LD Bowen Byram - Vancouver Giants, WHL (2019, 4th, COL)

[57special]

Byrams sitting at #4 for me rn. Ahead of Dach but behind Hughes/Kakko and Turcotte.

Oil need an elite 4th forward but a Byram - Bouchard top pairing for the future would be incredible.

Scoring from the back end works, too. So does moving the puck out of your Dzone quickly and competently. Forwards love it when they can get the puck in stride heading out of their zone.

EDM seems to be about the last team that should worry about getting a C. RHD, or a quality forward ( regardless of position) should be their aim at the draft. They've got 3 above average C's already, should they need them.

 

[Zaddy]

I would watch some more recent games of Byram. He's improved a ton and looks a lot better than the start of the season.

The one thing I would say is that I don't think he needs to have an elite talent to become a great defenseman. I don't see why he can't become a Pietrangelo type.

Some of these takes are going to look really bad in a few years' time. Playing his best hockey of the season but we're reading opinions formed in November...

Ok, so I just watched a shift-by-shift on him from earlier this month. I don't see any changes in his game. If anything I like him even less than I did before. His skating is honestly really bad. Because of how slow he is to get to loose pucks the forecheckers close in on him so fast. Now that wouldn't be so bad if he was quick to make decisions and move the puck in those situations, but he isn't. He's really indecisive with the puck on his stick in the defensive zone.

This is something I've noticed with him multiple times in every game I've seen him. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen him make a stretch pass. Not joking. He just seems to have a lot of trouble identifying where his outlets are. That's an essential skill to have as a defenseman in the NHL today.

He likes to skate the puck up the ice though and does a good job of it, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do that at the NHL level without becoming a more dynamic skater. Either way, I fully maintain my earlier comments on him in that he's a 1 zone player. He looks lost defensively, never really sure where to be or how to defend. Don't really like his balance either.

Honestly he reminds me a lot of the NHL version of Griffin Reinhart. Obviously he has an offensive dimension to his game that Reinhart never did, which is why Byram has a much higher chance of succeeding in the NHL, but in the other two zones they look strikingly similar, and not in a good way.

Compare Byram to Söderström and Heinola and they both look miles better defensively and in the neutral zone playing against men than Byram does against boys.

 

[ConnorMcMullet]

His skating is honestly really bad.

That's something I disagree with completely. He isn't a speedster but he isn't slow either, and has great edges and can evade checks well.

That said, I do think that his defensive game is a bit overrated at this point. But I love his offensive game and he's got the tools to become better defensively. He's got a bit of a mean streak too which I like.

 

[FrankGallagher]

Ok, so I just watched a shift-by-shift on him from earlier this month. I don't see any changes in his game. If anything I like him even less than I did before. His skating is honestly really bad. Because of how slow he is to get to loose pucks the forecheckers close in on him so fast. Now that wouldn't be so bad if he was quick to make decisions and move the puck in those situations, but he isn't. He's really indecisive with the puck on his stick in the defensive zone.

This is something I've noticed with him multiple times in every game I've seen him. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen him make a stretch pass. Not joking. He just seems to have a lot of trouble identifying where his outlets are. That's an essential skill to have as a defenseman in the NHL today.

He likes to skate the puck up the ice though and does a good job of it, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do that at the NHL level without becoming a more dynamic skater. Either way, I fully maintain my earlier comments on him in that he's a 1 zone player. He looks lost defensively, never really sure where to be or how to defend. Don't really like his balance either.

Honestly he reminds me a lot of the NHL version of Griffin Reinhart. Obviously he has an offensive dimension to his game that Reinhart never did, which is why Byram has a much higher chance of succeeding in the NHL, but in the other two zones they look strikingly similar, and not in a good way.

Compare Byram to Söderström and Heinola and they both look miles better defensively and in the neutral zone playing against men than Byram does against boys.

Not the type to normally reply on here, but this is a very inaccurate post. I am not sure what games you caught of Byrams, so could have just seen a couple tough nights. His game has rapidly changed over the course of the year as he evolved in to the most dynamic defence man in the league and made huge gains in his confidence and assertiveness with the puck. His skating is bad... this is an all around bad take. He is one of the best skaters in this years class. His top end speed is not elite, though still very good, but his pivots and edge work as well as acceleration are standout level good. The guy puts on an absolute clinic on how to walk the blue line and beat a defender with his elite skating.

What you are talking about is not a skating issue, it is an urgency issue and I would agree that he sometimes is not in to a corner as fast as he could be but that's often deliberate in an attempt to commit forecheckers and open space for his partner on the other side. Also do not see this indecisiveness you are speaking of, he clearly thinks a step ahead and over the course of the game makes a ton of great breakout decisions with quick outlet passes using his wingers, using the middle of the ice to his centre, or recognizing when a forechecker has overcommitted allowing him space to skate. Never makes stretch passes is also nuts as he has sent teammates on breakaways with passes from below his ringette line multiple times, he loves throwing the home run pass especially on the regroup when space opens up behind coverage.

Skating the puck so frequently at this level is a product of what he can do with his skill advantage at this level, it will obviously be adjusted as he moves up levels but nonetheless is a good tool to have. Encouragingly he's also shown excellent senses joining the rush in support and scored a ton through this which is a very transferable ability. In the neutral zone I think he's an elite play driver, he generates entries at a ridiculous rate and completely drives his teams neutral zone play, there are stats to back this up if you don't believe me.

His rush defence is also very good, he plays with an excellent gap constantly applying NHL style cross pressure and takes away the time and space for opponents to make plays off the rush. On top of this he is very good at dispossessing players with his stick and is not unwilling to play physically. I do think his engagement in the d zone can occasionally drift which is something to work on, but it's not at the point of major flaw.

Not even going to reply to the Reinhart comparison... Byram is clearly the best defence man in this draft, I would have Soderstrom second and agree that he's stronger positionally in the d zone, but he lacks the dynamic ability and higher end skills that Byram consistently shows. And no I am not one of those Byram is the third best player in the draft guys, I would have him sixth.

 

[Dominance]

That's something I disagree with completely. He isn't a speedster but he isn't slow either, and has great edges and can evade checks well.

That said, I do think that his defensive game is a bit overrated at this point. But I love his offensive game and he's got the tools to become better defensively. He's got a bit of a mean streak too which I like.

His defensive game isn’t overrated at all. His gap control is outstanding. Haven’t watched enough of everyone but I’m certain it’s among the best in the draft. Some of the best I’ve ever seen from watching the WHL.

The talk of his skating concerns is giving me a headache. Are you guys serious? @Zaddy we get it, you’re on a campaign that York is the best d-man in the draft. Maybe he is, maybe he will be, maybe you’ve watched some of Byram and maybe you haven’t. If you did, you either caught an awful game or were going in with a microscope and a mission.

Bad skating with an emphasis on agility.
Bad vision.
Looks lost defensively.
Bad balance.

Who have you been watching. These are what his strengths are. Do I need glasses? Does every analyst and ranking system out there making assessments that are the polar opposite of your own need them too?

Here’s a video + commentary from FC’s @Andy Lehoux

 

[Dominance]

Not the type to normally reply on here, but this is a very inaccurate post. I am not sure what games you caught of Byrams, so could have just seen a couple tough nights. His game has rapidly changed over the course of the year as he evolved in to the most dynamic defence man in the league and made huge gains in his confidence and assertiveness with the puck. His skating is bad... this is an all around bad take. He is one of the best skaters in this years class. His top end speed is not elite, though still very good, but his pivots and edge work as well as acceleration are standout level good. The guy puts on an absolute clinic on how to walk the blue line and beat a defender with his elite skating.

What you are talking about is not a skating issue, it is an urgency issue and I would agree that he sometimes is not in to a corner as fast as he could be but that's often deliberate in an attempt to commit forecheckers and open space for his partner on the other side. Also do not see this indecisiveness you are speaking of, he clearly thinks a step ahead and over the course of the game makes a ton of great breakout decisions with quick outlet passes using his wingers, using the middle of the ice to his centre, or recognizing when a forechecker has overcommitted allowing him space to skate. Never makes stretch passes is also nuts as he has sent teammates on breakaways with passes from below his ringette line multiple times, he loves throwing the home run pass especially on the regroup when space opens up behind coverage.

Skating the puck so frequently at this level is a product of what he can do with his skill advantage at this level, it will obviously be adjusted as he moves up levels but nonetheless is a good tool to have. Encouragingly he's also shown excellent senses joining the rush in support and scored a ton through this which is a very transferable ability. In the neutral zone I think he's an elite play driver, he generates entries at a ridiculous rate and completely drives his teams neutral zone play, there are stats to back this up if you don't believe me.

His rush defence is also very good, he plays with an excellent gap constantly applying NHL style cross pressure and takes away the time and space for opponents to make plays off the rush. On top of this he is very good at dispossessing players with his stick and is not unwilling to play physically. I do think his engagement in the d zone can occasionally drift which is something to work on, but it's not at the point of major flaw.

Not even going to reply to the Reinhart comparison... Byram is clearly the best defence man in this draft, I would have Soderstrom second and agree that he's stronger positionally in the d zone, but he lacks the dynamic ability and higher end skills that Byram consistently shows. And no I am not one of those Byram is the third best player in the draft guys, I would have him sixth.

Excellent breakdown. As one who has watched Byram live and otherwise frequently this year, I second every comment made. I’m sure other fans of the WHL would agree as well. While his position in the rankings among the many great forwards of this draft class is up for debate, these points simply are not.

 

[SuperScript29]

If the Wings don't get one o the top two, I'm perfectly happy with them drafting Byram. The kid looks like a stud, he seems like a very well rounded d-man.

 

[sting101]

Ok, so I just watched a shift-by-shift on him from earlier this month. I don't see any changes in his game. If anything I like him even less than I did before. His skating is honestly really bad. Because of how slow he is to get to loose pucks the forecheckers close in on him so fast. Now that wouldn't be so bad if he was quick to make decisions and move the puck in those situations, but he isn't. He's really indecisive with the puck on his stick in the defensive zone.

This is something I've noticed with him multiple times in every game I've seen him. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen him make a stretch pass. Not joking. He just seems to have a lot of trouble identifying where his outlets are. That's an essential skill to have as a defenseman in the NHL today.

He likes to skate the puck up the ice though and does a good job of it, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do that at the NHL level without becoming a more dynamic skater. Either way, I fully maintain my earlier comments on him in that he's a 1 zone player. He looks lost defensively, never really sure where to be or how to defend. Don't really like his balance either.

Honestly he reminds me a lot of the NHL version of Griffin Reinhart. Obviously he has an offensive dimension to his game that Reinhart never did, which is why Byram has a much higher chance of succeeding in the NHL, but in the other two zones they look strikingly similar, and not in a good way.

Compare Byram to Söderström and Heinola and they both look miles better defensively and in the neutral zone playing against men than Byram does against boys.

Stopped reading at bolded.

 

[covfefe]

Ok, so I just watched a shift-by-shift on him from earlier this month. I don't see any changes in his game. If anything I like him even less than I did before. His skating is honestly really bad. Because of how slow he is to get to loose pucks the forecheckers close in on him so fast. Now that wouldn't be so bad if he was quick to make decisions and move the puck in those situations, but he isn't. He's really indecisive with the puck on his stick in the defensive zone.

This is something I've noticed with him multiple times in every game I've seen him. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen him make a stretch pass. Not joking. He just seems to have a lot of trouble identifying where his outlets are. That's an essential skill to have as a defenseman in the NHL today.

He likes to skate the puck up the ice though and does a good job of it, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do that at the NHL level without becoming a more dynamic skater. Either way, I fully maintain my earlier comments on him in that he's a 1 zone player. He looks lost defensively, never really sure where to be or how to defend. Don't really like his balance either.

Honestly he reminds me a lot of the NHL version of Griffin Reinhart. Obviously he has an offensive dimension to his game that Reinhart never did, which is why Byram has a much higher chance of succeeding in the NHL, but in the other two zones they look strikingly similar, and not in a good way.

Compare Byram to Söderström and Heinola and they both look miles better defensively and in the neutral zone playing against men than Byram does against boys.

A shift-by-shift is not going to tell you anything valuable. Watch some games, and form an opinion - or don't, and have one anyway. But you are far more likely to completely miss the mark if you are basing all of this on a shift-by-shift and some games you watched back in the fall.

That's why NHL teams have dedicated regional scouts - so they can watch and evaluate games, and not base their opinions on lacklustre potato-cam shift-by-shift video replays of games..

Bad skater? Sure...compared to McDavid?
Doesn't know how to use his outlets? Really?
Griffin Reinhart? U w0t M8?

Byram reminds me of Griffin Reinhart in the same way that Boyd Devereaux reminds me of Wayne Gretzky. In that they are both white males who played hockey.

 

[ConnorMcMullet]

His defensive game isn’t overrated at all. His gap control is outstanding. Haven’t watched enough of everyone but I’m certain it’s among the best in the draft. Some of the best I’ve ever seen from watching the WHL.

The talk of his skating concerns is giving me a headache. Are you guys serious? @Zaddy we get it, you’re on a campaign that York is the best d-man in the draft. Maybe he is, maybe he will be, maybe you’ve watched some of Byram and maybe you haven’t. If you did, you either caught an awful game or were going in with a microscope and a mission.

Bad skating with an emphasis on agility.
Bad vision.
Looks lost defensively.
Bad balance.

Who have you been watching. These are what his strengths are. Do I need glasses? Does every analyst and ranking system out there making assessments that are the polar opposite of your own need them too?

Here’s a video + commentary from FC’s @Andy Lehoux

I said I think his defensive game is overrated at this point. His gap control is good, but he needs work positionally. Not saying it can't become great, but it isn't there yet.

 

[BottomDweller1968]

And no I am not one of those Byram is the third best player in the draft guys, I would have him sixth.

Good take. Just curious who do you have ahead of him?

 

[Zaddy]

The talk of his skating concerns is giving me a headache. Are you guys serious? @Zaddy we get it, you’re on a campaign that York is the best d-man in the draft. Maybe he is, maybe he will be, maybe you’ve watched some of Byram and maybe you haven’t. If you did, you either caught an awful game or were going in with a microscope and a mission.

Bad skating with an emphasis on agility.
Bad vision.
Looks lost defensively.
Bad balance.

Who have you been watching. These are what his strengths are. Do I need glasses? Does every analyst and ranking system out there making assessments that are the polar opposite of your own need them too?

I'm not on any type of campaign. Never have been, never will be. I just call it like I see it. Just like how I loved Draisaitl in his draft year, defended him in his post-draft year when everyone said he was a bust and Strome was a much better prospect etc. I had both Marner and Barzal ranked ahead of Strome in 2015, absolutely loved Thomas Chabot and had him ranked 12 spots ahead of his teammate Zboril who the majority of people/scouts thought were a better defenseman. I also had Vince Dunn in the 1st round at #20, one of few people to have him ranked that high. In 2016 I was the loudest critic of Puljujärvi on these boards. Again, no agenda, no campaign, just calling it how I see it. Only thing I'm saying here is that I believe Byram is overhyped and I have at least 2 defensemen ahead of him in my rankings at this time.

To answer your second question, I don't know what others are watching. Sometimes the hype train get rolling and never really slow down, people don't stop to take a more critical look at a player and get mesmerized by the points they're putting on the board. Everyone and their aunt had Pulju in the top3 in 2016. Same with Yakupov in 2012. Both guys had some major flaws but the hype was there and people saw what they wanted to see in those players more than what they actually were.

Byram is not the only guy I think is overhyped in this draft, I've talked a lot about Podkolzin and Cozens as well. I've done this for so long now and worked in the scouting industry myself that I trust my own judgment. Doesn't mean I can't be hilariously wrong still, but I'm willing to stick my neck out and stand by my opinion on these players. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

 

[Zaddy]

A shift-by-shift is not going to tell you anything valuable. Watch some games, and form an opinion - or don't, and have one anyway. But you are far more likely to completely miss the mark if you are basing all of this on a shift-by-shift and some games you watched back in the fall.

That's why NHL teams have dedicated regional scouts - so they can watch and evaluate games, and not base their opinions on lacklustre potato-cam shift-by-shift video replays of games..

Bad skater? Sure...compared to McDavid?
Doesn't know how to use his outlets? Really?
Griffin Reinhart? U w0t M8?

Byram reminds me of Griffin Reinhart in the same way that Boyd Devereaux reminds me of Wayne Gretzky. In that they are both white males who played hockey.

A shift-by-shift is not going to tell me anything valuable? Excuse me? Shift-by-shift videos are possibly the best way to evaluate a prospect because you see almost everything and can rewind however many times you want to fully understand how a play/situation developed. Watching games in real time (whether on video or live) you miss an incredible amount of information. I've scouted in the past and there were many times I went to games and scribbled down notes on what happened in the game, just to come home, re-watch the game on video and realize that many situations that I thought happened a certain way actually didn't. The eye and brain just can't process that much information simultaneously. That's why shift-by-shift (and video in general) is so extremely valuable.

 

[Zaddy]

Stopped reading at bolded.

Just two of many examples of him getting beat.

 

[Dominance]

I'm not on any type of campaign. Never have been, never will be. I just call it like I see it. Just like how I loved Draisaitl in his draft year, defended him in his post-draft year when everyone said he was a bust and Strome was a much better prospect etc. I had both Marner and Barzal ranked ahead of Strome in 2015, absolutely loved Thomas Chabot and had him ranked 12 spots ahead of his teammate Zboril who the majority of people/scouts thought were a better defenseman. I also had Vince Dunn in the 1st round at #20, one of few people to have him ranked that high. In 2016 I was the loudest critic of Puljujärvi on these boards. Again, no agenda, no campaign, just calling it how I see it. Only thing I'm saying here is that I believe Byram is overhyped and I have at least 2 defensemen ahead of him in my rankings at this time.

To answer your second question, I don't know what others are watching. Sometimes the hype train get rolling and never really slow down, people don't stop to take a more critical look at a player and get mesmerized by the points they're putting on the board. Everyone and their aunt had Pulju in the top3 in 2016. Same with Yakupov in 2012. Both guys had some major flaws but the hype was there and people saw what they wanted to see in those players more than what they actually were.

Byram is not the only guy I think is overhyped in this draft, I've talked a lot about Podkolzin and Cozens as well. I've done this for so long now and worked in the scouting industry myself that I trust my own judgment. Doesn't mean I can't be hilariously wrong still, but I'm willing to stick my neck out and stand by my opinion on these players. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

Well, respect for that.

 

[sting101]

Just two of many examples of him getting beat.

Ok this is the problem with Youtube scouting.

I was at that Kelowna game and it wasn't one of his better games (Kannok-Leipert was better that game) and i will add in the Winter Hawks game he had a terrible outing while Joakim Blichfield scored a hatty although most of his damage was PP related. Just to show you i dont think he's a flawless prospect.

All these kids have inconsistencies to their games and Byram is no exception, but this assertion and examples you gave where he skates like an NHL version of Griffin Reinhart are brutally bad. Is there any possibility he was gassed at the end of a shift maybe? Are you just gonna toss away mountains of examples where he blows by people going up ice and then is the first one back countless times a game? what do you say to the Youtube video that was posted for you right after which i strongly agree with?

I've seen him over 30times live and i can say with certainty that he is a top tier 4 direction skater. His top speed is the only thing that could be criticized in the least for me. For you to call it what you did shows a lack of research not a boldness to call it like you see it. Anyone can cherry pick a lowlight like you have and i'm suprised you would say this if you had Dunn and Chabot rated highly like i did due to their skating which is very much like Byram's coming out of junior. (Obviously Byram is further developed than Dunn was who had lots of filling out to do which is why he dropped.)

 

[bsu]

Ok, so I just watched a shift-by-shift on him from earlier this month. I don't see any changes in his game. If anything I like him even less than I did before. His skating is honestly really bad. Because of how slow he is to get to loose pucks the forecheckers close in on him so fast. Now that wouldn't be so bad if he was quick to make decisions and move the puck in those situations, but he isn't. He's really indecisive with the puck on his stick in the defensive zone.

This is something I've noticed with him multiple times in every game I've seen him. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen him make a stretch pass. Not joking. He just seems to have a lot of trouble identifying where his outlets are. That's an essential skill to have as a defenseman in the NHL today.

He likes to skate the puck up the ice though and does a good job of it, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do that at the NHL level without becoming a more dynamic skater. Either way, I fully maintain my earlier comments on him in that he's a 1 zone player. He looks lost defensively, never really sure where to be or how to defend. Don't really like his balance either.

Honestly he reminds me a lot of the NHL version of Griffin Reinhart. Obviously he has an offensive dimension to his game that Reinhart never did, which is why Byram has a much higher chance of succeeding in the NHL, but in the other two zones they look strikingly similar, and not in a good way.

Compare Byram to Söderström and Heinola and they both look miles better defensively and in the neutral zone playing against men than Byram does against boys.

Did Connor McDavid remind you of Milan Lucic? Because the two you mentioned games are nothing alike.

What a horrible take.

 

[FrankGallagher]

Good take. Just curious who do you have ahead of him?

Can't get in to my list too much but Hughes, Kakko, Turcotte, Podkolzin, Krebs.

 

[covfefe]

A shift-by-shift is not going to tell me anything valuable? Excuse me? Shift-by-shift videos are possibly the best way to evaluate a prospect because you see almost everything and can rewind however many times you want to fully understand how a play/situation developed. Watching games in real time (whether on video or live) you miss an incredible amount of information. I've scouted in the past and there were many times I went to games and scribbled down notes on what happened in the game, just to come home, re-watch the game on video and realize that many situations that I thought happened a certain way actually didn't. The eye and brain just can't process that much information simultaneously. That's why shift-by-shift (and video in general) is so extremely valuable.

If you think Byram is a verifiably bad skater - and the bolded are your words, not mine - then the eye and the brain aren't processing any information simultaneously. He blows by opponents on a regular basis and his ability to create offense with his feet and hands is unmatched by any other defender in this draft. He misdirects opponents with his edgework, and he walks the blueline with ease on a regular basis. Those are not things that a bad skater does, the two are simply incompatible.

In the case of Byram, I strongly feel that you are misrepresenting the kid's game, because you have pointed out a number of 'weaknesses' that many regular WHL viewers would point to as strengths in his game. The fact that you think he can't identify outlets is just completely, verifiably, off-base. For one. The bad skating thing is a second strike. The Reinhart comparison (PS: Reinhart was a stud defensively in Jr - while you've repeatedly said Byram is 'bad' - not sure if that helps your position the way you feel it may) comes in as the 3rd strike against your position. I cannot think of two players in more diametric opposition than those two.

The last player who was this good at 17 in the WHL was Provorov. Before that, it was Rielly. And Jones just before that. All 3 of those are top pairing, verifiable stud NHL d-men. Does that mean Byram will be a stud? Of course not. But all signs are pointing to that happening.

To my point about shift-by-shift videos:

You can't analyze a player's whole game off of shift-by-shift videos - they should be a secondary tool, not your primary means of assessment. They are helpful, to confirm, or deny, certain specific questions about a player. But if you aren't watching games regularly, you don't know what you are talking about - with all due respect. I think you are quite a knowledgeable poster 99% of the time, for what that's worth.

I'll ask you this - have you watched the Giants in the playoffs? Or, how about in more than 10 games this season? If the answer is no, I think I'll leave it at - let's agree to disagree on this one. We can revisit who is right in 3, or 5 years time.

 

[Zaddy]

Ok this is the problem with Youtube scouting.

I was at that Kelowna game and it wasn't one of his better games (Kannok-Leipert was better that game) and i will add in the Winter Hawks game he had a terrible outing while Joakim Blichfield scored a hatty although most of his damage was PP related. Just to show you i dont think he's a flawless prospect.

All these kids have inconsistencies to their games and Byram is no exception, but this assertion and examples you gave where he skates like an NHL version of Griffin Reinhart are brutally bad. Is there any possibility he was gassed at the end of a shift maybe? Are you just gonna toss away mountains of examples where he blows by people going up ice and then is the first one back countless times a game? what do you say to the Youtube video that was posted for you right after which i strongly agree with?

I've seen him over 30times live and i can say with certainty that he is a top tier 4 direction skater. His top speed is the only thing that could be criticized in the least for me. For you to call it what you did shows a lack of research not a boldness to call it like you see it. Anyone can cherry pick a lowlight like you have and i'm suprised you would say this if you had Dunn and Chabot rated highly like i did due to their skating which is very much like Byram's coming out of junior. (Obviously Byram is further developed than Dunn was who had lots of filling out to do which is why he dropped.)

The examples are not from the most recent Kelowna game, it's from earlier in the season from another shift-by-shift I watched. And no I'm not cherry-picking in the slightest, these were just two of many examples as I said. I could probably pick out at least 4 sequences a game where this happens if I wanted to waste my time just to prove a point. Honestly I find it absurd to be called out as someone who cherry picks lowlights, I've been on these boards discussing prospects for many many years now and especially this year in many of my posts I go heavily into detail as to why I feel a certain way about a player and I also provide video evidence, which is more than most do. But yeah I'm totally cherry picking

Also to compare Byram's skating with Dunn's is laughable. Dunn was an absolutely elite skater. Byram is not even close to that.

 

[Zaddy]

Did Connor McDavid remind you of Milan Lucic? Because the two you mentioned games are nothing alike.

What a horrible take.

I didn't say they were carbon copies. I only said his defensive game and skating reminds me of what I saw from Reinhart (as an Oilers player). Byram is different than Griffin in many other regards. But get upset and use a hyperbole example, it's a great way to have a fruitful discussion.

 

[covfefe]

Yes, I would like to see the 4 sequences a game where he gets buried for a goal. Please do provide them.

Of course, he would have had to put up ~200 more points to offset the +/- differential that would have resulted in. Given that he finished +33...

 

[Zaddy]

If you think Byram is a verifiably bad skater - and the bolded are your words, not mine - then the eye and the brain aren't processing any information simultaneously. He blows by opponents on a regular basis and his ability to create offense with his feet and hands is unmatched by any other defender in this draft. He misdirects opponents with his edgework, and he walks the blueline with ease on a regular basis. Those are not things that a bad skater does, the two are simply incompatible.

You realize skating is comprised of so many different facets right? Yes he is not a terrible skater in every measure, and I never said that either. But as a whole his skating leaves a lot to be desired for me. He's after-all a defenseman, and as such it is pretty important to be able to skate backwards and also to have a burst of speed to be able to retrieve pucks before the forechecker closes in. He regularly gets into trouble in these situations, and this is in the WHL against boys, what will it look like when he moves to the pro level?

In the case of Byram, I strongly feel that you are misrepresenting the kid's game, because you have pointed out a number of 'weaknesses' that many regular WHL viewers would point to as strengths in his game. The fact that you think he can't identify outlets is just completely, verifiably, off-base. For one. The bad skating thing is a second strike. The Reinhart comparison (PS: Reinhart was a stud defensively in Jr - while you've repeatedly said Byram is 'bad' - not sure if that helps your position the way you feel it may) comes in as the 3rd strike against your position. I cannot think of two players in more diametric opposition than those two.

If you read my post you should know that I compared him to Reinhart the NHL player, not the WHL player. Huge difference. I very well know that Reinhart was a good defensive player in the WHL, but he wasn't in the NHL as he didn't have the footspeed and wasn't cerebral enough to make up for it.

The last player who was this good at 17 in the WHL was Provorov. Before that, it was Rielly. And Jones just before that. All 3 of those are top pairing, verifiable stud NHL d-men. Does that mean Byram will be a stud? Of course not. But all signs are pointing to that happening.

We'll see. Look, I'm not hating Byram or saying he will bust. In fact, I said he will likely be a 2nd pairing D. There's no shame in that. A top4 D is still very valuable.

You can't analyze a player's whole game off of shift-by-shift videos - they should be a secondary tool, not your primary means of assessment. They are helpful, to confirm, or deny, certain specific questions about a player. But if you aren't watching games regularly, you don't know what you are talking about - with all due respect. I think you are quite a knowledgeable poster 99% of the time, for what that's worth.

I disagree on shift-by-shift. I think it's in fact the best tool you can use. I know a lot of people will disagree with that and people rave all the time about the "eye test" and the importance of "live views", and I used to buy into that stuff...until I started scouting myself that is and going to 40 games a year and realize just how much you miss when you're in the building. There are of course some things that you can see in a live game that you cannot see on video, but if I had to choose between ONLY live views or ONLY shift-by-shift video to evaluate a prospect, I would choose the latter every time. It paints a much more complete picture. Not being able to rewind and break down plays step-by-step is a killer. There are so incredibly many biases involved when you're watching a player live, not to mention poor sight lines and stuff that just makes it impossible to see everything.

I'll ask you this - have you watched the Giants in the playoffs? Or, how about in more than 10 games this season? If the answer is no, I think I'll leave it at - let's agree to disagree on this one. We can revisit who is right in 3, or 5 years time.

No, I haven't seen the Giants in the playoffs and no I haven't seen him more than 10 games. This is another point of contention from my side. You don't need to watch a player 10 times or more. In fact I think it's counter-productive. 4-5 times spread out over the season is generally enough to get to know a player. Because the more you watch a player, the more the bias creeps in and distorts your view, whether it's positively or negatively, it happens. I know this because I realized it myself while scouting how distorted my view got of the team I saw 20 times a season. I think legendary Detroit scout Håkan Andersson is even on record saying that he doesn't want to watch a prospect more than a handful of times because it screws with your perception of the player.

 

[Zaddy]

Yes, I would like to see the 4 sequences a game where he gets buried for a goal. Please do provide them.

Of course, he would have had to put up ~200 more points to offset the +/- differential that would have resulted in. Given that he finished +33...

Where did I say he got buried for a goal? Nice strawman.

 

[sting101]

Ok, so I just watched a shift-by-shift on him from earlier this month. I don't see any changes in his game. If anything I like him even less than I did before. His skating is honestly really bad. Because of how slow he is to get to loose pucks the forecheckers close in on him so fast. Now that wouldn't be so bad if he was quick to make decisions and move the puck in those situations, but he isn't. He's really indecisive with the puck on his stick in the defensive zone.

This is something I've noticed with him multiple times in every game I've seen him. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever seen him make a stretch pass. Not joking. He just seems to have a lot of trouble identifying where his outlets are. That's an essential skill to have as a defenseman in the NHL today.

He likes to skate the puck up the ice though and does a good job of it, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to do that at the NHL level without becoming a more dynamic skater. Either way, I fully maintain my earlier comments on him in that he's a 1 zone player. He looks lost defensively, never really sure where to be or how to defend. Don't really like his balance either.

Honestly he reminds me a lot of the NHL version of Griffin Reinhart. Obviously he has an offensive dimension to his game that Reinhart never did, which is why Byram has a much higher chance of succeeding in the NHL, but in the other two zones they look strikingly similar, and not in a good way.

Compare Byram to Söderström and Heinola and they both look miles better defensively and in the neutral zone playing against men than Byram does against boys.

These are your quotes. Skating is really bad. Dont like his balance. Never seen him make a stretch pass. Indecisive with the puck. Looks lost defensively. Reminds you of Griffen Reinhart NHL version yet you somehow call him atop4 down the road. all in follow up to OK so i just watched a shift by shift from earlier this month.

You do realize why your getting criticized for these takes i hope? and you never responded to the skating take by the Lehoux youtube video or what i've been arguing with you regarding his talents really other than to pump your reputation which is fine but makes me that much more perplexed by your assertions. And i watched Vince Dunn also and had him rated in the 20s 2015 too but for you to think his skating is that much better than Byrams at the same age is way off.

I'm sure you put in time on this and you have some good takes on players but this is so off in left field. You essentially torched this player and descibed a bust at the tools level which is contrary to everything i've seen and what the scouts are saying......explain this?

I have a hard time seeing Byrums skating being the thing that holds him back like you desribed......whatever should be some good fodder for someone in a few years.