Leafs cap question

[Space umpire]

Not (even a little) a Leaf fan but I have a question for those of you who are.
Cap friendly has TML about 2.85 mill over the cap with a 23 man roster.
Kick Gaudette’s 750k out and it’s 2.1m
With JT and Lilly missing some time but not even close to using LTIR it leaves them with 20 healthy bodies and still 2.1m over.
How does that get resolved?

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[notbias]

Not (even a little) a Leaf fan but I have a question for those of you who are.
Cap friendly has TML about 2.85 mill over the cap with a 23 man roster.
Kick Gaudette’s 750k out and it’s 2.1m
With JT and Lilly missing some time but not even close to using LTIR it leaves them with 20 healthy bodies and still 2.1m over.
How does that get resolved?

Pretty sure they are ~1.3 over with a 21 man roster... probably gets solved with a trade of Holl honestly. And then they can carry someone at league min. and have 21 skaters.

Someone will probably correct me, but I think it's the most likely scenario and the math is right.

 

[Space umpire]

Pretty sure they are ~1.3 over with a 21 man roster... probably gets solved with a trade of Holl honestly. And then they can carry someone at league min. and have 21 skaters.

Someone will probably correct me, but I think it's the most likely scenario and the math is right.

Cap Friendly shows them $2,893,116 over with 23 players
Gaudette makes $750k, lose that and with the 2 non LTIR injuries they have 22 but only 20 healthy while still about 2.143,116 over the cap.
Hence my question

 

[Leaf Fans]

Cap Friendly shows them $2,893,116 over with 23 players
Gaudette makes $750k, lose that and with the 2 non LTIR injuries they have 22 but only 20 healthy while still about 2.143,116 over the cap.
Hence my question

I don't know how they will solve it, but they will by opening night. Trade, waivers or LTIR are my guesses.

 

[notbias]

Cap Friendly shows them $2,893,116 over with 23 players
Gaudette makes $750k, lose that and with the 2 non LTIR injuries they have 22 but only 20 healthy while still about 2.143,116 over the cap.
Hence my question

As I said, they likely trade Holl, but they are close to 1.2 million over with a 21-man roster.

 

[Mess]

Cap Friendly shows them $2,893,116 over with 23 players
Gaudette makes $750k, lose that and with the 2 non LTIR injuries they have 22 but only 20 healthy while still about 2.143,116 over the cap.
Hence my question

The reason Cap friendly is showing 23 players because of the injuries.

Take a play like Tavares, who is expected to miss the start to the regular season ... Well if you don't place a player on LTIR then you don't get any Cap relief and as such both JT and his replacement player would both count against the cap simultaneously. Now potentially rinse and repeat for Liljegren and Envall etc and suddenly 23 players because of the need to dress 20 healthy players and also carry the injured ones against the Cap.

To get a player like Gaudette off the cap hit you would need to place him on waivers or carry him on the NHL roster.

Leafs might not have any choice but to place players on LTIR like Engvall and Liljegren to get the early cap relief because while on LTIR the replacement player essentially overlaps the Cap hit of the injured one if he make equal or less. The downside is that it guarantees those player miss 10 games essentially as per LTIR rules.

 

[Stephen]

My understanding of LTIR may be off here. But if Jake Muzzin wasn't healthy to start the year and went on LTIR for 20x games, that would represent 25% of the season and $1.4 million of Sandin's money would represent $5.6 million of Muzzin's salary. Does that get us one foot out out of cap jail?

 

[Mess]

My understanding of LTIR may be off here. But if Jake Muzzin wasn't healthy to start the year and went on LTIR for 20x games, that would represent 25% of the season and $1.4 million of Sandin's money would represent $5.6 million of Muzzin's salary. Does that get us one foot out out of cap jail?

Essentially correct for ease of understanding in terms of cap relief, however LTIR re-reimbursements are calculated on a per day basis regardless if the team plays or not.. Its calculated on number of days in the total season from day #1 (October ?? to game #80) so the Math is done on Contract AAV $$ / total games in season while that player is on LTIR.

So if a player missed 30 days (game or not) Leafs would get a daily re-reimbursement of 30 / 200 games (estimate based on last year) at his AAV divided evenly for all games in a season.

Here is Jake Muzin based on last year..

There was a total of 200 days in the full season ..He missed 41 days and so his full $5.625 Salary only cost the Leafs 4.5 mil = LTIR re-reimbursement of $1.153 mil cap to be applied to replacement p;layers.

Or for math purposes.

$5.625 mil AAV / 200 days in a season = $ 28,125 per day and since he missed 41 days = $1.153,125 re-reimbursement. So that 1.153 mil could then be used for another healthy player and be cap compliant.

A team can legally overspend the Hard Cap Ceiling by the amount of the re-reimbursement amount.

 

[Stephen]

Essentially correct for ease of understanding in terms of cap relief, however LTIR re-reimbursements are calculated on a per day basis regardless if the team plays or not.. Its calculated on number of days in the total season from day #1 (October ?? to game #80) so the Math is done on Contract AAV $$ / total games in season while that player is on LTIR.

So if a player missed 30 days (game or not) Leafs would get a daily re-imbusement of 30 / 200 games (estimate based on last year) at his AAV divided evenly for all games in a season.

So basically if Tavares were to miss 30 days of the season on LTIR we would save $2.275 million in cap. And if Muzzin were to miss 2 months or so we would save another $2.275.

 

[trellaine201]

Then how we will fit Chychrun LMAO

 

[zeke]

Not (even a little) a Leaf fan but I have a question for those of you who are.
Cap friendly has TML about 2.85 mill over the cap with a 23 man roster.
Kick Gaudette’s 750k out and it’s 2.1m
With JT and Lilly missing some time but not even close to using LTIR it leaves them with 20 healthy bodies and still 2.1m over.
How does that get resolved?

Holl trade is the easiest .

 

[zeke]

So basically if Tavares were to miss 30 days of the season on LTIR we would save $2.275 million in cap. And if Muzzin were to miss 2 months or so we would save another $2.275.

No. Mess is entirely wrong.

LTIR only gives you space for the time a player is on LTIR. There is no accrual. When the roster is healthy you still need to get rid of the extra salary somehow, no matter how long anyone is on ltir.

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Holl trade is the easiest .

View attachment 589740

I'd prefer Kerfoot. I think we have the center depth to wait for Tavares' return. Jankrok, Kampf, Engvall and Holmberg should hold the line. Meanwhile, Benn and Mete don't match up to Holl.

 

[zeke]

I'd prefer Kerfoot. I think we have the center depth to wait for Tavares' return. Jankrok, Kampf, and Holmberg should hold the line. Meanwhile, Benn and Mete don't match up to Holl.

The play of the young forwards in camp so far make that pretty interesting for sure.

I still don't see us carrying extra caphit on an extra Dman but maybe we do.

 

[Mess]

So basically if Tavares were to miss 30 days of the season on LTIR we would save $2.275 million in cap. And if Muzzin were to miss 2 months or so we would save another $2.275.

If the full season is based on the same 200 days as last year (from opening day to last day of regular season) then Jake Muzzin at $5.625 mil AAV / 200 days in a season = $ 28,125 per day

So last year every day Muzzin was active it cost the Leafs @ $28,125 (Every player works the same way its not his full yearly salary but rather a daily rate X number of days in season accumulated daily).

Simply multiply by the number of days on LTIR to figure out the cap savings while on LTIR.

If Muzzin would miss 2 months on LTIR ( or 60 days) at a rate of $28,125 daily X 60 days = $1,687,500 (up to could be applied to his replacement).

Essentially if Muzz were to miss 60 days on LTIR a player like Sandin full yearly $1,400,000 would be covered under the ceiling of the hard cap of $82,500,000, with the LTIR total appearing above the Hard cap line.

 

[zeke]

It's like he's actively trying to misinform people.

 

[LeafEgo]

Holl trade is the easiest .

View attachment 589740

Nice one. I thought a Holl move meant a 20 man roster and assumed it would be Kerfoot.

Doesn't leave much flexibility but looking now we collected quite a few absolute minimum contracts with Benn, Mete, Malgin, and Gaudette - probably running the same math.

Given we are not too worried about the regular season, it could still be a Kerfoot if they want more breathing room with 800k+ call ups, focusing on the trade deadline and eventual playoff roster.

 

[Space umpire]

If the full season is based on the same 200 days as last year (from opening day to last day of regular season) then Jake Muzzin at $5.625 mil AAV / 200 days in a season = $ 28,125 per day

So last year every day Muzzin was active it cost the Leafs @ $28,125 (Every player works the same way its not his full yearly salary but rather a daily rate X number of days in season accumulated daily).

Simply multiply by the number of days on LTIR to figure out the cap savings while on LTIR.

If Muzzin would miss 2 months on LTIR ( or 60 days) at a rate of $28,125 daily X 60 days = $1,687,500 (up to could be applied to his replacement).

Essentially if Muzz were to miss 60 days on LTIR a player like Sandin full yearly $1,400,000 would be covered under the ceiling of the hard cap of $82,500,000, with the LTIR total appearing above the Hard cap line.

This is wrong. The money “moved” to LTIR can only be used while the player is on LTIR. You can’t save some to use later in the year.
Once Muzzin returns his cap hit and Sandin’s cap hit both count.
You could pay Muzzin’s replacement up to $1,687,500 over the period Muzzin is out. Once he returns any unused LTIR goes away.

 

[Space umpire]

Note*
You do NOT accrue cap space by using LTIR.
You are permitted to exceed the cap by up to the players salary while he is on LTIR.

 

[ACC1224]

Will they need to make a trade before the season starts or does the 20 man roster make them complaint?

 

[The Iceman]

Our aces in the hole are Sandin-Lily and Gio signed for the next 2 years and counting $3.6 against the cap.
Half our D for $3.6 and we are still up against it.
OOOOOF

 

[notbias]

Our aces in the hole are Sandin-Lily and Gio signed for the next 2 years and counting $3.6 against the cap.
Half our D for $3.6 and we are still up against it.
OOOOOF

it's cause we have like 90% of our team signed and the cap hasn't moved, this has been the case for a while.

Not sure this is a bad thing, we have cap flexibility, just have to trade good contracts and players.

Our D is already set for next year, our forwards are also almost set.

 

[zeke]

Will they need to make a trade before the season starts or does the 20 man roster make them complaint?

Looks like they need to make a trade to me.

Only way they avoid it is putting someone on LTIR.....but that just delays the issue because they'll have to make a trade when the player comes off LTIR anyways.

 

[Mess]

This is wrong. The money “moved” to LTIR can only be used while the player is on LTIR. You can’t save some to use later in the year.
Once Muzzin returns his cap hit and Sandin’s cap hit both count.
You could pay Muzzin’s replacement up to $1,687,500 over the period Muzzin is out. Once he returns any unused LTIR goes away.

That is what I was attempting to suggest., which I guess wasn't clear from that example.

While a player is on LTIR the team is eligible for a cap re-reimbursement per day on IR, and that gets applied to the healthy replacement player who can earn up to the same amount or less than the injured player, and then essentially those players salaries overlap for cap management purposes. If in this above scenario if Muzzin were to miss 60 days on LTIR than Leafs would have up to that amount of accrued LTIR to re-invest in a healthy roster player during that time on LTIR for those 60 days.

If a player is only on short term IR then the team is allowed to exceed the 23 max team player limit, but both the injured and healthy replacement player would both count against the teams annual salary cap upper limit, where on LTIR those two players overlap for cap calculations,

Some fans are getting confused trying to go with a 20 p;layer roster to be cap compliant for the Leafs, but if John Tavares & Pierre Engvall and Tim Liljegren who are all currently injured and if they began in short-term IR (not LTIR) then you only have 17 healthy players, and you would need to add +3 more healthy players to replace them = roster size of 23 not 20 players, & all 23 players of those players would count against the teams salary cap and need to fit below the upper limit of $82.5. Leafs growing list of injuries are complicating the Leafs salary cap further with a team already exceeding the upper limit at present.

That is why I believe Leafs likely intend to place Engvall and Liljegren on LTIR to start the year meaning they can be replaced with healthy players making equal or less AAV, but will also then be forced to miss 10 games or the first month essentially.

 

[Fogelhund]

It's like he's actively trying to misinform people.

That is what I was attempting to suggest., which I guess wasn't clear from that example.

While a player is on LTIR the team is eligible for a cap re-reimbursement per day on IR, and that gets applied to the healthy replacement player who can earn up to the same amount or less than the injured player, and then essentially those players salaries overlap for cap management purposes. If in this above scenario if Muzzin were to miss 60 days on LTIR than Leafs would have up to that amount of accrued LTIR to re-invest in a healthy roster player during that time on LTIR for those 60 days.

If a player is only on short term IR then the team is allowed to exceed the 23 max team player limit, but both the injured and healthy replacement player would both count against the teams annual salary cap upper limit, where on LTIR those two players overlap for cap calculations,

Some fans are getting confused trying to go with a 20 p;layer roster to be cap compliant for the Leafs, but if John Tavares & Pierre Engvall and Tim Liljegren who are all currently injured and if they began in short-term IR (not LTIR) then you only have 17 healthy players, and you would need to add +3 more healthy players to replace them = roster size of 23 not 20 players, & all 23 players of those players would count against the teams salary cap and need to fit below the upper limit of $82.5. Leafs growing list of injuries are complicating the Leafs salary cap further with a team already exceeding the upper limit at present.

That is why I believe Leafs likely intend to place Engvall and Liljegren on LTIR to start the year meaning they can be replaced with healthy players making equal or less AAV, but will also then be forced to miss 10 games or the first month essentially.

No, Mess, that's not how this works.