Leafs Core Beyond the 2013-14 - EDIT Retool or Blow it up?

[The Winter Soldier]

What I want to do, IS CLEARLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I think Shanny will do things the right way, I expect to see slow changes, people brought in, people let go. I would be shocked if Belza is retained for starters.

 

[Auston Matthews]

Lombardi under Leiweke once dealt 21-23 yr old young players J Johnson, B Schenn, and Simmonds and won the cup the following year.

Who says you cannot deal young players for quality players and win a cup. Richards and Carter just added to the core of Quick, Doughty, and Kopitar to make the Kings a contender.

Kadri, Gardiner, and I will say Phaneuf (whom I will use as the Johnson comparable) are not untouchable players. Nor should they be.

You just really hate Kadri and Gardiner dont you. Every post you are demanding for them to be traded, and dumping on how bad they are.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Can a core of Phaneuf, Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Clarkson, Bozak, Kadri get us a cup one day?

I don't think so, but there's no reason that some of those guys couldn't be a part of a winning team. Barring any offers that would clearly improve the team, I don't see any reason to let a guy like JVR or even Kessel go. Take the best guys from that group, subtract a couple, add in Rielly/Bernier and potentially Gardiner, along with whoever we pick up in future drafts and who knows?

I mean, winning a Cup is never a sure thing. Just ask the Blues, Sharks, Bruins, Pens, etc. The idea is to build a team that's in the mix every year, and hope that, at some point, it all comes together.

 

[Ratboy]

I don't think so, but there's no reason that some of those guys couldn't be a part of a winning team. Barring any offers that would clearly improve the team, I don't see any reason to let a guy like JVR or even Kessel go. Take the best guys from that group, subtract a couple, add in Rielly/Bernier and potentially Gardiner, along with whoever we pick up in future drafts and who knows?

I mean, winning a Cup is never a sure thing. Just ask the Blues, Sharks, Bruins, Pens, etc. The idea is to build a team that's in the mix every year, and hope that, at some point, it all comes together.

pretty much. get hot at the right time and you never know..

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You just really hate Kadri and Gardiner dont you. Every post you are demanding for them to be traded, and dumping on how bad they are.

I see them as means to improving the team nothing else If you disagree then disagree but leave my supposed feelings out of it, if LA can deal B Schenn, Simmonds, and Johnson and win a cup, trading Kadri and Gardiner can also help our team right?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't think so, but there's no reason that some of those guys couldn't be a part of a winning team. Barring any offers that would clearly improve the team, I don't see any reason to let a guy like JVR or even Kessel go. Take the best guys from that group, subtract a couple, add in Rielly/Bernier and potentially Gardiner, along with whoever we pick up in future drafts and who knows?

I mean, winning a Cup is never a sure thing. Just ask the Blues, Sharks, Bruins, Pens, etc. The idea is to build a team that's in the mix every year, and hope that, at some point, it all comes together.

I agree, Kessel, JVR, and Bozak can be supporting players like Kopitar, Brown are. We have Reilly, perhaps he can turn into our Doughty.

I like what LA did, they dealt 21-23 year old non core players like Schenn, Simmonds, and Johnson.

We have players on our roster of similar age that can fetch a return like LA got. I don't have all the answers, but one thing I do know.

A core of Lupul, Kadri, Clarkson, JVR, Kessel, and Bozak with Phaneuf will not win a Cup. It's a flawed group.

Perhaps shuffling the deck will do wonders as it did for LA.

 

[Auston Matthews]

I see them as means to improving the team nothing else If you disagree then disagree but leave my supposed feelings out of it, if LA can deal B Schenn, Simmonds, and Johnson and win a cup, trading Kadri and Gardiner can also help our team right?

Trade Kadri and Gardiner for what? A first round pick?

 

[Faltorvo]

pretty much. get hot at the right time and you never know..

been waiting for 41 years for that rare run.

hell, I have not even seen them in the effen finals.

I would be sitting here thrilled if we had seguin and Hamilton and what drafted players from trades made from the guys shipped out to get Homophobic Sluroof 7m.

kessel and his great 8?

if we took it slow are we stuck with liles/gleason?

clarktard?

mr 3/4 season lupul?

they have royally fckd this up and it started with Burke the fckn a$$hat.

 

[Ratboy]

been waiting for 41 years for that rare run.

hell, I have not even seen them in the effen finals.

I would be sitting here thrilled if we had seguin and Hamilton and what drafted players from trades made from the guys shipped out to get Homophobic Sluroof 7m.

kessel and his great 8?

if we took it slow are we stuck with liles/gleason?

clarktard?

mr 3/4 season lupul?

they have royally fckd this up and it started with Burke the fckn a$$hat.

im not saying this is the group to do it. hell, if fraser didnt puss out and made a call maybe things would be different.

that was the year we had the best shot imo.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Trade Kadri and Gardiner for what? A first round pick?

Similar aged Players or high quality picks.

I would throw in Phaneuf too with Kadri and Gardiner.

In a year or 2 Rielly will be ahead of Dion anyway, and it will be his team not Dion's to lead. Morgan is going to be a heck of a leader one day.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

pretty much. get hot at the right time and you never know..

Look at how terrible the Ducks were a couple of years back. Now, after a coaching change, a bit of a youth movement with guys like Etem/Smith-Pelly/Lindholm/etc. and one significant move involving Bobby Ryan, they look like an entirely different team and perhaps even a Cup contender.

I think if we overhaul the coaching staff, rid ourselves of this backwards-assed mentality regarding puck possession, let most of these pending UFAs go, fill their spots with younger players like Ashton, D'Amigo, Holland, etc., ride next season out, begin working guys like Granberg, Percy and Leivo and the like into the lineup and add what we can through the draft, we may begin to see the tide turn sooner rather than later.

I agree, Kessel, JVR, and Bozak can be supporting players like Kopitar, Brown are. We have Reilly, perhaps he can turn into our Doughty.

I like what LA did, they dealt 21-23 year old non core players like Schenn, Simmonds, and Johnson.

We have players on our roster of similar age that can fetch a return like LA got. I don't have all the answers, but one thing I do know.

A core of Lupul, Kadri, Clarkson, JVR, Kessel, and Bozak with Phaneuf will not win a Cup. It's a flawed group.

Perhaps shuffling the deck will do wonders as it did for LA.

Yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to a Bobby Ryan-type move if it made sense for us, especially if it involved an older guy like Lupul or Phaneuf (obviously we wouldn't be expecting as quality a return for Lupul, or arguably Phaneuf, but something similarly future-oriented), but more than anything else I think, a) the coaching staff needs to go, and b) we need to give it a rest with these short-sighted UFA signings, stop throwing picks away like candy and get a proper youth movement going. It may come together faster than we expected, or it may take a little longer than we hoped, but as long as we maintain a clear vision and stay the course, we'll be in good shape.

....now let's all just pray to God that King Shanahan feels the same way.

 

[dimi78]

For those that fear or do not embrace the notion of tank, reboot or take a step back to improve our draft position for next season.

I want to ask 4 very simple questions.

Who are the last 5 UFAs (and in what year) did we ink, that you would call," team altering"?

Name the last 5 draftees (and in what year) we have selected outside the top 7 that you would deem (special,a steal )

Name the players (and what year) we have picked top 7 that are busts.

Name 3 players (and what year)drafted by other teams in the top 7 with draft slots we traded away?



When you finish your lists, you will see why some embrace the high draft slots as the top priority over the others.

Let me ask you and just about everybody here that's gone on a tirade... When has there been a cup won cause of one player?

It's player this & player that when will you guys start talking TEAM and focus on what's wrong with how the TEAM PLAYS. It's never about individual talent. Only the goalie holds such impact in this game of hockey. Cups aren't won at the draft, tank add special player. That's called hype... Don't believe in hype believe in quality TEAM HOCKEY... Cups are won by establishing a winning formula in TEAM HOCKEY and building toward that.

Cups are won by having an organization IDENTITY & sticking to it with the right coach behind the bench that gets the most out of his group & a #1 goalie.... Everything else is about TEAM that's why no hockey player even Gretzky in his day are untouchable. Edmonton's last CUP came after they traded the greatest player of all time for heaven's sake so why are we constantly thinking that cups are won cause of star high end players you've tanked to get when there's no guaranty you even end up with a hero on ice in the first place? It's not them that will make a team winners it's the team they're on and how they play collectively as a group. No one player is greater than the team.

The draft is and always will be a crapshoot . Organizational development is how you bear fruit from the draft that's why it's called draft & develop... No team puts all it's fruits into the draft of 17, 18, 19 year old kids that are freshly out of there mothers wombs and think they're building a championship team. You build by all means available, Draft & develop, trades and UFA. Success has to come from ALL 3 tools, not one is more important than the other. All 3 require successes.

This team took a major identity crisis with the firing of Wilson & the hiring of Carlyle. You can talk tank, draft, trades, UFA's players this & players that. The first questions Shannahan needs to ask his management team is what's the identity of this team? What Type of team are we looking to build and from the current better players we have are they suitable to thrive under this organizational identity. Then you ask does this head coach fall in lines with this program or not... Carlyle was trying to make apple juice out of oranges with the way he micromanaged the $hit out of this team. The team hockey these past 2 years in spite of making the playoffs last year was by far the worst team hockey I've seen in a long, long time because of this. Individually the talent of this team is as good as it ever has and it's never been this young. Collectively the type of hockey being played isn't a mesh so what's wrong with the Leafs when the last thing Carlyle can b!tch and moan about is goaltending? what do they say show me a good goalie and I'll show you a good coach?

It's really simple retool or rebuild is irrelevant because if your a properly run organization like Detroit, Boston, San Jose, LA your constantly doing both and active by any means you could improve your team both for the now and the future

 

[achtungbaby]

Let me ask you and just about everybody here that's gone on a tirade... When has there been a cup won cause of one player?

It's player this & player that when will you guys start talking TEAM and focus on what's wrong with how the TEAM PLAYS. It's never about individual talent. Only the goalie holds such impact in this game of hockey. Cups aren't won at the draft, tank add special player. That's called hype... Don't believe in hype believe in quality TEAM HOCKEY... Cups are won by establishing a winning formula in TEAM HOCKEY and building toward that.

Cups are won by having an organization IDENTITY & sticking to it with the right coach behind the bench that gets the most out of his group & a #1 goalie.... Everything else is about TEAM that's why no hockey player even Gretzky in his day are untouchable. Edmonton's last CUP came after they traded the greatest player of all time for heaven's sake so why are we constantly thinking that cups are won cause of star high end players you've tanked to get when there's no guaranty you even end up with a hero on ice in the first place? It's not them that will make a team winners it's the team they're on and how they play collectively as a group. No one player is greater than the team.

The draft is and always will be a crapshoot . Organizational development is how you bear fruit from the draft that's why it's called draft & develop... No team puts all it's fruits into the draft of 17, 18, 19 year old kids that are freshly out of there mothers wombs and think they're building a championship team. You build by all means available, Draft & develop, trades and UFA. Success has to come from ALL 3 tools, not one is more important than the other. All 3 require successes.

This team took a major identity crisis with the firing of Wilson & the hiring of Carlyle. You can talk tank, draft, trades, UFA's players this & players that. The first questions Shannahan needs to ask his management team is what's the identity of this team? What Type of team are we looking to build and from the current better players we have are they suitable to thrive under this organizational identity. Then you ask does this head coach fall in lines with this program or not... Carlyle was trying to make apple juice out of oranges with the way he micromanaged the $hit out of this team. The team hockey these past 2 years in spite of making the playoffs last year was by far the worst team hockey I've seen in a long, long time because of this. Individually the talent of this team is as good as it ever has and it's never been this young. Collectively the type of hockey being played isn't a mesh so what's wrong with the Leafs when the last thing Carlyle can b!tch and moan about is goaltending? what do they say show me a good goalie and I'll show you a good coach?

It's really simple retool or rebuild is irrelevant because if your a properly run organization like Detroit, Boston, San Jose, LA your constantly doing both and active by any means you could improve your team both for the now and the future

No team has ever lost a cup because of one player. The Leafs have never been in danger of that so let's keep it real here. You ultimately bring it down to the fact that we're NOT a properly run organization.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Or is it by design?

The Burke model is garbage. Even the Kessel trade was mistimed.They always think they are just one move away. You trade our vets now as this team isn't even close. You keep the young guys and give them a real coach. This is one garabge franchise and it is time to face up to it. Bring in quality or draft it but don't pretend. Phaneuff,Gleason,Clarkson,Bozak,Lupul and maybe even Kessel have all played as well as they can play and are now in decline.

Rebuild or expect the same, we aren't even close.

 

[Faltorvo]

Let me ask you and just about everybody here that's gone on a tirade... When has there been a cup won cause of one player?

It's player this & player that when will you guys start talking TEAM and focus on what's wrong with how the TEAM PLAYS. It's never about individual talent. Only the goalie holds such impact in this game of hockey. Cups aren't won at the draft, tank add special player. That's called hype... Don't believe in hype believe in quality TEAM HOCKEY... Cups are won by establishing a winning formula in TEAM HOCKEY and building toward that.

Cups are won by having an organization IDENTITY & sticking to it with the right coach behind the bench that gets the most out of his group & a #1 goalie.... Everything else is about TEAM that's why no hockey player even Gretzky in his day are untouchable. Edmonton's last CUP came after they traded the greatest player of all time for heaven's sake so why are we constantly thinking that cups are won cause of star high end players you've tanked to get when there's no guaranty you even end up with a hero on ice in the first place? It's not them that will make a team winners it's the team they're on and how they play collectively as a group. No one player is greater than the team.

The draft is and always will be a crapshoot . Organizational development is how you bear fruit from the draft that's why it's called draft & develop... No team puts all it's fruits into the draft of 17, 18, 19 year old kids that are freshly out of there mothers wombs and think they're building a championship team. You build by all means available, Draft & develop, trades and UFA. Success has to come from ALL 3 tools, not one is more important than the other. All 3 require successes.

This team took a major identity crisis with the firing of Wilson & the hiring of Carlyle. You can talk tank, draft, trades, UFA's players this & players that. The first questions Shannahan needs to ask his management team is what's the identity of this team? What Type of team are we looking to build and from the current better players we have are they suitable to thrive under this organizational identity. Then you ask does this head coach fall in lines with this program or not... Carlyle was trying to make apple juice out of oranges with the way he micromanaged the $hit out of this team. The team hockey these past 2 years in spite of making the playoffs last year was by far the worst team hockey I've seen in a long, long time because of this. Individually the talent of this team is as good as it ever has and it's never been this young. Collectively the type of hockey being played isn't a mesh so what's wrong with the Leafs when the last thing Carlyle can b!tch and moan about is goaltending? what do they say show me a good goalie and I'll show you a good coach?

It's really simple retool or rebuild is irrelevant because if your a properly run organization like Detroit, Boston, San Jose, LA your constantly doing both and active by any means you could improve your team both for the now and the future

What I bolded dimi is that answer to your main point.

I do not believe this is a properly run organisation and I firmly believe this dysfunction has for a very long time started with ownership and what their mandate tree looks like.

As for the 3 ways to add players.

UFAs? , what is it now ,16/17 YEARS since we inked Cujo , the last and only ufa I would say made any real tangible difference here.

Trades? I can think of only 1 in a very long time that has me thinking , oh ya perfect (berny) trades tend to end up as a loss or a sideways move.

Drafting , well lets split this into 2 parts since I'm a diehard tanker.

All slots outside of the "prime territory" ,our track record of picks and trading away of those slots is pathetic at best.

Now prime territory draft slots, this is the only area where the organisation has shown me any form of proficiency as of late.

As for "the team" , burke accelerated the clock on when this all needs to fall together , the kessel/ dion trades pretty much sealed that fate.

What I see is a team that is soft,lazy, not cohesive at all , something direly wrong in the room.

My forecast with this core is, nothing good will come of it.

So I say fall back, sell off, and regroup. Reset the clock around guys of the age like berny,jvr,kadri,MR,


So seeing that I have 0 faith in free agency , little faith in trades and only mild faith in none prime draft slots (the few we tend to ever have) , that leaves me with the only faith/trust that they have actually earned as of late and thats in prime draft slots.


And I frankly think it's a$$ backwards to UFA or trade large till you have drafted your core. It's really the only reliable way to align your player timelines.

For how "thin" this organisation was when BB took over , there was no justification for him to try and rush this process, save for the desires of ownership.

Now here we sit after exhausting both our compliance buyouts , cap maxed , back to shipping draft slots out like candy and holding onto UFAs for the all important "just get us into the playoffs" leading to asset value bleeding and for what? to finish 8th last?

Right back to where this all started when we drafted Luke Schenn. Save for berny and gards, we have NOTHING on this roster worth a mention that did not come from our top draft slots one way or the other.

JVR,Kadri,Kessel (two slots),MR,Freddy gouch.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No team has ever lost a cup because of one player. The Leafs have never been in danger of that so let's keep it real here. You ultimately bring it down to the fact that we're NOT a properly run organization.

Ge does but d78 also brings up some good points

I do think Burke tried to create an identity even do he failed to do so unless being weak and choke is regarded as an identity.

Most likely Burke thought the Ufa market would be much better then it turned out to be. With the lower ufa age and a salary cap he might have had a point as well. But the good teams with the good players did something Brian was against and that was handing out long term deals to both pay the players what they wanted but also stay competitive with cap room.

Burkes original idea was probably to add Kessel, elite goal scorer and surround him with toughness and create a positive buzz around the team so that the next class of ufa would look at Toronto and both see some ine they could play with in Kessel and perhaps even Kadri. But also see a group if hardworkers to give protection and carry the heavy load. Well in theory it might have worked but in reality the opposite happened.

Time to rebuild so we can get our own core guys ans stop dreaming about others.

 

[Faltorvo]

Ge does but d78 also brings up some good points

I do think Burke tried to create an identity even do he failed to do so unless being weak and choke is regarded as an identity.

Most likely Burke thought the Ufa market would be much better then it turned out to be. With the lower ufa age and a salary cap he might have had a point as well. But the good teams with the good players did something Brian was against and that was handing out long term deals to both pay the players what they wanted but also stay competitive with cap room.

Burkes original idea was probably to add Kessel, elite goal scorer and surround him with toughness and create a positive buzz around the team so that the next class of ufa would look at Toronto and both see some ine they could play with in Kessel and perhaps even Kadri. But also see a group if hardworkers to give protection and carry the heavy load. Well in theory it might have worked but in reality the opposite happened.

Time to rebuild so we can get our own core guys ans stop dreaming about others.

I honestly believe there was something with the Kessel deal and the Sedin twins due to turn UFA.

My gut tells me that he really forecasted a #1 line of

Sedin/sedin/kessel

 

[JackJ]

The Burke model is garbage. Even the Kessel trade was mistimed.They always think they are just one move away. You trade our vets now as this team isn't even close. You keep the young guys and give them a real coach. This is one garabge franchise and it is time to face up to it. Bring in quality or draft it but don't pretend. Phaneuff,Gleason,Clarkson,Bozak,Lupul and maybe even Kessel have all played as well as they can play and are now in decline.

Rebuild or expect the same, we aren't even close.

 

[leafs in five]

Had to chuckle, this team has not been a winner since the Quinn years.

check your post history i guess then

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I honestly believe there was something with the Kessel deal and the Sedin twins due to turn UFA.

My gut tells me that he really forecasted a #1 line of

Sedin/sedin/kessel

It was something there. I even tried to tap them up but I dont know what happened there. He was not at least fined for it.

And Burke was not alone in thinking this way, I reckon a lot of people thought a franchise player or two would hit the free market every season meaning other teams could make quicker rebuilds. It was a risk he took and it backfired.

He then misjudged the players he did get from FA. Beauchemin was some one he knew about since their time in Anaheim so he should have known that he was a great partner to Pronger since he could eat a lot of ice time. But perhaps not some one who is particularly great as the main guy on a paring. Same goes with Komisarek who looked great when partnered with Markov but again not great when asked to be the main guy.
He lured Wallin to come from Sweden, perhaps hoping he would become Torontos version of Pahlsson, similar type of players. And brining Wallin also meant Gus could easily be persuaded to come over. And I dont blame him for that. Being from Karlstad I had seen first hand what an impressive goalie Gus could be, Burke was not wrong in going after him. But he was wrong in thinking Gus with the other additions would some how make us better then the team that finished 7th last the previous season. And thus he was wrong in trading away 2 first round picks and a 2nd round pick when top end talent was something we really needed.
And it was not just those deals, it was the deals he had to make to get back our 2nd round pick since he wanted to use the offersheet as a threat towards Boston. He then paid one more 1st rounder then he had to do had he offersheeted Kessel.

 

[Faltorvo]

It was something there. I even tried to tap them up but I dont know what happened there. He was not at least fined for it.

And Burke was not alone in thinking this way, I reckon a lot of people thought a franchise player or two would hit the free market every season meaning other teams could make quicker rebuilds. It was a risk he took and it backfired.

He then misjudged the players he did get from FA. Beauchemin was some one he knew about since their time in Anaheim so he should have known that he was a great partner to Pronger since he could eat a lot of ice time. But perhaps not some one who is particularly great as the main guy on a paring. Same goes with Komisarek who looked great when partnered with Markov but again not great when asked to be the main guy.
He lured Wallin to come from Sweden, perhaps hoping he would become Torontos version of Pahlsson, similar type of players. And brining Wallin also meant Gus could easily be persuaded to come over. And I dont blame him for that. Being from Karlstad I had seen first hand what an impressive goalie Gus could be, Burke was not wrong in going after him. But he was wrong in thinking Gus with the other additions would some how make us better then the team that finished 7th last the previous season. And thus he was wrong in trading away 2 first round picks and a 2nd round pick when top end talent was something we really needed.
And it was not just those deals, it was the deals he had to make to get back our 2nd round pick since he wanted to use the offersheet as a threat towards Boston. He then paid one more 1st rounder then he had to do had he offersheeted Kessel.

I agree with everything in this post.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I agree with everything in this post.

And I usually agree with your posts. Great minds eh

 

[jmart21]

The core: blow it up or re-tool?

Neither. Add to it.

It's not like this team is a San Jose, with a fully built roster that just can't get it done. This is a team that; although several major pieces are already in place (No1 G, Elite FWD, Top pair D), still has holes. It takes time to put a roster together. If Nonis can bring in players to improve our weaknesses (well rounded top 4 D, another 2-way C, veteran leadership support) we can continue to improve.

 

[613Leafer]

If we did sell off Kessel/Phaneuf/Lupul/Franson/Reimer/Bozak... Its not even like we'd be even remotely starting from scratch.

When the Islanders started their rebuild, when Edmonton started theirs, when we started ours in 2008, etc. Did they have Rielly/Bernier/JVR/Kadri/Gardiner/etc calibre young pieces on the roster? Did they get the trade returns you would get from us selling the above players?

I bet if we sold off those 6 guys, we'd be just as good as we are now within two years (a playoff bubble team), except we'd have way more capspace/contract flexibility, we'd be a younger team, and we'd have a deeper farm system.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

The core: blow it up or re-tool?

Neither. Add to it.

It's not like this team is a San Jose, with a fully built roster that just can't get it done. This is a team that; although several major pieces are already in place (No1 G, Elite FWD, Top pair D), still has holes. It takes time to put a roster together. If Nonis can bring in players to improve our weaknesses (well rounded top 4 D, another 2-way C, veteran leadership support) we can continue to improve.

Oh it is that easy? We just need to add to the team and get better? And how many years will it take until all the pieces are in place and will anyone of the current core still be in their prime by then? And financially how does it work considering Kessel + Phaneuf + Clarkson + Lupol + Gleason + Bozak (the current veterans and leaders) will eat up $34m of the cap next season. That is 6 players and half the cap wasted. Why not resign Kulemin and Bolland to get those veteran 2-way guys. Can throw away another $8-9m on those guys or do you think other players of similar quality would sign in Toronto for less?

We need to blow this team up, trade and buy out what is needed to rid the club of the previous GM´s mistakes and move forward with a young lottery team (that would mean moving down a spot or two in the standings but if fans can stomach watching a veteran team with little room for improvement finish in the bottom 10 then they sure should be able to handle a team with a core of players 18-23 finishing in the bottom 5).