Latest on the Arizona Coyotes Arena ordeal

[WhataKnight]

The state of New York has basically 4 teams too (Buffalo, Rangers, Islanders, and New Jersey) with only about half the population of California (~20M compared to ~40M).

That did cross my mind, absolutely. I’m not one to say that New York is grandfathered in due to being in the North, but I’d at least say that the Islanders and Whalers/Canes are a result of the WHL vs. NHL days. The difference in eras and conditions doesn’t quite arrive at the mind (mine, at least) as potentially over-diluting a region with teams the same, given that difference in eras/happenstances.

That - and the division alignments aren’t the most kind to a 4th CA team; 5th if one counts the Knights a little like the Devils. Detroit and Columbus have already pitched fits against any suggestion that would put them in the Western Conference, and if I’m not mistaken, Nashville did the same regarding moving to the East. The Central Division region and MST/CST don’t collectively leave a lot of cities to stand out as an obvious destination……Phoenix and Salt Lake are pretty much the remaining major population centers, making SLC the only option that doesn’t immediately throw a wrench into the chance of a smooth transition by causing as many as three other franchises to start making angry phone calls to NY & Toronto.

As much as I don’t like the “process of elimination” method determining where to move a franchise, as long as Arizona rejects or stalls any advances from the Coyotes, the lack of other options and relative sparseness of anything in the US west anywhere there isn’t a city underlines SLC as much as anything else.

As solid as the Stars fan base is, I’d cringe less at the announcement of a sequel to Cool Runnings than Texas getting a second team just yet. Not quite an Atlanta dumpster fire (that was Atlanta Spirit Group “ownership”) but susceptible to other sporting events messing with attendance all the way down to HS athletics.

Hell, if KC were interested at this juncture - and if Houston wanted to make a fight of it with SLC, I feel like we’d have heard more rumblings over it……and KC doesn’t address the sparseness issue, since it would basically be a case of “meet your new rivals, STL!” and they’d possibly beef about it the same way Buffalo would likely reject Hamilton, ON.

I can’t truly think of a “path of least resistance” for another Central Division team that doesn’t put Utah a cut above.

 

[BB79]

When the league thinks about markets they don't think about the climate.

...and teams who don't play in traditional markets can still win the cup. Irrelevant to the point. We know, all the league sees is dollar signs. I'm talking the general public, fans, not the league.

Kind of akin to Antarctica could have a baseball team that plays in a dome. They could win the world series too. It's not a traditional baseball market though because there's snow and ice year round, hockey, figure skating and curling would be more popular traditionally. No one thinks Antartica first when they think great baseball locations.

 

[Shwan]

Hey look, Craig Morgan lied about his government "source".

 

[eojsmada]

What a nightmare this is all turning out to be.

 

[Fatass]

Hey look, Craig Morgan lied about his government "source".

What does this all mean? Are the Coyotes close to getting a 100 acre parcel to build their new rink or is this not the case?

 

[hangman005]

I'm sure the deal with be laden with controversy, legal mumbo jumbo and drawn out for another 10 years. Here we go again..

A bad joke? Bettman trolling those of us who live in traditional markets?

Actuallly reliable sources have informed me, that Gary Bettman, the NHL, the Arizona Coyotes have just retained the services of one Carmen San Diego who will steal Le Centre Vidéotron and move it to the Phoenix area.

 

[AKL]

Hey look, Craig Morgan lied about his government "source".

I've seen you post this accusation a couple times, I've seen you post a couple snippets where Morgan references a "source", what I haven't seen is you prove that he lies about them.

 

[Shwan]

So you really think a government representative at any level would have told Craig they 100% broke Arizona law for the Coyotes benefit?
Did you even read that Twitter thread?

It is against the law for specific things discussed in an e-session to be released to anyone not inside the meeting.
@CraigSMorgan is wrong that stuff leaking out of e-session is typical.

Morgan is wrong, you can not “do some of this stuff in secrecy in executive session.” At least not legally.It is absolutely 100% against the law for any action to be taken or completed in secret if it is not formally agendized. No wiggle room here. It’s against the law. Anyone saying that is just wrong. I find it very hard to believe a gov’t source would be wrong about this.However, staff prepare reports for the board, and maybe convos are happening with staff as they prepare reports or prepare recommendations for future meetings. Perhaps that is what the source meant, but the public body MUST conduct business in public.

What was on the agenda was a discussion of a lawsuit about pipeline construction in southern Arizona. I do not see how anything coyotes could have been discussed in this e-session with this agenda item. I also don’t think the board would risk violating the law to have this discussion here, especially if they are eager to eventually get something approved. Why jeopardize things!?

He lied.

Edit: I'll even add that the Tempe city council is literally being investigated by the State Attorney General for doing 1/10th of what Craig is telling us what his "source" said went down. As this is investigation involves the Coyotes you would think Craig would have known better about no-no's in executive sessions in Arizona.

Tempe paid $32K to track Coyotes opponents. Now the city is under state investigation

The Arizona attorney general is looking into whether Tempe tried to influence the election outcome with public funds and broke open meeting laws.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Shwan]

What does this all mean? Are the Coyotes close to getting a 100 acre parcel to build their new rink or is this not the case?

The Coyotes have a long long long way to go, that's even if they win the land auction.

Two things here: 1) there is no guarantee the Coyotes win the auction. These things go to the highest bidder. It is possible though Coyotes are locked in and will pay whatever it takes to win, but this land is VALUABLE someone else might want it if it goes on sale. 2) land purchase is the beginning of a very long and uncertain process here.

Owning the land doesn’t necessarily mean you can build exactly what you want.

Coyotes would still have a process with the City of Phoenix to go through. Maybe zoning changes. Definitely permit approval. This stuff won’t require a vote of the people as far as I understand, but it will require multiple meetings of multiple city committees and the council, allthat will be making public votes. They have to be agendized, there needs to be sufficient notice, there is time for appeals after the votes, etc.

Also if the Coyotes have requests for infrastructure funding or support or whatever, that is a political hot potato that the city council has to navigate. Unlike the Tempe location, I don’t THINK this state trust land has water infrastructure or roads. As far as I know, that would have to be built. I've read reporting of councilmembers saying they are open to that support, cool. But that will take a council vote.

And if the Coyotes want to create some sort of taxing district or other entity to oversee the land, that takes time too.

Realistically, a puck wouldn't be dropping in this hypothetical arena until 2030 at this point.

 

[Fatass]

The Coyotes have a long long long way to go, that's even if they win the land auction.



Realistically, a puck wouldn't be dropping in this hypothetical arena until 2030 at this point.

Thanks. Maybe the league tells Meurelo to sell to another city with a handshake deal he will get first option on expansion if he’s got the arena deal done? Just can see the league staying in Arizona with no proper nhl rink.

 

[Peasy]

Thanks. Maybe the league tells Meurelo to sell to another city with a handshake deal he will get first option on expansion if he’s got the arena deal done? Just can see the league staying in Arizona with no proper nhl rink.

From what we've seen, I think it would be tough for Bettman to want to have meurelo as an owner again if they get rid of him. Dude just seems like a massive headache and even Gary seems to have had enough of it at this point.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Wrong. Miami isn't a traditional market, neither is Arizona. They've been around a while but traditional markets are cold climates and never required hard work and decades of hounding fans for attention to "grow the game" in. No one thinks of tropical beaches when they think of ice hockey.

Cold climates never required work for attention? You might want to check attendance history.

While you’re there you will also see Florida is top-10 in attendance. As is many warm climate cities.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Have experienced it personally and I'm not a Coyotes fan nor do I really follow what's going on there, but I distinctly remember when popular Canadian media were going on and on about how it was a disgrace to have to keep propping up "failed southern teams like Columbus".

It's pure clickbait with minimal basis in reality and yet so many of y'all fall for it every time.

* * *​

Atlanta wasn't able to have such a chance because there were no arenas other than Phillips, and the owner and operator of same were the same folks who were actively engaged in killing off the Thrashers.

I am a Southern Ontario raised Panthers fan.

We have only just recently been dropped from that same whipping boys status in the national media too.

Too say there is not clear biases with a straight face, is an interesting hill to die on.

 

[BB79]

Actuallly reliable sources have informed me, that Gary Bettman, the NHL, the Arizona Coyotes have just retained the services of one Carmen San Diego who will steal Le Centre Vidéotron and move it to the Phoenix area.

Nothing would surprise me at this point

 

[BB79]

Cold climates never required work for attention? You might want to check attendance history.

While you’re there you will also see Florida is top-10 in attendance. As is many warm climate cities.

I did- The Sabres blow yet still drew 18k+ fans 2011 until crapvid 2020. How about Phoenix? 13k same time frame. In fact, despite going to the conference final in 2012 the Coyotes couldn't even break 14k fans the following season. Carolina drew 12k-14k from 2014-2019 when times got tough. They had abysmal attendance until 2002 (and that's ignoring the ridiculous Greensboro seasons.12-13k fans avg first 2 yrs in Raleigh)

Lmao seriously? hey great, the Panthers are top ten in attendance....after visiting the Final last spring. Everyone loves a winner (except Phoenix apparently, that market is that terrible) The real test is when the going gets tough, which I'll revert back to the Sabres. They have only fallen off in the last 2 years as people are finally at the point of protesting the idiotic Pegulas/Adams who can't get out of their own way...you might see lower numbers, I see yet another sign of a passionate fanbase, sick of losing despite filling the arena for years while watching a terrible product. No need to "grow" the game with gimmicks there. Just make the playoffs

You can also check that Florida is loaded with snowbirds from said northern cities, which I'm sure helps attendance. Especially games against those teams. Like when they had to limit the amount of Leafs fans getting tickets to their playoff series.


Dallas is the only one I can find in recent (1990s+) times that did well right out of the gate. Nashville did 16k+ for the first 2 seasons, then the novelty wore off. It took until the 2010s to break 16k fans again.

 

[Ratsreign]

I did- The Sabres blow yet still drew 18k+ fans 2011 until crapvid 2020. How about Phoenix? 13k same time frame. In fact, despite going to the conference final in 2012 the Coyotes couldn't even break 14k fans the following season. Carolina drew 12k-14k from 2014-2019 when times got tough. They had abysmal attendance until 2002 (and that's ignoring the ridiculous Greensboro seasons.12-13k fans avg first 2 yrs in Raleigh)

Lmao seriously? hey great, the Panthers are top ten in attendance....after visiting the Final last spring. Everyone loves a winner (except Phoenix apparently, that market is that terrible) The real test is when the going gets tough, which I'll revert back to the Sabres. They have only fallen off in the last 2 years as people are finally at the point of protesting the idiotic Pegulas/Adams who can't get out of their own way...you might see lower numbers, I see yet another sign of a passionate fanbase, sick of losing despite filling the arena for years while watching a terrible product. No need to "grow" the game with gimmicks there. Just make the playoffs

You can also check that Florida is loaded with snowbirds from said northern cities, which I'm sure helps attendance. Especially games against those teams. Like when they had to limit the amount of Leafs fans getting tickets to their playoff series.


Dallas is the only one I can find in recent (1990s+) times that did well right out of the gate. Nashville did 16k+ for the first 2 seasons, then the novelty wore off. It took until the 2010s to break 16k fans again.

Fans in Buffalo get “credit” for finally being at the point of protesting idiotic ownership/management....while fans in FL who refused to waste their money on similar shoddy organizational leadership “just don’t care about hockey down there....”

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I did- The Sabres blow yet still drew 18k+ fans 2011 until crapvid 2020. How about Phoenix? 13k same time frame. In fact, despite going to the conference final in 2012 the Coyotes couldn't even break 14k fans the following season. Carolina drew 12k-14k from 2014-2019 when times got tough. They had abysmal attendance until 2002 (and that's ignoring the ridiculous Greensboro seasons.12-13k fans avg first 2 yrs in Raleigh)

Lmao seriously? hey great, the Panthers are top ten in attendance....after visiting the Final last spring. Everyone loves a winner (except Phoenix apparently, that market is that terrible) The real test is when the going gets tough, which I'll revert back to the Sabres. They have only fallen off in the last 2 years as people are finally at the point of protesting the idiotic Pegulas/Adams who can't get out of their own way...you might see lower numbers, I see yet another sign of a passionate fanbase, sick of losing despite filling the arena for years while watching a terrible product. No need to "grow" the game with gimmicks there. Just make the playoffs

You can also check that Florida is loaded with snowbirds from said northern cities, which I'm sure helps attendance. Especially games against those teams. Like when they had to limit the amount of Leafs fans getting tickets to their playoff series.


Dallas is the only one I can find in recent (1990s+) times that did well right out of the gate. Nashville did 16k+ for the first 2 seasons, then the novelty wore off. It took until the 2010s to break 16k fans again.

Ah, you’re one of those, excuses only count for the cold weather teams guys. How about Boston and Pittsburgh in the late 90’s and early 2000’s? What about Chicago and the Islanders after that? And Ottawa? How about Winnipeg now?

And it’s just chance that Tampa, Carolina, Florida, Dallas, and Nashville all currently have great attendance? Oh… snow birds.

 

[Voight]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Craig Morgan is just a mouthpiece for Coyotes ownership anyways.

 

[Divine]

Friedman just said on HNIC if Arizona doesn't win the June auction that the NHL is open to relocation

 

[FMichael]

Friedman just said on HNIC if Arizona doesn't win the June auction that the NHL is open to relocation

Yeah I’ll believe that when…

 

[Kshahdoo]

Friedman just said on HNIC if Arizona doesn't win the June auction that the NHL is open to relocation

And where will they move to, I wonder. Canada?

 

[Silky Johnson]

I’m not digging because I’ve already seen it. Again, I don’t care if you choose to believe it or not. I’m not trying to win people over. Also, not annoyed, I’m used to it, it’s just funny how much spin they put on it to fit their hatred for the team.

Literally nobody hates the Yotes. The word you should have used is apathy.

I cannot imagine an anti-Arizona agenda in the Canadian media or anywhere else when it comes to hockey. Its just weird that Bettman and the BOG want a hockey market there so badly - I mean they are the only ones.

If a team was failing as bad as the Yotes in a Canadian market...then you would see a media shitstorm!

 

[Silky Johnson]

A Canadian team that left a Canadian market because of...arena problems. A Canadian market that got a new team and now supports that team (a really good team btw) at ~2,000 fewer fans per game than was supporting the Coyotes in Glendale. So however bad the AZ market is...Canadians need to own the fact that Winnipeg is worse.

Arizona is last in the NHL in franchise value, attendance and revenue. They can't get a stable arena or owner.

They are without a doubt the very worst hockey market. There only franchise value is in the potential for it to be moved. ie buy something worth 500M and move it to a better market and then own something worth in the Billions.

 

[BB79]

Ah, you’re one of those

Yes, those people who know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Yes, those people who know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result

Yet, you want a team in Quebec, right

Way to dance around the fact that Tampa, Florida, Carolina, Dallas, Nashville, and Vegas all have great attendance.