Toggle sidebar

Leafs Goaltending Department

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Stephen

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
83,096
62,016
I thought I'd start this thread to spotlight an issue with the Toronto Maple Leafs that I've noticed for a long time but we've never really had one place to talk about it.

Whatever you think of the Leafs goaltending strength at the NHL level, it seems like the organizational machinery behind scouting, drafting/signing/acquiring and developing goalies at the ECHL and AHL level has been quite ineffective producing NHL viable goalies during this time. Compared to the detailed skills development and thinking, personnel and resources invested in other parts of the organization during the Shanaplan Era, you never hear too much about the goaltending department.

Since the Shanaplan Era started, we've drafted Joseph Woll, Ian Scott, Zachary Bouthillier and Artur Akhtyamov, so to be fair, not a lot of assets have been expended on the goalie department. Woll came through the college route, Scott has been derailed by injuries, Bouthillier likely doesn't have NHL potential and Akhyamov is a darkhorse in Russia, playing in their junior system. So even an optimist would have to file the best of this group under the long term project heading.

In terms of AHL and ECHL development, the Leafs system has produced barely 2 goalies since 2016. Garrett Sparks flamed out as an NHL backup, and Kasimir Kaskisuo aged out of the system and has continued his AHL career elsewhere with the Nashville organization. Antoine Bibeau was traded fairly early in his development.

So the question is, do we have a problem with amateur scouting? Do we have a problem setting aside more draft picks to restock the system with better goalie athletes? Do we have a goalie coaching problem with Steve Briere? Why are we unable to build our AHL goalies into serviceable NHL talent like Bill Ranford in LA or Mitch Korn in Washington/Islanders? Could this problem be impacting the quality of our NHL goaltending?

If there are any goalie experts among us it would be interesting to hear your thoughts!
Click to read more...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz and geo25
All the goalies drafted under the Shanahan regime are all quite young. With Woll being the oldest at 22, so it's still too early to say they're ineffective at producing nhl goalies.

That being said, the Leafs haven't developed a decent NHL goaltender since James Reimer, and Felix Potvin before that. So there might be some truth to that statement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ponder and The Cobra
Good topic. Good synopsis. Our inability to draft and develop a reliable goalie is concerning.

The last bona-fide stud and reliable goalie for us was Cujo in 2009. Since that time, we've played over 2 dozen goalies. Cujo wasn't even a product of our drafting and development.

Of course, we drafted Rask but we all know what happened there.

Not sure what its gonna take to fix this seeing as how we've had numerous GM's not address this....
 
Well, I know Mike Palmateer was in Leafs scouting for decades. Not sure if he is now, but it seems like one of those dusty departments no one has put a lot of effort into expanding or modernizing. Looking across the league, some teams are consistently great at producing goalies.
 
Stephen said:
I thought I'd start this thread to spotlight an issue with the Toronto Maple Leafs that I've noticed for a long time but we've never really had one place to talk about it.

Whatever you think of the Leafs goaltending strength at the NHL level, it seems like the organizational machinery behind scouting, drafting/signing/acquiring and developing goalies at the ECHL and AHL level has been quite ineffective producing NHL viable goalies during this time. Compared to the detailed skills development and thinking, personnel and resources invested in other parts of the organization during the Shanaplan Era, you never hear too much about the goaltending department.

Since the Shanaplan Era started, we've drafted Joseph Woll, Ian Scott, Zachary Bouthillier and Artur Akhtyamov, so to be fair, not a lot of assets have been expended on the goalie department. Woll came through the college route, Scott has been derailed by injuries, Bouthillier likely doesn't have NHL potential and Akhyamov is a darkhorse in Russia, playing in their junior system. So even an optimist would have to file the best of this group under the long term project heading.

In terms of AHL and ECHL development, the Leafs system has produced barely 2 goalies since 2016. Garrett Sparks flamed out as an NHL backup, and Kasimir Kaskisuo aged out of the system and has continued his AHL career elsewhere with the Nashville organization. Antoine Bibeau was traded fairly early in his development.

So the question is, do we have a problem with amateur scouting? Do we have a problem setting aside more draft picks to restock the system with better goalie athletes? Do we have a goalie coaching problem with Steve Briere? Why are we unable to build our AHL goalies into serviceable NHL talent like Bill Ranford in LA or Mitch Korn in Washington/Islanders? Could this problem be impacting the quality of our NHL goaltending?

If there are any goalie experts among us it would be interesting to hear your thoughts!
Click to expand...
do we have a problem? put away this 2016 talk

you answer this 1 question and the rest will come into clear focus

name the last starter we drafted/developed and they turned in a solid starter (hell,,i;m not even asking about a star) just a good ole starter that we could depend on for like 7 years.

would that be the cat? that was 30 effn years ago

let that sink in,,,,,,, 30 years and we have not created dependable tender
 
Goaltending is definitely a weird crapshoot to draft. It's really tough because I just don't know what to look for in a good prospect, since they come in all shapes and sizes. I was fairly high on Woll, simply because he was consistently good on a pretty bad Boston College team, while Scott just had one great year on a stacked Prince Albert squad after a whole bunch of shit (much harder to get a read).

Of course, Woll looked rough since going pro and is now in taxi squad hell, while Scott just can't stay healthy.

But yes, our goalie development and drafting has left much to be desired historically. We always tried addressing it through FA (CuJo, Belfour) and patchwork trades (Raycroft, toskala, Bernier). I figured that Freddy would be a stopgap and hopefully one of Woll/Scott would be ready to be in a tandem situation in the most ideal of circumstances. But at the same time, goalies do take a while to marinate in the minors, so I'm not ready to write anyone off. Hell, sometimes, you just need to find a random Binnington that comes out of nowhere to be the guy who can take you there. Other than NYR, I'd be hard pressed to find an organization that's never gone through goaltending development lulls.
 
Faltorvo said:
do we have a problem? put away this 2016 talk

you answer this 1 question and the rest will come into clear focus

name the last starter we drafted/developed and they turned in a solid starter (hell,,i;m not even asking about a star) just a good ole starter that we could depend on for like 7 years.
Click to expand...

Well JFJ, drafted Rask and Reimer in 2005 and 2006 but there's no use in talking about that or Burke's pursuit of Gustavsson, Rynnas and Scrivens because I'm not sure who the scouts would have been responsible for these successes and failures.

During this current management regime, not a lot of focus has been put on acquiring goalies or building them.
 
We've changed our department recently so that is hard to know. Steve Briere has been here since 2015-2016 and our goalie scout has now been hired as a Director of Goalie Personnel in Arizona.
 
I find we are not dedicated to pickingthe best goalie when available early in the draft. The glaring failure was not taking Hart when he was offered up on a platter.
All this goalie voodoo nonsense is bunk. Sometimes you have to plug your nose and dive in.
Potvin was our only in house homerun. Rask was.......but we know how that went.
Whether it's poor scouting or team philosophy it isn't working.
There is a guru that is about to shake free this year, his first name eludes me at the moment. They were discussing him on the Fan a couple of days ago. He has developed or righted more goalies than anyone else in the league.
He won't come cheap (no issue there) but will be highly sought after.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz, Saint Blue, Stigma and 2 others
How’s the guy we just got for Lehtonen? Never heard of him before any chance he gets the net even as a back up in the near future?
 
Swervin81 said:
Goaltending is definitely a weird crapshoot to draft. It's really tough because I just don't know what to look for in a good prospect, since they come in all shapes and sizes. I was fairly high on Woll, simply because he was consistently good on a pretty bad Boston College team, while Scott just had one great year on a stacked Prince Albert squad after a whole bunch of shit (much harder to get a read).

Of course, Woll looked rough since going pro and is now in taxi squad hell, while Scott just can't stay healthy.
Click to expand...

I don't think goalies are voodoo. It's a misunderstood science.

One amazing quote I'm paraphrasing now is Jarmo Kekekalainen talked about how CBJ looked for goalies who had the size and athleticism to develop a technical game but the compete level to make the second and third save. So it's a mix of having the right body type, the right systematic approach and the head for the game. We certainly saw that on display with Korpisalo and Merzlikins playing completely out of their minds last summer.

And while Connor Hellebuyck is fresh on our minds, I forget who the coach was who was working with him, but was credited with helping him rebuild his game to his Vezina caliber by helping him focus or something like that. If I can find it I'll share it.

Guys like Bill Ranford have developed a number of goalies for the LA Kings over the past decade, turning completely random free agent signings like Martin Jones and Cal Petersen into starting material, rehabbing Jack Campbell, etc.

So anyway, we don't find the right athletes and we don't seem to program them very well either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JKG33, willmma and The Cobra
Swervin81 said:
Other than NYR, I'd be hard pressed to find an organization that's never gone through goaltending development lulls.
Click to expand...

Montreal. They had a little lull in the late 90's after trading Roy, but they've been mostly rock solid at the position. Having Roy, Theodore, Huet, Price, and Halak all being good to amazing goaltenders for a time for the last 30+ years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Cobra
Hitch Slap said:
Imagine that the Leafs could of easily drafter Carter Hart instead of Yegor Korshkov.
Click to expand...
Would have been amazing for sure but years after each draft there’s always so many what if’s.... could have also taken Debrincat with that pick just to many late bloomers hard to tell who’s going to be legit or not on draft day
 
Hitch Slap said:
Imagine that the Leafs could of easily drafter Carter Hart instead of Yegor Korshkov.
Click to expand...

That 2016 draft stands out in my mind. I think Carter Hart, Tyler Parsons, Joseph Woll and Filip Gustavsson were all a cluster of 2nd/3rd round prospects and the Leafs just grabbed the one left on the shelf. (Sort of like when they drafted Bracco, Dzierkals and Timashov in 2015 all ahead of Kirill Kaprizov).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jimmy Firecracker and HandshakeLineRespect
91LeafsTavares91 said:
Montreal. They had a little lull in the late 90's after trading Roy, but they've been mostly rock solid at the position. Having Roy, Theodore, Huet, Price, and Halak all being good to amazing goaltenders for a time for the last 30+ years.
Click to expand...
we have not produced a starter since Felix

that was 30 effn years ago

this is NO LULL
 
  • Like
Reactions: baton elevated
The big mistake for me is letting Piero Greco go when he was here. Instead of letting him go to the Islanders we should have promoted him to the big club and let him take over our goaltending department from there.

If you look at the goaltenders that have played under him, even dating back to junior I don't think he has had a goaltending tandem put up less than top 5 numbers in any given season. Maybe once with Kitchener. Sure he had some talent in guys like John Gibson, but he also had a lot of guys that absolutely could not sustain their performance without his guidance (C.Gibson/Sparks/Bibeau etc..) and he was successful at all three levels (OHL/AHL/NHL).

If we ever go full bore with a goaltending department, he would be my guy to lead it. Mitch Korn gets a lot of the credit in New York with their two headed system so there would be an opportunity to pull him back I think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Cobra
Stephen said:
Well JFJ, drafted Rask and Reimer in 2005 and 2006 but there's no use in talking about that or Burke's pursuit of Gustavsson, Rynnas and Scrivens because I'm not sure who the scouts would have been responsible for these successes and failures.

During this current management regime, not a lot of focus has been put on acquiring goalies or building them.
Click to expand...

We've drafted 4 goalies in the past 5 drafts and will likely draft another one this year. I don't think drafting more goalies is really the solution.

This current regime has been in charge for going on 3 years. Even if we drafted a goalie, we wouldn't have developed one by now. Going forward, who really knows.

I think you break it down into 4 categories: Athleticism/Reflexes, Mental/Anticipation, Positioning, and Size. Out of those, I think positioning is the only thing you can really teach and develop with significant results... And literally every young goalie needs to work on their positioning to some degree. So target guys who definitely have the first two things and preferably has good size, but obviously is not a total disaster when it comes to positioning (although if they are constantly swimming even at lower levels, they probably are not having much success).

This year, that is Sebastian Cossa (and Wallstadt but that is not happening). If we really like him, we may need to spend our 1st round pick on him, but he would be the best goalie prospect we've had by far since Rask.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom