TSN: Laine cleared to return from Player Assistance Program

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

One thing for certain, Waddell wants this done before camp....don't think he wants camp to be a $hitshow with a Laine holdout.......that would devalue the kid even more.

How many teams have been calling? 8.7M is a chunk of the cap for sure...

There wouldn't be a holdout, he's already signed

I imagine the conversations have been "we'll try to find a trade partner ASAP, but the easiest way for us to do that is for you to start the season off strong in Columbus and prove you are the same player who paced for ~80 points in 2021-22 and 2022-23".

Laine knows sitting out would make it pretty much impossible to trade him.

 

[Double Dion]

The top post is only an 18 game sample size in which he was coming back from a concussion. The season before his defense was more than fine.

You're incorrect. The 4.8 GA/60 at ES is his entire time in Columbus.

 

[TageGod]

Since Adams made comments that he's looking for a top 6 forward, has previously thought to have scouted Columbus for several seasons outside of just the Robinson deal... I could see Buffalo thinking hard about this and offering something like Rosen and high draft pick, maybe something like a lottery protected first.

Doesn't sound too bad, but he cant stay in the lineup. Price is steep for his risk. You are looking at probably half a season. Even if he is good to go, probably gets hurt again.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You're incorrect. The 4.8 GA/60 at ES is his entire time in Columbus.

That's incorrect, they are the numbers from his first year with the team, not the actual average.

His ES GA/60 during his time in Columbus is 4.19
His 5v5 GA/60 is 3.32

From 2021-22 to 2022-23 he had the best rel GF% at 5v5 of any CBJ player with >500 5v5 mins:

 

[Chainshot]

Doesn't sound too bad, but he cant stay in the lineup. Price is steep for his risk. You are looking at probably half a season. Even if he is good to go, probably gets hurt again.

Eh, there is no guarantee that he plays but there is also no guarantee he doesn't. As has been pointed out, his injury issues appear to be discrete.

 

[TageGod]

Eh, there is no guarantee that he plays but there is also no guarantee he doesn't. As has been pointed out, his injury issues appear to be discrete.

Were quickly running out of assets if we make that deal. I would want something more reliable for those assets. The upside is nice though, but we could have just kept Skinner if we wanted one dimensional offense.

 

[Chainshot]

Were quickly running out of assets if we make that deal. I would want something more reliable for those assets. The upside is nice though, but we could have just kept Skinner if we wanted one dimensional offense.

Hardly. They still have an entire second line in development and almost all of their depth folks still developing with almost no open roster spots on the big club.

 

[pantherbot]

Spencer Knight for Laine 50% retained?

 

[TageGod]

Hardly. They still have an entire second line in development and almost all of their depth folks still developing with almost no open roster spots on the big club.

Of our prospects I only think Benson and Helenius could be top 6 players long term. Kulich Ostlund Wahlberg sounds like a great third line though. If Laine doesn't work out what is next?

Anyways, the point is the downside is too much to be worth the risk. Look for a safer option unless he is cheaper. Or better yet, have CNJ showcase him and trade him at the deadline, then I might sign up for him and they will get much more value as well.

 

[Chainshot]

Of our prospects I only think Benson and Helenius could be top 6 players long term. Kulich Ostlund Wahlberg sounds like a great third line though. If Laine doesn't work out what is next?

How many potential top 6 forwards do you think they need?

Anyways, the point is the downside is too much to be worth the risk. Look for a safer option unless he is cheaper. Or better yet, have CNJ showcase him and trade him at the deadline, then I might sign up for him and they will get much more value as well.

I don't like the risk either. But I could see them making this sort of move.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Of our prospects I only think Benson and Helenius could be top 6 players long term. Kulich Ostlund Wahlberg sounds like a great third line though. If Laine doesn't work out what is next?

Anyways, the point is the downside is too much to be worth the risk. Look for a safer option unless he is cheaper. Or better yet, have CNJ showcase him and trade him at the deadline, then I might sign up for him and they will get much more value as well.

You don't think Kulich and Ostlund could be top 6 players??

 

[TageGod]

You don't think Kulich and Ostlund could be top 6 players??

Honestly, no. I could always be wrong but that's my opinion.

How many potential top 6 forwards do you think they need?



I don't like the risk either. But I could see them making this sort of move.

Really, one. I think Benson needs another year to get there, but I would like a two year addition until Skinners big cap hit. That player moves out (or someone else) and Benson slides up.

I don't know if I like Adams pushing for this trade, he could get burned, and fired. Then again, he could get fired anyways, so if Laine is his last/best option do it.

 

[Gaud]

Mtl needs a top 6 winger and has enough cap to make something work.

I'll be honest - im not that into him. Was it Sheifele that had come out and questioned his commitment to the team? Wheeler perhaps. Dont know much abot his work ethic, though, or if that changed, but i dont think that fits within what Mtl is building right now.

What was the reason for him to request player assistance? I thought it was about mental health or pressure but i read some posts in another board about substance abuse of some kind. I'd be concerned for Laine to play in Montreal if it is one of those.

Who knows? 2 years isn't an amount of time that interferes with Mtl's progression if we are wrong, and if the gamble works (at worse), Kent Hughes may turn this into another Monahan type deal at the TDL in 18 months.

 

[Double Dion]

That's incorrect, they are using simple averages.

His ES GA/60 during his time in Columbus is 4.19
His 5v5 GA/60 is 3.32

From 2021-22 to 2022-23 he had the best rel GF% at 5v5 of any CBJ player with >500 5v5 mins:

View attachment 897734

NHL Rate Metrics​

• The NHL Extra-Stats table is calculated based off of play-by-play, which might have slight discrepancies with official totals
• Share & Export
  • Modify, Export & Share Table
  • Get as Excel Workbook
  • Get table as CSV (for Excel)
  • Get Link to Table
  • About Sharing Tools
  • Video: SR Sharing Tools & How-to
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  • Data Usage Terms
• Glossary

All
Even Strength
Power Play
Short-Handed
5-on-5
5-on-5 Close
5-on-5 Tied

			Corsi (EV)	Fenwick (EV)
Season	Age	Team	Lg	GP	G/60	A/60	A1/60	A2/60	PTS/60	S/60	oiGF/60	oiGA/60	CF/60	CA/60	C/60	FF/60	FA/60	F/60
2016-17	18	WPG	NHL	73	1.5	1.2	0.6	0.7	2.7	7.9	3.9	3.3	52.8	55.7	-2.9	40.6	41.9	-1.3
2017-18	19	WPG	NHL	82	1.3	0.8	0.4	0.4	2.1	9.1	3.3	2.6	60.1	59.7	0.4	44.8	44.6	0.2
2018-19	20	WPG	NHL	82	0.8	0.6	0.5	0.1	1.4	8.0	2.7	3.7	54.1	63.1	-9.0	40.9	48.0	-7.1
2019-20	21	WPG	NHL	68	1.1	1.5	0.8	0.7	2.6	9.2	3.7	3.1	56.3	60.0	-3.7	43.0	48.7	-5.7
2020-21	22	TOT	NHL	46	0.7	0.8	0.4	0.3	1.5	5.0	2.4	4.8	44.5	58.8	-14.4	34.4	45.5	-11.1
2020-21	22	WPG	NHL	1	9.1	0.0	0.0	0.0	9.1	13.7	9.1	4.6	45.5	59.2	-13.7	41.0	31.9	9.1
2020-21	22	CBJ	NHL	45	0.5	0.8	0.4	0.3	1.3	4.9	2.3	4.8	44.5	58.8	-14.4	34.3	45.8	-11.5
2021-22	23	CBJ	NHL	56	1.5	1.5	0.7	0.8	2.9	8.2	3.7	3.9	54.5	61.5	-7.0	41.6	49.5	-7.9
2022-23	24	CBJ	NHL	55	1.0	1.5	1.0	0.6	2.5	8.4	3.0	3.5	63.2	60.3	2.8	46.2	46.2	0.0
2023-24	25	CBJ	NHL	18	1.4	0.5	0.5	0.0	1.9	6.8	3.5	6.2	57.6	69.2	-11.6	42.7	48.1	-5.4
4 yrs		CBJ	NHL	174							2.3	4.8
5 yrs		WPG	NHL	306							3.9	3.3
Career			NHL	526							3.2	3.7

 

[TaketheCannoli]

After reading through much of this thread, it's clear Laine has no value if not negative value. Columbus should be forced to keep him until his contract expires, at which point he will have to retire because no team, not even a KHL or Euro League team will sign him.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

NHL Rate Metrics​

• The NHL Extra-Stats table is calculated based off of play-by-play, which might have slight discrepancies with official totals
• Share & Export
  • Modify, Export & Share Table
  • Get as Excel Workbook
  • Get table as CSV (for Excel)
  • Get Link to Table
  • About Sharing Tools
  • Video: SR Sharing Tools & How-to
  • Video: Stats Table Tips & Tricks
  • Data Usage Terms
• Glossary

All
Even Strength
Power Play
Short-Handed
5-on-5
5-on-5 Close
5-on-5 Tied

			Corsi (EV)	Fenwick (EV)
Season	Age	Team	Lg	GP	G/60	A/60	A1/60	A2/60	PTS/60	S/60	oiGF/60	oiGA/60	CF/60	CA/60	C/60	FF/60	FA/60	F/60
2016-17	18	WPG	NHL	73	1.5	1.2	0.6	0.7	2.7	7.9	3.9	3.3	52.8	55.7	-2.9	40.6	41.9	-1.3
2017-18	19	WPG	NHL	82	1.3	0.8	0.4	0.4	2.1	9.1	3.3	2.6	60.1	59.7	0.4	44.8	44.6	0.2
2018-19	20	WPG	NHL	82	0.8	0.6	0.5	0.1	1.4	8.0	2.7	3.7	54.1	63.1	-9.0	40.9	48.0	-7.1
2019-20	21	WPG	NHL	68	1.1	1.5	0.8	0.7	2.6	9.2	3.7	3.1	56.3	60.0	-3.7	43.0	48.7	-5.7
2020-21	22	TOT	NHL	46	0.7	0.8	0.4	0.3	1.5	5.0	2.4	4.8	44.5	58.8	-14.4	34.4	45.5	-11.1
2020-21	22	WPG	NHL	1	9.1	0.0	0.0	0.0	9.1	13.7	9.1	4.6	45.5	59.2	-13.7	41.0	31.9	9.1
2020-21	22	CBJ	NHL	45	0.5	0.8	0.4	0.3	1.3	4.9	2.3	4.8	44.5	58.8	-14.4	34.3	45.8	-11.5
2021-22	23	CBJ	NHL	56	1.5	1.5	0.7	0.8	2.9	8.2	3.7	3.9	54.5	61.5	-7.0	41.6	49.5	-7.9
2022-23	24	CBJ	NHL	55	1.0	1.5	1.0	0.6	2.5	8.4	3.0	3.5	63.2	60.3	2.8	46.2	46.2	0.0
2023-24	25	CBJ	NHL	18	1.4	0.5	0.5	0.0	1.9	6.8	3.5	6.2	57.6	69.2	-11.6	42.7	48.1	-5.4
4 yrs		CBJ	NHL	174							2.3	4.8
5 yrs		WPG	NHL	306							3.9	3.3
Career			NHL	526							3.2	3.7

You see how impossibly wrong the numbers there are right?

Like, how's he averaging only 2.3 GF/60 over his 4 year CBJ career when his individual season totals were 2.3, 3.7, 3.0, and 3.5?

It looks like they just grabbed the numbers from his first season there and called them his 4 year average. They made the same mistake with his Winnipeg numbers. You can see the error again if you toggle to 5v5.

Hockey reference is apparently in need of some QA.

 

[Double Dion]

You see how impossibly wrong the numbers there are right?

Like, how's he averaging only 2.3 GF/60 over his 4 year CBJ career when his individual season totals were 2.3, 3.7, 3.0, and 3.5?

It looks like they just grabbed the numbers from his first season there and called them his 4 year average. They made the same mistake with his Winnipeg numbers. You can see the error again if you toggle to 5v5.

Hockey reference is apparently in need of some QA.

Actually yes, you're correct. I do see that. Those numbers can't possibly be correct. I didn't check them thoroughly.

I mean watching Laine though. Do you think he's a decent defensive player? I don't see how anyone could watch him and think he's anything other than horrific defensively. I do think he's a better offensive player than those numbers suggest, but I think the defensive work is atrocious.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Actually yes, you're correct. I do see that. Those numbers can't possibly be correct. I didn't check them thoroughly.

I don't blame you for not double checking, you would hope that a site like hockey reference would know how to reliably compute averages.

I mean watching Laine though. Do you think he's a decent defensive player? I don't see how anyone could watch him and think he's anything other than horrific defensively. I do think he's a better offensive player than those numbers suggest, but I think the defensive work is atrocious.

His overall defensive game is not great, but it's better than I think his reputation suggests. His defensive zone coverage is actually pretty solid, he's got a good stick, and he's strong on the puck along the boards. But he makes a lot of questionable decisions with the puck in dangerous areas that result in bad turnovers, and his footspeed is a bit slow which can lead to him getting beat off the blue line by more mobile dmen, and his back checking can be pretty meh at times if he's not fully engaged.

I'd probably give him a D+/C- for his overall defensive game. It's pretty bad but I have definitely seen worse. If he could just simplify with the puck around the blue lines I think he'd be closer to average.

 

[Treb]

I think that that's potentially competitive, but that we'd be looking for different types of players if possible (or more value if we can get it) and so would consider circling back around to it.

For the roster player or the prospect?

 

[Diaspora]

Since Adams made comments that he's looking for a top 6 forward, has previously thought to have scouted Columbus for several seasons outside of just the Robinson deal... I could see Buffalo thinking hard about this and offering something like Rosen and high draft pick, maybe something like a lottery protected first.

A roster forward would have to go out in the deal. I'd say Greenway because he'd be pushed down from the third line and doesn't really fit in with what Adams is trying to do with the fourth. If Columbus is looking for stay-at-home D prospects, I could see adding one of Novikov, Strbak or Komarov instead of Rosen.

The bigger the package gets, the more salary one would expect CBJ to retain.

 

[Xoggz22]

Actually yes, you're correct. I do see that. Those numbers can't possibly be correct. I didn't check them thoroughly.

I mean watching Laine though. Do you think he's a decent defensive player? I don't see how anyone could watch him and think he's anything other than horrific defensively. I do think he's a better offensive player than those numbers suggest, but I think the defensive work is atrocious.

I said it in an earlier post...he's never going to be a Selke finalist, however, I have been a Day 1 season ticket holder and watched most of his games live. His improvement is dramatic in the last two years (I'm discounting 18 games last year as many were as a center and the injuries, etc - not sure it's a fair representation but if that's what others pull...it's real, he played). I think the biggest point is his actual effort to get back into the defensive zone after turning the puck over (usually him at the offensive blue line - that's his terrible habit of carrying the puck rather than letting it do the work). He also holds the defensive zone a lot longer before heading up ice.

I'm sure it sounds like excuses but the other factor that I can't help but point out if the last 3 years of coaching. First year head coaches in Larson and Vincent, the latter of which had 4 days prior to camp to prepare for the season. He used Babcocks system with minor tweaks on the fly. The team didn't pick it up until at least midway through the season. Long after Laine was gone. Maybe it doesn't matter, but the coaching the team and the systems have been brutal for 3 years now.

Again, no Selke finalist but when I watch the effort and the change to try... I think a stable system with better support around him changes both his offensive and defensive game. Granted, if he can't stay healthy it really doesn't matter and I think that's the biggest question mark right now. His physical and mental health going into next year. Point is...he's not the player many on here think and when you have been as bad as the CBJ has been, in my opinion, it's hard to just use what you see on paper to support an argument either way. His on ice improvement is noticeable and his change from shoot first to involve teammates....needs to go. Use your elite skill Patrik! That's shoot the friggin' puck

 

[Diaspora]

Were quickly running out of assets if we make that deal. I would want something more reliable for those assets. The upside is nice though, but we could have just kept Skinner if we wanted one dimensional offense.

Laine isn't as one-dimensional as Skinner and Sabres have a ton of assets.

 

[Viqsi]

For the roster player or the prospect?

Both. Our prospect center depth is excellent, our roster center depth was shored up with adding Monahan, and we have more offensive and "two way" defensemen than we know wha tto do with.

 

[Treb]

Both. Our prospect center depth is excellent, our roster center depth was shored up with adding Monahan, and we have more offensive and "two way" defensemen than we know wha tto do with.

So.... Armia and Mesar/Farrell/Heineman?

If Mesar, I'd probably push the 1st to a 2nd or want a 3rd/4th back.

 

[Viqsi]

So.... Armia and Mesar/Farrell/Heineman?

If Mesar, I'd probably push the 1st to a 2nd or want a 3rd/4th back.

We also have a bit too many wingers in the system. That's been slightly cleared up with recent moves by Waddell but there's still a lot to sort through. What we really need is shutdown defense.