2

I think they call Garland something different now (release?). Yeah, I had the same experience with that crap dripping out of the spray pack all over my back. Probably why I got thyroid cancer...lol
Two guys from our crew died of Lou Getig’s disease that’s a mathematical oddity, but some of the old timers used to tell stories of spraying Agent Orange and Paraquat, luckily that was before my time. The worst I was exposed to were Malethion, Garland, Simazine, Calmix, Killex, and Roundup……..
 
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Shanny should go home to Detroit or New York where he belongs. Dude only sees the Leafs as a means to end. Like Chelios said, he is a politician. Since Shanny arrived here we have become nothing but doormats.
Chelios isn't a perfect arbiter of integrity either and I don't think we're on a moral high ground to burden Shanahan with Chelios' perspective of him.

I would wager that Shanahan submits to his own standard and if he does re-sign, will do so for a shorter term that adheres to Treliving's tenure and Matthews' contract. And by standards, I mean he's been more than fair with previous players, coaches and managers allowing time for opportunity of redemption and conclusive assessment. He's also owned his mistakes at pressers. But it is fashionable to completely forget what steps Shanahan took towards improving our club and the systematic fashion he went about empowering certain people against specific context.

All that said, that doesn't mean that it would illogical that he is the next piece to go. Quite the opposite.

I think there's a possibility we were duped by the two foundational pieces that NO ONE could have predicted - including Mark Hunter when drafted Marner, or us for Marner's first three seasons.

The obvious point of departure occurred when we signed Tavares. That singular act dismantled every necessary developmental and team building gate. And shock of shocks, it's already been seven years since that signing.

And that's what everyone is feeling because of the perch we found ourselves looking down from - shock that we haven't made the Conference Finals, the Finals...one single second round and two first rounds....It's justifiable to be in shock given the heights that seemed inevitable.

Mike Babcock was right on so many fronts. And one thing he NAILED Matthews on was something he shared in person with him when he said something to the effect: If your talent exceeds your work ethic, you'll never succeed.

I think Shanahan has pivoted correctly. I think Covid played a part and I think Dubas saw the light too late as well. As I mentioned to another member, its as though there's a memo that's routinely sent from above management that says, X-outlay for X-type of player with X-type trade impact for some unknown media value that's handed down, and GM after GM, this self-sabotaging Toronto model imposes itself as though each new iteration of Leafs management hasn't seen PRECISELY the same red button pushed to our detriment.
 
I think Shanahan’s ego loves the idea of being the guy that brought the cup to Toronto. He wants to win. He’s a Stanley cup champ and knows what it takes to win. Unfortunately the core is rotten and they are not playoff warrior types.

Let’s hope for a McDavid signing to the leafs next summer and rebuild around him
 
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Shanny should go home to Detroit or New York where he belongs. Dude only sees the Leafs as a means to end. Like Chelios said, he is a politician. Since Shanny arrived here we have become nothing but doormats.

There's nothing wrong with being a politician as a team president, and Chris Chelios has his own problems.

Shanahan's problem is Part 2 of the plan did not pan out after a spectacular build. He was too invested in his vision and his players and couldn't assess properly. Has nothing to do with being a phony.
 
The arrogance of that staement will never get old, Boy Wonder thought he knew it all, while the reality was he knew f**k all………
He didn’t take enough time to evaluate them. I bet he learned from that mistake.
The Bruins traded Thornton and had 15 yrs of success.
 
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The truly difficult part will be choosing to tear it down before AM ‘s next contract is coming due.

We have changed coaches multiple times, we have reconfigured the personnel and at some point you have to face the fact that AM is not a winner.

To Quote Shorsey:

“The kids don’t want it. The don’t skate, they don’t score, they don’t hit, they don’t fight, they float!”

“They don’t love to win….No they don’t hate to lose”

Give me a team of players who hate to lose more than they love winning and they will bring a cup here. AM loves winning more than he hates losing. In his 8+ years here I’ve never seen him get made once. Pull the Masai move and trade your franchise player to restart the rebuild.
 
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The arrogance of that staement will never get old, Boy Wonder thought he knew it all, while the reality was he knew f**k all………
I think it was David Nivens' autobiography, he was relating an incident with a foreign director who was obviously not too fluent in English. At one point he yelled at the cast/crew "you think I know f**k nothing, but I tell you, I know f**k all".
 
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The truly difficult part will be choosing to tear it down before AM ‘s next contract is coming due.

We have changed coaches multiple times, we have reconfigured the personnel and at some point you have to face the fact that AM is not a winner.

To Quote Shorsey:

“The kids don’t want it. The don’t skate, they don’t score, they don’t hit, they don’t fight, they float!”

“They don’t love to win….No they don’t hate to lose”

Give me a team of players who hate to lose more than they love winning and they will bring a cup here. AM loves winning more than he hates losing. In his 8+ years here I’ve never seen him get made once. Pull the Masai move and trade your franchise player to restart the rebuild.
Retool I couldn’t survive another rebuild
 
Blow this f***ing team up in the offseason. Just keep Nylander, Knies, Woll and Stolarz. Tank for McKenna.

Literally dump any and everything else on this trash roster/front office.

For the billionth time, this should have happened after the Montreal series and arguably after the Columbus series. These losers have never been serious about winning, just about getting paid. I can't take watching this shit anymore.
We don't have a first till 2028 I hate that we gave up our 1st because it doesn't allow you to reset this team.
 
It's a clear example of how their indecision has led to the team declining

On the one hand, Leafs management want us to play a style similar to Florida which is based on a heavy dump and chase + strong forecheck. On the other hand, they want to keep the core 4 under all circumstances and keep running it back.

The two of these things don't work together. The core 4 struggle in a forechecking system and you're basically wasting their talent.

If we want to give us a timeline comparable to the Capitals - we're in our Dale Hunter era. The philosophy doesn't make sense given the players and you need to decide if you keep the players or the style
Timeline wise that would make sense

Caps had Dale Hunter in 2012 which was OVs D+8 year while we have Berube in Matthews D+9 year

After 2012 I think the caps let go of two former core players in Alex Semin, and Mike Green who were both very talented but injury prone and tended to play soft and choke come playoffs. That could be us with Marner and Tavares this summer.

Caps retooled a lot over the next few seasons and won b2b president trophies in 2016 and 2017 before their cup in 2018.

Caps had good scouting and trading for secondary core players.

They kept OV and Backstrom but added Orlov, Calrson, Kuznetsov, Holtby, Wilson Vrana, Burakovsky via drafts to add to their core and traded for Oshie, Niskinen, Eller and Orpik via trades

Our issue is our drafting has been subpar and we dont have many high impact prospects entering into the team next few years. We also have no 1sts or 2nds I think until 2027 or 2028 so we can not expect to do a 2-3 year quick retool via quality prospect drafting
 
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We don't have a first till 2028 I hate that we gave up our 1st because it doesn't allow you to reset this team.
We do have our 1st but only if its bottom 5 or so.

Tanking will be super hard as other teams suck a lot more than us. Wed have to deal everyone out and that could mean major lost value for 34, 44, 88, etc.

We just signed McCabe, tanev, OEL and traded for Carlo to compliment a Berube style D. Dealing them all out so soon will be tough.

Plus if we do somehow end bottom 5 in 2026 then our 2027 and 2028 picks get unprotected which kicks the pain down a few years.

We need to be a playoff team at least next 2 years before we can begin a rebuild
 
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When there’s no room there’s not much they can do. With Matthews slowed even more it’s almost impossible for him.
Da faster da games get da less and less involved you will see Matty and Mitch ... but we got a chance with Stolly Tanev McCabe OEL Carlo and Benoit .. we will need 4 outstanding games from da core group of 5 to win a series
 
Retool I couldn’t survive another rebuild
It gonna have to happen unless McDavid decides to come here. I think every leafs fans dream. If he resigns with the Oilers-likely. We start to tear it down IMO unless some great UFA sign here this summer.

They need to do it right this time. They tried to rush things rather than take their time. We wasted a good number of picks and signed character players when we weren’t ready and it cost us everything IMO. The year we drafted AM we wasted the 31 pick. Also we kept players we knew weren't gonna be part of the team and let them walk for free. We could have gotten at least one more 1st maybe two if we traded JVR, Bozak and somebody else. We also didn’t lock up our stars early enough. Every other team has 8 year deals signed at the end of year two of the ELC and we keep sleeping.
 
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Almost impossible to determine if an 18 year-old player will develop that as a pro, and the best prospects are taught to tell GMs what they want to hear during player interviews.

Berube was sold as a coach who can instill proper playoff attitude. We'll find out in a month.
It was pretty obvious Marner, Nylander and Matthews would be highly skilled, non physical players and at the same time seeing that players like the Tkachuk brothers would be physical players who would do anything to win. Even after three seasons watching their core Shanahan/Dubas could have adjusted but they traded Kadri instead of finding more gamers so he wasn’t the only Leaf to stand up to the Bruins and then let Hyman walk. Leafs management bet that skill alone was enough to win a cup and they destroyed the chance to build a real cup contender by settling for a few star players who brought regular season and personal success rather than building a team with 23 good players who would compete hard when the going got tough.
 
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That’s why the leafs are always trying hard to find space and passing lanes and make perfect passes down low/off wall on the powerplay. We’re always trying to make the perfect play. Because we lack a powerplay quarterback with a big, long, accurate and hard shot. But like you said, other teams also know our weakness and as a result, they just collapse and disrupt the passing lines and easily take away time and space from our forwards.

If we had defensemen with big and hard shots taking much more shots at the net, we would also be able to create much more rebounds/second scoring chances around the net, for big players with hands, size and skill on our forward group like Knies, Matthews, McMann and Tavares.
The Leafs also don’t pass the puck well. Too much time on the PP is spent accepting a pass and dusting it off. Very few one timers or shots off the pass. The best power plays in the league pass the puck well and have more set positions to shoot from. The Leafs PP is just too easy to defend.
 
Yeah people on here say this all the time, I don't think it means anything actually
To me it means they’re too risk averse and unwilling to make hard decisions, and the changes needed to be a cup contender. They make a ton of money and that’s how Shanahan has kept his job this long. Teams that don’t have nearly the money the Leafs do are far more ruthless and hold their players to account. Teams like Tampa, Bruins, Florida, Vegas, Dallas have consistent team success and trade away players or let them walk if they think it will make the team better. The Leafs have run it back year after year without changing the core of their team even though they should have seen that this group couldn’t win when it counted five years ago. To me they’re either not serious enough about winning a cup or they’re completely incompetent which is still an inditement on their commitment to winning at all costs.
 
To me it means they’re too risk averse and unwilling to make hard decisions, and the changes needed to be a cup contender. They make a ton of money and that’s how Shanahan has kept his job this long. Teams that don’t have nearly the money the Leafs do are far more ruthless and hold their players to account. Teams like Tampa, Bruins, Florida, Vegas, Dallas have consistent team success and trade away players or let them walk if they think it will make the team better. The Leafs have run it back year after year without changing the core of their team even though they should have seen that this group couldn’t win when it counted five years ago. To me they’re either not serious enough about winning a cup or they’re completely incompetent which is still an inditement on their commitment to winning at all costs.
That's all fair enough, I do not think Seriousness is a very intelligible metric but I can see how it kind of tracks from the JFJ hire through to this group. I guess I find it more interesting how these words and phrases seem to catch on, the Leafs not being a serious team being one recent example but north-south hockey is another that came and went from the summer to maybe Nov or Dec. Not many here talk about our new north-south style anymore
 
This place is toxic only because everyone overreacts after every win and loss. Teams are allowed to lose a couple of games in a row. The great Tampa Bay Lightning, the team that everyone here loves to praise, lost three in a row before last night. Florida lost to Montreal and looked terrible doing it. It happens. These games of course have value for determining where teams land in the standings, but history shows that regular season games tend to have pretty low predictive value for the outcome of playoff games. Judge this team for what it does in games 5, 6 and 7 of a playoff series, not game 68 of the regular season.
It’s also toxic because we have seen where this is heading. One playoff series win in nine attempts has given people PTSD and game sevens have a lot to do with that.
 
If this were actually the case, then this place would be far more measured after the Leafs win a few games in a row, but it's not. And that's fine. It's the nature of being a sports fan. But just like you shouldn't plan a parade when the team wins three games in a row, there is no reason to start talking about rebuilds after they lose two games in a row. Let's see what they look like when the playoffs start.
Who’s planning parades on here? Names please.
 
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That's all fair enough, I do not think Seriousness is a very intelligible metric but I can see how it kind of tracks from the JFJ hire through to this group. I guess I find it more interesting how these words and phrases seem to catch on, the Leafs not being a serious team being one recent example but north-south hockey is another that came and went from the summer to maybe Nov or Dec. Not many here talk about our new north-south style anymore
What is our style ? I have no idea what it is. Maybe the North South style stuff gained some traction early in the season when Berube had their attention. That structure and discipline along with stellar goaltending led to some success and the players bought in until the more physical demands and injuries started piling up. To me this team isn’t built to play that physically demanding style especially their star players who like to possess the puck and stick check to get it back. Hard to play dump and chase with a soft core group including their highest paid defenseman who looks like he’s playing in an old timers league. They’ve had three different coaches with different approaches and none have molded them into a cup contender. It seems obvious that paying five soft players 61% of their cap was not only a disastrous decision but running it back year after year and keeping Shanahan in his position pointed the Titanic straight toward the iceberg.
 
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