Yeah, because toughness will get a real boost from Crybaby MacKinnon, if he doesn't whine and demand a trade right after being drafted, Monahan who has one career fight and doesn't want to drop the gloves after his late hits, or a tiny Drouin.
Leafs lack of toughness
- Thread starter Gary Bettman
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Yeah, because toughness will get a real boost from Crybaby MacKinnon, if he doesn't whine and demand a trade right after being drafted, Monahan who has one career fight and doesn't want to drop the gloves after his late hits, or a tiny Drouin.
Leaf Army
Registered User
Biggs is a surefire NHLer. I liked him in the WJC. He wasn't a standout but he's a leader, killed penalties and played a real solid team game. He's a team oriented guy and not selfish at all.
Plus he's been a part of three straight US gold medal teams. He's a winner. He won't score a ton of points in the NHL but will be an invaluable team member.
As for the thread, yes the Leafs are much, much too soft. Don't know why Brian has had such a hard time solving this problem. Biggs definitely shouldn't be on the team this year or even next year probably.
JAMmer124
Independent Living
I understand that size isn't toughness, but you must be joking implying Drouin is tough. Kids got all the talent in the world here, but lets be realistic, if anyone in the elite top 7-8 this year is going to get bullied in the NHL, it'll be Drouin.
And I don't recall your Nichuskin comments, but he's one kid I'd love to get on this team. Plays a NA game with the elite Russian skillset.
The Winter Soldier
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The Winter Soldier
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Martin St Louis I would term is a tough player, there are other variables to toughness than fighting.
I was praising Nichushkin here before anyone knew who he was, I don't exclusively pick on European players as you widely believe here. I have also complimented other comrades, such as Datsyuk, Zubov, Konstantinov, for whatever it's worth.
P.S I also like the Zadorov kid this draft, more cold water on that theory.
Leaf Army
Registered User
There's also a difference between toughness and being intimidating.
St. Louis might be tough but he's not going to intimidate anybody. You can't have a whole team full of guys with St. Louis-type toughness. You need some scary guys too.
The Winter Soldier
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You need both, not just one. Leafs as a whole are the softest team in the NHL. To draft players that do not possess either critaria of toughness is a complete waste IMO.
You want character guys, you know you can go to war with.
Leaf Army
Registered User
Biggs as no offensive upside. Third-fourth line is the best case scenario.
Mr Knies Guy
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Agreed. Won't take more than a few games for us to see the pitiful zone clearances, zero net presence, and letting opposing forwards stand in Reimer's face; this team won't be any different than what we saw last season, they'll let the opposition step all over them and play passionless
Fogelhund
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Yup, which is basically what most of us expected... probably 3rd line, maybe 20-30 point upside.
btw... Barkov plays well along the boards, and in front of the net... he goes hard to the net and fights for pucks. He isn't fight tough, but he is physically strong and fights for pucks. I've watched a few of his games in the FEL, and he isn't a soft guy at all.
Yes, this team will need to get grittier, and maybe even tougher.
That is unlikely to happen this year, but we've got some kids in the pipeline, and may have room to make moves next season.
Leaf Army
Registered User
I agree he's most likely a third or fourth liner but I wouldn't say he has no offensive upside. He still has an outside chance of being a second liner depending on how he adjusts to the pro game.
I see him playing a Scott Hartnell style with David Clarkson like production. He'll be a heart and soul player and an important part of a winning team.
Brewsky
King Of The Ice Mugs
It was the *********, most crappiest feeling in the world to see your team be humbled, steamrolled, bullied like they've been by Boston.
Drew311
Makes The Pass
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What do you think Burke has been doing the past 4 drafts? His drafts have been full of tough, character kids.
Just because he doesn't use his first round pick every year on a "tough guy" doesn't mean he's not drafting players with toughness and character.
If you have a top 10 pick in the draft, you don't draft the toughest kid, you draft the kid that has the highest talent ceiling. If he's talented and tough, bonus. But you don't go out of your way to draft someone because he's tough, and in the process pass over the next Giroux or Backstrom because he doesn't fill the toughness/character criteria.
We need tougher D-men for sure.
Forward wise we did add a bit of toughness in Mcclement and Komarov(mcclement wise, I guess that's more strength than toughness.)
also if we use a third line of Frattin-Mcclement-Kulemin, that's not exactly a weak line.
I'm also not as worried due to the shortened season, the energy will be up and who knows what will happen.
Forward wise we did add a bit of toughness in Mcclement and Komarov(mcclement wise, I guess that's more strength than toughness.)
also if we use a third line of Frattin-Mcclement-Kulemin, that's not exactly a weak line.
I'm also not as worried due to the shortened season, the energy will be up and who knows what will happen.
Ugh, "toughness" is overrated on this board to the point where I want to puke. It doesn't affect the outcome of the hockey game nearly as much as people here seem to think. Look at Chicago and Detroit winning the Stanley Cup in recent years.
The only teams that steamrolled us last year were Boston and Florida. One of these teams is not like the other.
We actually had a winning record vs. Boston with an even softer team in 2010-2011.
The only teams that steamrolled us last year were Boston and Florida. One of these teams is not like the other.
We actually had a winning record vs. Boston with an even softer team in 2010-2011.
Everyone keeps mentioning Boston. If we look at the Bruins and Leafs roster two seasons ago where the Leafs took the series 4-2-0, did the Bruins have considerably less tough guys than they did last year while we had considerably more tough guys than we had last year? The Bruins aren't impossible to beat. The Leafs have done it before with the majority of players that are still on the roster going forward. We need to see a Leafs team embrace a Carlyle system that focuses on defense and accountability. If they can do that, we might be surprised at how the current players can play against a tough, hard nosed team. Then again, maybe we won't be surprised at all.
Drew311
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Chicago had lots of toughness and grit.
Byfuglien, Ladd, Bolland, Seabrook, Brouwer, Eager, Burish.
All of these guys aren't necessarily fighters, but they are all physical and extremely hard to play against.
I think being an intimidating team goes a long way to being successful. If you can get teams dreading playing you beause they know they're going to get banged up, they already have the a mental advantage before the game even begins.
Los Angeles and Boston were also both physical, gritty teams. I think toughness is a huge factor in today's NHL.
Paris in Flames
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Leaf Army
Registered User
There are many different paths to building a winner. If you have a roster like Detroit's, then maybe yes you don't need as much of a physical game.
We don't have that luxury.
Also Detroit usually had an enforcer playing regularly (Probert, McCarthy) and had plenty of abrasiveness in their lineup.
The Detroit/Colorado rivalry featured some of the biggest and most memorable brawls in NHL history.
They relied on plenty of toughness to get to where they did.
It's a legit criticism for BB's entire tenure for sure, but he has added "toughness" in the last year. The main additions of 2012 were JVR, McClement, and Ashton (plus maybe Deschamps if you count him as a main addition, which I don't). Throw in the pseudo-graduation of prospects like Frattin and Komarov and that's a fairly decent amount of toughness brought in. There's no straight wrecking ball fighter type, but so be it, it's not like Orr and Rosehill, or even the better versions of either, would've turned the tide in the Bruins slaughters. The team needed serious roster changes rather than a one or two player bandaid.
One of the issues kind of hiding the change right now is that the players those guys are designed to replace are under contract for this season. JVR over Mac. McClement over Connolly. Ashton over Lombardi (all kind of guesses, but about right). So while some of the less tough players have to move down the depth chart, they won't be replaced with your more prototypical depth/tough guys until '13/'14.
On D, it's basically only Holzer for Schenn starting and I agree I'd like to see a bit more jam back there, although I liked Franson's use of size as the season went on last year. He doesn't go Phaneuf or McCabe on guys by any stretch nor will he drop 'em to protect someone else, but he was using his size effectively, IMO. If Holzer and Franson could counterpoint Gardiner and Liles, there's a decent balance in the back-end. Still, replacing Schenn with higher end top 4 defensive d-man (basically what Komi was hoped to be) would change the dynamic of how the D-corps looks from a toughness perspective.
I don't mean to be rude, but I find the toughness debate is usually a foil for complaining about the lack of a heavyweight or the fact that Kessel isn't Gilmour or Clark. Both are true, but for some it's the end of the world and for others it's meh.
It's not like there've been all these opportunities to add the Lucic/Hartnell's of the world and BB's passed on them. Or even the Foligno/Clowe or Clutterbuck/Torres kinds of useful guys (putting them together the way I did isn't quite right, but I think my point is vaguely understandable). Would we really be happier if BB had given one of the ludicrous 4.5m deals last offseason to a Leino, Umberger, or Ladd kind of guy?
I'd say there's a legit criticism that he went against his prior successes with team building to try and fit with Wilson's style and he deserves criticism for how that turned out, but there has been a concerted effort to add, at the very least significant size, and hopefully toughness, in the last year. but these things take time and have to be done at the pace your payroll turnover allows.
One of the issues kind of hiding the change right now is that the players those guys are designed to replace are under contract for this season. JVR over Mac. McClement over Connolly. Ashton over Lombardi (all kind of guesses, but about right). So while some of the less tough players have to move down the depth chart, they won't be replaced with your more prototypical depth/tough guys until '13/'14.
On D, it's basically only Holzer for Schenn starting and I agree I'd like to see a bit more jam back there, although I liked Franson's use of size as the season went on last year. He doesn't go Phaneuf or McCabe on guys by any stretch nor will he drop 'em to protect someone else, but he was using his size effectively, IMO. If Holzer and Franson could counterpoint Gardiner and Liles, there's a decent balance in the back-end. Still, replacing Schenn with higher end top 4 defensive d-man (basically what Komi was hoped to be) would change the dynamic of how the D-corps looks from a toughness perspective.
I don't mean to be rude, but I find the toughness debate is usually a foil for complaining about the lack of a heavyweight or the fact that Kessel isn't Gilmour or Clark. Both are true, but for some it's the end of the world and for others it's meh.
It's not like there've been all these opportunities to add the Lucic/Hartnell's of the world and BB's passed on them. Or even the Foligno/Clowe or Clutterbuck/Torres kinds of useful guys (putting them together the way I did isn't quite right, but I think my point is vaguely understandable). Would we really be happier if BB had given one of the ludicrous 4.5m deals last offseason to a Leino, Umberger, or Ladd kind of guy?
I'd say there's a legit criticism that he went against his prior successes with team building to try and fit with Wilson's style and he deserves criticism for how that turned out, but there has been a concerted effort to add, at the very least significant size, and hopefully toughness, in the last year. but these things take time and have to be done at the pace your payroll turnover allows.
Biggs is NHL bound regardless of if he is lighting it up. Even if he does not become a 25g 50pts player he still has the size and ability to be a solid 3rd line grinder.
