Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[Herby]

BTW, Kopitar is making $7M this season and next season. Nobody seems to remember this.

I understand that, but it really only matter to AEG bean-counters.

We as fans are discussing the cap situation, not the actual dollars. I don't remember, but were people being critical of Kopitar the years he was making $13 or $12m or whatever it was?

Wasn't Richards making like $3-4m at the end of his deal, but for the Kings cap it was still $5.5

 

[kinghock]

Then we have to be the 1st one.
You guys always point to what other teams are doing, which i simply don't care about.
I am following the Kings

We have Kempe, who has proven that he can score 30+ goals
Fiala was added who has scored 30+ goals
Kaliev has the potential to score 30 goals and Fagemo is looking like he has an even higher goal potential than Kaliev.

It is absolutely not unrealistic to end up with four 30 goal scoring winger in the near future especially if we add another one by trade or UFA like Pastrnak, Meier or Bertuzzi



You are missing the point of 4 wingers on the top 6

Then we have to be the 1st one.
You guys always point to what other teams are doing, which i simply don't care about.
I am following the Kings

We have Kempe, who has proven that he can score 30+ goals
Fiala was added who has scored 30+ goals
Kaliev has the potential to score 30 goals and Fagemo is looking like he has an even higher goal potential than Kaliev.

It is absolutely not unrealistic to end up with four 30 goal scoring winger in the near future especially if we add another one by trade or UFA like Pastrnak, Meier or Bertuzzi



You are missing the point of 4 wingers on the top 6

Fagemo do not have higher goal potential than Kaliev.
Did you watch him in AHL last year?
He is third liner at best case scenario.

 

[Herby]

There is zero problem with what Kopitar is doing or has done, the problem was that signing him to that extension guaranteed a prolonged period of stagnation before the inevitable descent and prohibited progress from occuring as quickly as it could have otherwise. There was no other outcome remotely as likely as what actually happened here.

So, pay the man what he is definitely worth and let the team suffer for it for over half a decade, or be proactive and move on, likely suffering for less time. Sign him or trade him, either way the team was going to be worse off in the then coming years, but trading him afforded the opportunity of a rebuild much faster than what happened.

As a fan I would much rather have a proactive management team that puts faith in their decisions than one who inherited a mess and doubled-down on it.

Why was there a guaranteed period of prolonged stagnation?

Is there stagnation if the Kings don't trade the pick that was Barzal for a garbage rental?
Is there stagnation if the Kings draft Nick Suzuki?
Is there stagnation if the Kings draft Trevor Zegras?
is there stagnation if the Kings don't make the Cernak trade?
is there stagnation if the Kings don't hire John Stevens?

You are placing a lot of the blame for the organizations struggles on one-player. Pittsburgh remained competitive because they made a couple of really nice draft picks and didn't make disaster moves like the Kings made.

Dean Lombardi had one of the worst 3 year runs by any GM in NHL history from June 2014 until he was fired in April 2017. If you want to look to why the organization was in the toilet look that way, not at AK and DD.

 

[KingsFan7824]

There is zero problem with what Kopitar is doing or has done, the problem was that signing him to that extension guaranteed a prolonged period of stagnation before the inevitable descent and prohibited progress from occuring as quickly as it could have otherwise. There was no other outcome remotely as likely as what actually happened here.

So, pay the man what he is definitely worth and let the team suffer for it for over half a decade, or be proactive and move on, likely suffering for less time. Sign him or trade him, either way the team was going to be worse off in the then coming years, but trading him afforded the opportunity of a rebuild much faster than what happened.

As a fan I would much rather have a proactive management team that puts faith in their decisions than one who inherited a mess and doubled-down on it.

Trade him when?

 

[Schrute farms]

 

[Kurrilino]

And again, NOT ONE f***ING TEAM HAS THAT......

There is this thing, called SALARY CAP.,.....maybe you heard of it?

Or do you support paying wings that are producing, at a quarter of their value?

We will be the 1st one then, no problem

Kempe plays for 6.5 mill and Fiala for 7.8.
I would use this as value to compare other players against.
Let's say 8 mill each by 4 winger is 32 mill. This is more than reasonable and if another player is asking for more, he can play somewhere else.
Danauld is getting 5.5 and i would rate him nice 2nd line center. He almost scored 30 goals and his missing point production will be tolerated by him asking for only 5 mill
Let's assume for a moment that Byfield will raise up to his potential within 2-3 years, he won't ask for more than 8 mill long term

That is a high scoring top 6 for 45 mill max
I can absolutely live with that since we are paying as much right now for our top 6 playing like garbage

 

[Maynard]

There's a reason why Kurrilino was never taken seriously around these parts, and he's reminding us as to why that is.

It’s obvious that there’s something wrong with him but I can’t help smile when I see his posts. Like a mascot that doesn’t have all his marbles but you love him anyway. He’s kind of like Chris Sutter.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

We will be the 1st one then, no problem

Kempe plays for 6.5 mill and Fiala for 7.8.
I would use this as value to compare other players against.
Let's say 8 mill each by 4 winger is 32 mill. This is more than reasonable and if another player is asking for more, he can play somewhere else.
Danauld is getting 5.5 and i would rate him nice 2nd line center. He almost scored 30 goals and his missing point production will be tolerated by him asking for only 5 mill
Let's assume for a moment that Byfield will raise up to his potential within 2-3 years, he won't ask for more than 8 mill long term

That is a high scoring top 6 for 45 mill max
I can absolutely live with that since we are paying as much right now for our top 6 playing like garbage

So 32 million for the wingers.....add in another 10 million for 1C, and 7 million for 2C.....and 8-10M for 1 D and 5M for 1G for a grand total of 62 million for 8 players......

Great f***ing job lmao...jesus....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Why is LA’s development path so much different from every other team? You say “individual needs” all the time. What about Byfield and Turcotte’s individual needs made it optimal for their development to play in the AHL as teenagers? Turcotte’s college teammate, who was a far better player as a freshman was told by his NHL team to go back to school. Cale Makar went back to school, Matt Boldy went back to school, Matty Beniers went back to school, Quinn Hughes went back to school. I just struggle to understand what “individual needs” warranted that promotion to the pro level.

Have the results been as good so far as teams that use more traditional means of development? I know you hate to deal with results, but in hindsight would you change each of those decisions based on the results since then?

What is a reasonable expectation to where a #11, #5 and #2 picks should be entering their D+6, D+4 and D+3’s?

You think I am being unreasonable expecting *one* of them to be a 2C by now? I’m not expecting all of them, but is one of them really being unreasonable?

Because that's what LA did their entire history, throw prospects in the deep end....then trade them for shit when they fizzle out, and you are advocating doing the same thing......

Again you seem to not understand the term invidiual......again, not a one size fits all....

You struggle to understand it, because you don't understand individual, and I'm willing to bet, you've never talked to these prospcts so of course you wouldn't know, I don't know either, but I'm not the one acting like there is only one way.....

 

[Kurrilino]

So 32 million for the wingers.....add in another 10 million for 1C, and 7 million for 2C.....and 8-10M for 1 D and 5M for 1G for a grand total of 62 million for 8 players......

Great f***ing job lmao...jesus....

Did you even read what i wrote or are you just babbling random nonsense?

Right under the 32 for the wingers, it reads 5.5 for Danauld and at max 8 mill for Byfield long term if he shows signs of a 1st line center which ads up to 45 mill.
All this will mostly be cheaper since i see Kaliev more in the 6-7 mill range, so 43 mill is more likely.

 

[Kurrilino]

Trade him when?

The year before his contract ended

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Did you even read what i wrote or are you just babbling random nonsense?

Right under the 32 for the wingers, it reads 5.5 for Danauld and at max 8 mill for Byfield long term if he shows signs of a 1st line center which ads up to 45 mill.
All this will mostly be cheaper since i see Kaliev more in the 6-7 mill range, so 43 mill is more likely.

LOL Absolutely f***ing clueless.......so....you want your top 2 Centers...to be a PPG........and pay them 5.5 million........show me how many PPG centers there are making that? Please?

 

[Sol]

The problem is not that Kopitar is making $10m as a 2C talent over the final 2 years of his contract. That is the way it works for star players in their final couple of years of their big $$ contracts. (Another reason it’s better to give 8 years at 22 or 23 than it is at 26 or 27)

It’s that the Kings don’t have a potential 1C or probably even a potential 2C this season out of any of the three centers they drafted high between 2017-2020.

Kopitar is made the scapegoat for organizational mistakes when all he did was age. Some people here (especially in GDT’s) seem angry that Anze Kopitar is not aging like Tom Brady, and that is not fair.

I think most of the problem comes from the way he’s used. Kopitar is being played like a 28 year old in his prime if you look at his deployment. I think if Todd did more to limit his icetime you’d see a better Kopitar on the ice. Kopitar is not young and can’t take the minutes he’s being given. It’s not even up to debate that he’s not only being overplayed. He’s being extremely overplayed. He burns out so visibly.

When most people were cheering about Kopitar game 1 everyone acted like he suddenly turned it on. He played great game 1 after a week off and then was a complete mess all the games after. A rested Kopitar is a really solid player as seen by game 1. But there’s no way he can keep that up
And end up not becoming a detriment to the team.

The biggest challenge this year is Byfield taking a next step and he’s looked pretty good so far this pre season. But another MAJOR hurdle is Todd trusting the young players. His lack of trust was a big downfall for the team.

 

[Kurrilino]

Fagemo do not have higher goal potential than Kaliev.
Did you watch him in AHL last year?
He is third liner at best case scenario.

He almost tripled his rookie season output from 10 goals to 27
Fagemo is a pure goal scorer who doesn't do much else and i like it that way.
I expect around 40 goals next AHL season and then being moved to the big club
If nothing to weird will happen to him, i see him easily become a 30 goal scorer.

He showed more in his short AHL career than Kempe ever did

 

[Kurrilino]

LOL Absolutely f***ing clueless.......so....you want your top 2 Centers...to be a PPG........and pay them 5.5 million........show me how many PPG centers there are making that? Please?

Mackinnon makes 6 mill but he scores way more than PPG
Jt Miller 5.2 mill
Pavelski 5.5
Kadri 7 mill

Do you need more?

And again the reading issues
I mentioned 5.5 for Danauld and budgeted 8 mill for Byfield for the case me makes it.
You have a real issue with selective reading.

I really have no problem paying top dollars for a player but the return must also be to notch

 

[Sol]

One of the things @KINGS17 and I agree on that would make all of the above totally fine is non-guaranteed contracts...but unfortunately we'd never see that.





He's not an 'impressive' player, there's very little flash there. He's just super effective all around and above-average at everything but yes, the criticism is what's his pro identity? He's not 'elite' at anything. He is a very good playmaker. The idea is, sort of like JAD, he's a bottom-six guy with intangibles that should be able to move up the lineup with 2nd line upside, think Trevor Lewis. Play just moves forward when he's out there. I would say that makes it a little unfortunate that he's a stereotypical King because people won't appreciate that a decade in (and not sure I blame them/you for that at all).

If they can get fair value sure, trade him, but I think he's gonna be a good deep roster player for cheap when we need it.

Also he didn't look great at this rookie camp but he was fantastic down the stretch for Ontario, I'd encourage you to give him a chance to show out a bit this year in a bigger role with health.

I feel the Kings have enough players who can be depth players. If the Kings were thin on that then maybe.

 

[bland]

Why was there a guaranteed period of prolonged stagnation?

Is there stagnation if the Kings don't trade the pick that was Barzal for a garbage rental?
Is there stagnation if the Kings draft Nick Suzuki?
Is there stagnation if the Kings draft Trevor Zegras?
is there stagnation if the Kings don't make the Cernak trade?
is there stagnation if the Kings don't hire John Stevens?

You are placing a lot of the blame for the organizations struggles on one-player. Pittsburgh remained competitive because they made a couple of really nice draft picks and didn't make disaster moves like the Kings made.

Dean Lombardi had one of the worst 3 year runs by any GM in NHL history from June 2014 until he was fired in April 2017. If you want to look to why the organization was in the toilet look that way, not at AK and DD.

This was discussed as nauseum here and elsewhere, its not in retrospect or looking in the rear view mirror. These are the clif notes from the arguments made at the end of 2015-16:

A decimated asset list with no picks or prospects to trade to improve the current team.

Next to no cost-controlled production. Toffoli and Pearson, that's it. Both of which were dealt.

Limited cap space to use in free agency, later consistently misused on the likes of Cammalleri and Kovalchuk.

The loss of Stoll, Greene, Williams, Richards, Regehr, Scuderi, Mitchell, and King with the only asset in return being a measely mid round pick for King.

A league record of retirement contracts given out or acquired for Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Brown and Quick. That influence and power in a "leadership" group resulted in quitting on two coaches and never showing up for a third.

There was no way to improve a team that lost so much and had holes in most areas of the ice. No money to spend, no capital to use in trade, nothing coming from within in to augment a stagnated, satisfied roster. There was nowhere to go but down. And down they went, even after giving Kopitar and Doughty those extensions. It was always inevitable.

The only question was how long do you chase what cannot be caught before the inevitable rebuild. Blake had the perfect opportunity to use the change in management to sell the rebuild, but tried to double-down by bringing in both Pacioretty and Kovalchuk.

Those decisions cost the team a whole lot of years of nothing, and now that they have the pieces from the rebuild available, they are still choosing to place their faith in a bunch of guys in their mid 30s who only ever got out of the first round when they had all those tremendous leaders brought in by Lombardi.

Seriously, Kopitar, Doughty and Quick have only made it out of the first round three times in their entire careers. Three times, never without Sutter, Richards and Mitchell. Not once. So instead of moving on, they buy a series of 2nd line players and tout it as progress.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The year before his contract ended

That's nice. There's no indication DL ever thought about that, so I have no idea why we keep harping on it. As though there was some option or alternative real life scenario. The people in charge weren't going down that road, so it doesn't matter how good of idea it is or was. They weren't trading Kopitar, in June 2015, or Jan 2016, end of story. There's not even a legit rumor of what the Kings could've gotten, because it wasn't going to happen. There was no talk about it.

 

[Kurrilino]

Double Post

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Mackinnon makes 6 mill but he scores way more than PPG
Jt Miller 5.2 mill
Pavelski 5.5
Kadri 7 mill

Do you need more?

And again the reading issues
I mentioned 5.5 for Danauld and budgeted 8 mill for Byfield for the case me makes it.
You have a real issue with selective reading.

I really have no problem paying top dollars for a player but the return must also be to notch

You mean the same MacKinnon that just signed for 12.6 million?

The same JT Miller that is making 8 million?
The same Kadri that is making 7 million after ONE good year?
Same Pavelski that is making 7 million?

Get your shit together

 

[KINGS17]

and which teams have 4 30+ goal scoring wingers?

It might be better to just go with four 30+ goal scoring forwards, but you can look it up here:

NHL Records

records.nhl.com

 

[KingsFan7824]

This was discussed as nauseum here and elsewhere, its not in retrospect or looking in the rear view mirror. These are the clif notes from the arguments made at the end of 2015-16:

A decimated asset list with no picks or prospects to trade to improve the current team.

Next to no cost-controlled production. Toffoli and Pearson, that's it. Both of which were dealt.

Limited cap space to use in free agency, later consistently misused on the likes of Cammalleri and Kovalchuk.

The loss of Stoll, Greene, Williams, Richards, Regehr, Scuderi, Mitchell, and King with the only asset in return being a measely mid round pick for King.

A league record of retirement contracts given out or acquired for Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Brown and Quick. That influence and power in a "leadership" group resulted in quitting on two coaches and never showing up for a third.

There was no way to improve a team that lost so much and had holes in most areas of the ice. No money to spend, no capital to use in trade, nothing coming from within in to augment a stagnated, satisfied roster. There was nowhere to go but down. And down they went, even after giving Kopitar and Doughty those extensions. It was always inevitable.

The only question was how long do you chase what cannot be caught before the inevitable rebuild. Blake had the perfect opportunity to use the change in management to sell the rebuild, but tried to double-down by bringing in both Pacioretty and Kovalchuk.

Those decisions cost the team a whole lot of years of nothing, and now that they have the pieces from the rebuild available, they are still choosing to place their faith in a bunch of guys in their mid 30s who only ever got out of the first round when they had all those tremendous leaders brought in by Lombardi.

Seriously, Kopitar, Doughty and Quick have only made it out of the first round three times in their entire careers. Three times, never without Sutter, Richards and Mitchell. Not once. So instead of moving on, they buy a series of 2nd line players and tout it as progress.

Then we need to reach further back for even more and deeper truth; DL should've waited until the Kings actually won a playoff series before adding Richards. Certainly should not have traded future assets for Carter, who he added to a team on the fringes of a playoff spot in their "contender" year.

That's the heart of it. DL jumped the gun to win, with zero proof the team could win, and ultimately screwed the franchise. Then the additional bad choices post-Cup started with a 10 year contract for a goalie, and those choices never improved after that. The poor judgment wasn't just confined to 2014-2017. That's too easy of an answer.

What DL did was, put them closer to a Cup(eventually, because that 11-12 season was rocky), but further away from a true dynasty. One with actual dominance. Which is what he wanted to build. As evidenced by all the Red Wing and Yankee talk. Instead, he built the just get in Kings.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Because that's what LA did their entire history, throw prospects in the deep end....then trade them for shit when they fizzle out, and you are advocating doing the same thing......

Olli Jokinen comes to mind....(not that they traded him for shit obviously)

And in case anyone missed my previous post on Olli...it took him 300+ NHL games to become a premier center in the league. That's FOUR full seasons....and people like Herby have written Byfield off as a bust after 40 games, lol.

 

[KINGS17]

Well it has been a while since the Kings were a contender, it will take more time and they may suffer a setback as Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick continue to decline or are no longer on the roster.

...and sometimes it feels like:

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Olli Jokinen comes to mind....

And in case anyone missed my previous post on Olli...it took him 300+ NHL games to become a premier center in the league. That's FOUR full seasons....and people like Herby have written Byfield off as a bust after 40 games, lol.

Jokinen, McBean, Sydor, Berg, those are just the 1st rounders......