Speculation: Last in the NHL in ROW, 3 ROW in last 23 games, last in the NHL in GF

[CrazedZooChimp]

Well, if the turnaround is only within a season or two, what does it matter if they're 27 or if they're 25? There's still plenty of career and prime left in the guys that are 27 or 25 to make it work with ease. The players you mentioned in the past team were also much more limited than the guys that are here now.

This team, even with a drastic change at the top, is not far off from being a playoff team anyway. If you trade Thornton and Boyle and you get a young speedy winger or two, you can go into next season with a solid team that would just need the right coach with the right system to make them work.

Next year, this team would need a couple top six wingers that play with speed to support playing Couture and Pavelski down the middle. I can get behind a third line like Galiardi-Sheppard-Wingels if they're played consistently and allowed to gel. Their blue line will consist of Vlasic-Burns, Stuart-Demers, and Irwin-Braun or something similar. That is a good defensive group with regards to two-way play. They simply need to be used right.

I think I agree with everything you say PF. Of course, I look back at the roster from 03-04 and can't figure out for the life of me how they almost made it to the finals I guess we were "gritty" back then, and got some scoring from three lines.

The big take away, time to bring back Ron Wilson

 

[OrrNumber4]

Not really a good example. Excluding the lock-out, Ehrhoff only played half a season in the AHL. Clowe needed time in the AHL to develop because he wasn't NHL ready. When Pavelski and Carle played in the minors, it was clear that they were too good to stay there.

True.

I think that both Carle and Vlasic might have benefited from some time in the minors. Both developed some bad habits in the NHL...then again, 80% of the time a player who is ready for the NHL, should be in the NHL.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Just finished watching the game today... very depressed we gave up Coyle. Rare blend of size, skill and skating ability. When he hits his prime he's going to be unstoppable.

I didn't see that at all. Hes going to be a solid player but unstoppable? a rare blend? hardly. Evgeni Malkin is a rare blend, Alexander Ovechkin is a rare blend. Charlie Coyle is not. I'm not saying he isn't a good prospect but its not like we don't have a similiar player (Hertl) who has more upside and offensive potential.

 

[NWShark*]

I didn't see that at all. Hes going to be a solid player but unstoppable? a rare blend? hardly. Evgeni Malkin is a rare blend, Alexander Ovechkin is a rare blend. Charlie Coyle is not. I'm not saying he isn't a good prospect but its not like we don't have a similiar player (Hertl) who has more upside and offensive potential.

Well maybe you don't know what to look for...

Don't mis read... I don't mean unstoppable like Ovi.. I mean like maybe Lucic or someone like Bertuzzi (sorta). They showed a couple highlights of his from previous games and defensmen just bounce off him and he really keeps his feet moving. He's not a coaster. Couture trying to cover him in the defensive zone was like watching an older brother play keep away from a toddler. It was comical. Yeah he's a rare blend. Can't help you if you can't see that... No one could check him off the puck in this game it seemed. He's got above average speed for his size, very good hands and vision and he's built like a bear. He's still young and hasn't filled out his big frame. I bet he's a 225 or 230 lb player in the next few years if he's a gym rat. He's also very new to the NHL so I'd also expect his game to improve dramatically in the next couple seasons. We already know he's a finisher, didn't he even score 5 in a game in the playoffs in junior or college or where ever he played...?

Closest thing the sharks have to him is Clowe and you'd have to tape a cheetah to his back to keep up with Coyle.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Well maybe you don't know what to look for...

Don't mis read... I don't mean unstoppable like Ovi.. I mean like maybe Lucic or someone like Bertuzzi (sorta). They showed a couple highlights of his from previous games and defensmen just bounce off him and he really keeps his feet moving. He's not a coaster. Couture trying to cover him in the defensive zone was like watching an older brother play keep away from a toddler. It was comical. Yeah he's a rare blend. Can't help you if you can't see that... No one could check him off the puck in this game it seemed. He's got above average speed for his size, very good hands and vision and he's built like a bear. He's still young and hasn't filled out his big frame. I bet he's a 225 or 230 lb player in the next few years if he's a gym rat. He's also very new to the NHL so I'd also expect his game to improve dramatically in the next couple seasons. We already know he's a finisher, didn't he even score 5 in a game in the playoffs in junior or college or where ever he played...?

Closest thing the sharks have to him is Clowe and you'd have to tape a cheetah to his back to keep up with Coyle.

Coyle scored 5 in a game in the Q as a 20 year old against kids. I don't see any Bertuzzi or Lucic in his game. Hes not the physical presence or an intimidator and he has nowhere near the finishing ability yet or if he ever will. I think people tend to forget how good Bert's prime was. Why are you apologizing since I don't see the big deal about Coyle? I've said hes a good prospect and probably will be a solid player but until he is that solid player on a consistent basis..hes still a prospect and not here anymore and I'd trade him for Burns 10/10 times.

 

[NWShark*]

Coyle scored 5 in a game in the Q as a 20 year old against kids. I don't see any Bertuzzi or Lucic in his game. Hes not the physical presence or an intimidator and he has nowhere near the finishing ability yet or if he ever will. I think people tend to forget how good Bert's prime was. Why are you apologizing since I don't see the big deal about Coyle? I've said hes a good prospect and probably will be a solid player but until he is that solid player on a consistent basis..hes still a prospect and not here anymore and I'd trade him for Burns 10/10 times.

Oh cmon... Being 20 against 19 and 18 isn't that big a deal. It's not like 19 to 20 is some significant jump in physical and mental development.

In hind sight I would give up just about anything else in development over Coyle... Actually if they would have taken pavs for Burns I would have preferred that. Having Coyle to play on Joes wing right now would be preferable IMO.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Remember though, that the end of the Lombardi-Sutter era signified a huge change in the team. Forget that Thornton was acquired only two seasons later. Selanne, Nolan, Ragnarsson, and Marchment were jettisoned immediately. Damphousse (blocked a trade), Ricci, and Scott Thornton stuck around but the writing was on the wall that they were not going to be retained. Rathje left at the end of '04. Even Hannan left when he decided he didn't like the new SJ identity.

At the start of the year 2006, who remained from the SJ roster since the middle of 2002? Remember, that is only 2.5 seasons...

Earlier, you called for a change similar to the crashing down of the Lombardi-Sutter era. I think to get that, you would need more than DW and Tmac getting fired and JT and Boyle being traded.

You're reading too much into that. I simply was referring to the course of events that led to their dismissals in general. A bad season, a fired head coach, and eventually a fired general manager. Who the team was then doesn't really matter compared to now. All that matters is turning this team from what it is now to something that is more competitive in terms of winning the Stanley Cup. A change in the GM and the coach always gives you a dramatic shift in the culture of your organization. Then you top that off by trading what I would argue are the two biggest leaders on this team. Then players like Clowe, who is also a leader, and Murray walk. I think that's getting the change that's necessary.

I think I agree with everything you say PF. Of course, I look back at the roster from 03-04 and can't figure out for the life of me how they almost made it to the finals I guess we were "gritty" back then, and got some scoring from three lines.

The big take away, time to bring back Ron Wilson

Three scoring lines will take you a long way. I don't think that team was all that gritty. Their top nine was Sturm-Marleau-Damphousse, Ekman-McCauley-Korolyuk, and Thornton-Ricci-Cheechoo. The third line certainly was gritty but it could put in goals. The top two lines don't fall into the gritty category. They were good, quick, and had chemistry. It's a shame Sturm got hurt and it was a shame that his replacement was Curtis Brown.

 

[stator]

An unfortunate consequence of the salary cap.

Just think of the Sharks. They went from keeping players like Ehrhoff and Clowe in the minors forever. Pavelski, Carle, Vlasic sniffed little AHL time, if any.

This is why there is a salary cap in the NHL (source is Forbes):

But the sport’s three most profitable teams–the Maple Leafs ($81.9 million), Rangers ($74 million), Canadians ($51.6 million)–accounted for 83% of the league’s income, while 13 of 30 teams lost money, before non-cash expenses and interest payments.

Without the salary cap, we'd slaughter the Sharks here on this board with our words. Phoenix would not exist, and everyone would be talking about whether the Sharks are moving or not (probably north bound).

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Coyle was a very good pick which gives me faith in Doug Wilson and the organizational drafting team (since IMO Hertl is gonna be just as good, if not better), but we got Brent ****ing Burns for him.

I don't think you guys understand how much of a need there was for Brent Burns. We had a bunch of forwards and the defense was too thin, so we traded for an all star defenseman.

We still won that trade and no hot streak from Seto says otherwise.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Oh cmon... Being 20 against 19 and 18 isn't that big a deal. It's not like 19 to 20 is some significant jump in physical and mental development.

In hind sight I would give up just about anything else in development over Coyle... Actually if they would have taken pavs for Burns I would have preferred that. Having Coyle to play on Joes wing right now would be preferable IMO.

If the Sharks didn't offer Coyle...there would have been no deal and everyone would complain because Burns would a Red Wing or Blue and say DW didn't pull the trigger.

 

[rangerssharks414]

I just noticed the Rangers are tied with the Sharks for dead last in GF. Poor Rangerssharks. His two favorite teams with all those skill players and they can't score.

I think I'd rather my team lose 5-4 every game than 2-1. At least I get to celebrate 4 goals in the other scenario.

Meh, it's ok. I really haven't been watching that much hockey this year. I knew the Rangers were massively overrated this year (not this bad, but still), and I'm used to disappointment with the Sharks.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Three scoring lines will take you a long way. I don't think that team was all that gritty. Their top nine was Sturm-Marleau-Damphousse, Ekman-McCauley-Korolyuk, and Thornton-Ricci-Cheechoo. The third line certainly was gritty but it could put in goals. The top two lines don't fall into the gritty category. They were good, quick, and had chemistry. It's a shame Sturm got hurt and it was a shame that his replacement was Curtis Brown.

Gritty doesn't mean you can't put up goals...the implication you make is wrong...

In any case, that team had very good chemistry, and probably got hot at the right time. You also had a blend of talents. There was speed, dangling ability, two-way play, and goal-scoring throughout that top-9. Plus, Ron Wilson got players like Damphousse, Ekman, and Korolyuk to play a much more well-rounded game. Nabokov also had a great postseason....

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Gritty doesn't mean you can't put up goals...the implication you make is wrong...

In any case, that team had very good chemistry, and probably got hot at the right time. You also had a blend of talents. There was speed, dangling ability, two-way play, and goal-scoring throughout that top-9. Plus, Ron Wilson got players like Damphousse, Ekman, and Korolyuk to play a much more well-rounded game. Nabokov also had a great postseason....

I never said that gritty meant you couldn't nor is that the implication. But the goal scoring is the requirement...not the grit. Your third line can have all the grit in the world...if it can't score goals, it's not going to be effective in the long run. That team should have been the template for how to build a team and it has been strayed away from. That team was three lines deep for scoring, a solid blue line from top to bottom, a quality goalie, and a system that fit the players and didn't stray too far into the conservative and too far into the aggressive.

This team has the blue line, has the goalie, and imo has the forward depth but is being coached way too far into the conservative that it is ruining them all. Too much emphasis on defense. Far too much emphasis on puck placement mistakes. Far too condensed trying to break out. There's no reason to have five guys in your own zone on a breakout.

 

[Nighthock]

^^^

agree on all points

 

[Evincar]

Not to stray away from your valid points, but the word was Hannan HATED Ron Wilson and that's why Hannan bolted as soon as he could.

I read this a lot but I wonder where it came from. What reason would Hannan have for hating Wilson? Wilson had nothing but praise for Hannan. Saying Hannan hated Wilson is silly because you could say that about anybody on the Sharks roster when he was coaching.

You could say the emergence of Vlasic and the acquisition of Rivet made Hannan expendable.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks...umbers-when-the-sharks-look-at-the-standings/

Sharks are last in league in goals for. Not good on the road this season; hoping for continued home dominance on upcoming stand.

 

[NWShark*]

Coyle was a very good pick which gives me faith in Doug Wilson and the organizational drafting team (since IMO Hertl is gonna be just as good, if not better), but we got Brent ****ing Burns for him.

I don't think you guys understand how much of a need there was for Brent Burns. We had a bunch of forwards and the defense was too thin, so we traded for an all star defenseman.

We still won that trade and no hot streak from Seto says otherwise.

Please dont interpolate... I make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday if that's the only option. Burns is easily one of my favorite players on this team. I'm simply lamenting that we had to give up a player that I think would have been the perfect fit for this team now and who I believe will be an impact player in the near future in the NHL. As I said, in hindsight I would have given up Pavs and a pick maybe or a lower level prospect instead of coyle. Couture and coyle together would be an awesome pair for a long time IMO. Couture obviously needs a power forward to give him the space he needs. He's been good this season but I think if clowe was on his game, couture is even better this season.

But hey, they took Dany Heatley and that albatros contract around the same time so we probably still owe them more...

 

[NWShark*]

I read this a lot but I wonder where it came from. What reason would Hannan have for hating Wilson? Wilson had nothing but praise for Hannan. Saying Hannan hated Wilson is silly because you could say that about anybody on the Sharks roster when he was coaching.

You could say the emergence of Vlasic and the acquisition of Rivet made Hannan expendable.

No this was in a few articles or something.. I remember reading it somewhere other than here. Hannan made some snide remarks in interviews about leaving and wasn't fond of the coaching staff.

 

[Iron Chef]

Prior to the Parise and Suter deals, the thought process between DW and Fletcher was that Coyle was supposed to be the type of player that helps win a Cup for the Wild a few year's down the line when he hit his prime. Burns was supposed to be the player that helps the Sharks win the Cup before their window closes. Fletcher just lucked out that Parise and Suter decided to have a bromance and hold each others hands as they signed those contracts. Those 2 are responsible for taking off 1-2 years of the Wild's timeframe for making the playoffs.

Burns has been outstanding for us. The people who think we lost the trade because Burns is playing forward right now are absolutely close minded. Yeah, because Burns is so versatile that he can play both positions, we lost the trade. Give me a break.

 

[OrrNumber4]

No this was in a few articles or something.. I remember reading it somewhere other than here. Hannan made some snide remarks in interviews about leaving and wasn't fond of the coaching staff.

He didn't like the direction of the team. Possibly, Hannan blamed some of his own struggles post-lockout on the team's "up-tempo" style. In reality, Hannan's play wasn't suited to the new NHL; the ice was opening up everywhere and teams were capitalizing on it. Hannan had made a name for himself as a stalwart defensive defenseman as he used hooking/holding/interference exceptionally well. When those tools became illegal, Hannan didn't adapt very well.

Plus, think of it this way. SJ, at that point, had Carle and Ehrhoff, both younger and more suited to the new NHL than Hannan. Tank Murray comes into the picture and is an instant fan favorite who can move the puck well. Then, Vlasic comes along, and at 19 is looking like the next Nick Lidstrom. To add insult to injury, the Sharks added Rivet at the deadline. Hannan probably didn't like that. To boot, he was now the defenseman with the worse puck-moving skills on the team after Rob Davison.

 

[Wedontneedroads]

The Sharks had the 3rd best record in the league last year after 41 games. They collapse in the 2nd half of the season and barely make the playoffs. They lose to the Blues in 5 games in the quickest playoff exit in the franchise's history.

Two words: Tennis Series.

This entire team has been on a downward trend ever since they blew their best opportunities at a Cup from 06-09. Chicago was better in 10, Vancouver slightly better in 11, and STL was clearly better last year winning 8/9 games.

I talk about it with friends all the time, but I'm getting real annoyed with the lack of creativity on this team. The NHL as a whole has become such a defensive and checking league, and I really don't think that bodes well for the Sharks. They are not offensively creative at all, and with teams playing such tough defense they are clearly struggling to score.

This group needs an infusion of young talent that can bring new life to a dying core group of players. Unfortunately when you look at what young talent is in the pipeline it's pretty scarce.

 

[ChompChomp]

I read this a lot but I wonder where it came from. What reason would Hannan have for hating Wilson? Wilson had nothing but praise for Hannan. Saying Hannan hated Wilson is silly because you could say that about anybody on the Sharks roster when he was coaching.

You could say the emergence of Vlasic and the acquisition of Rivet made Hannan expendable.

I've heard the whole RW/Hannan strife a lot (from quasi-inside sources too), and also people who attended practices with RW/Hannan can attest to RW's riding Hannan hard. It is speculation, but this is the speculated reason that he so quickly signed with another team when he became UFA.

 

[ChompChomp]

Two words: Tennis Series.

The tennis series (being swept by Wings in 94-95) was in the 2nd round. Last year's quick exit vs. Blues was the fastest the Sharks were out of the playoffs. The statement you highlighted was correct.

 

[Wedontneedroads]

The tennis series (being swept by Wings in 94-95) was in the 2nd round. Last year's quick exit vs. Blues was the fastest the Sharks were out of the playoffs. The statement you highlighted was correct.

I read it as quickest series exit. My mistake.

That was the worst series I have ever seen in Sharks history. Absolutely 0 chance.