Hard to compare eras, we can only measure individuals vs their peers. At the time, that was the highest level before pro, and he was selected captain of that cream of the crop.
Good leaders are always good leaders, regardless of era or circumstances
Rumor: Kyper: Dermott and Holl available for a trade
- Thread starter ottomaddox
- Start date
Good leaders are always good leaders, regardless of era or circumstances
Perspective is important, right? In this case, from the perspective of Justin Holl and his agent, this is a great deal! Pucking spectacular! They were able to leverage half a years work over 3 seasons to THREE years guaranteed NHL money at more than double the annual salary he’d been earning previous.
But from the Maple Leafs side, that’s the kind of deal some agents may have in mind when they vote the GM as the one they’d most like to negotiate with to get their client paid (poll was taken shortly after the extension if memory serves)
Ask fans of every team how their prospects look and you'll get something similar from them all.
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Do you remember planning the next great dynasty when the Leafs had Canadian World Junior Gold medalists in Justin Pogge, Brendan Bell, Ian White, Carlo Coliacovo, Matt Stajan and Kyle Wellwood?
Some kids just never learn.
You know you're reaching when you include SDA and Hollowell as guys with 'realistic NHL potential'
SeaOfBlue
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NGL, if the Leafs consistently got returns like the 2002 draft, I wouldn't complain.
Steen was a quality top 6 forward for almost a decade, while Stajan was a fairly good 3C for a long time.
If we are consistently getting one top 6/4 guy and one other solid regular every draft, we are doing better than most teams. Then it comes down to finding some truly special players and goalies, because if we can do that, then we are really hitting it big... Especially when we also do well finding some guys for free.
For 2018, if Sandin can become a legit top 4 defenseman and at least one of Kral, Holmberg, or SDA becomes some kind of regular, that is a solid draft in my book. Especially if the other two become solid, cheap depth guys for us. The guy running the draft left 3 weeks before, and we have already used Durzi to get Muzzin.
For 2019, if Robertson can become a legit top 6 winger and at least one of Kokkonen, Abramov, Abruzzese, or Koster becomes a solid regular, then I am happy with that draft too.
2020/2021: Let's hope for at least 2 of Knies, Amirov, and Niemela becoming top 6/4 guys, with at least two of Hirvonen, Voit, Miettinen, Villeneuve, Tverberg, etc. becoming something.
I think the Leafs' prospects can hit those thresholds consistently, but after analyzing drafts for years, there are still many things they can do to improve their drafting.
And don’t consider that every team has players they think were late round steals. Remember Jerry D’Amigo, being pencilled in on future top 6 lineups? That was funny, too.
Perspective is important.
stickty111
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Except in our case our prospects have been progressing or most of them have. You can't really say that about other past regimes. Not really meant towards you, but some of the users won't give Dubas credit here because it makes their hero Mark Hunter look bad.
That’s a lot of ‘ifs’
I’ve learned to wait and see. It can take 5+ years for any clarity in the draft classes. I care about who you pick, but also want to see who you missed. It’s too soon to tell with any Dubas pick.
Oh, it's definitely better than Hunter, that I can say confidently.
It's more a comment on fans of teams liking their prospects more than they probably should. Take a step back, give them some time and see what you have, some will look good then turn into nothing, some will take a step or two but get stuck at some point, some will come out of nowhere and explode in their development. In the end most won't make it.
Ritchie is flopping hard. He just doesn't skate with any urgency at all. That is a player that needs to be moved asap.
stickty111
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The thing that is awful is some bend over backwards to rip on Dubas, and won't give him credit for anything. Sometimes it's pure ignorance, and sometimes it's too defend either Lou or super scout Hunter. The hilarious is part is no team wants to hire super scout Hunter, and the excuse made for him was "he wanted to stay in the OHL". That was a joke and still is. If super scout Hunter wanted to stay in the OHL, why was he considered for the Oilers job? You'd think they would know he wanted to stay in the OHL, and not consider him? He came here and our scouting department became awful even more then it was.
Another hilarious part of the anti Dubas group was they will blame him for things not even his fault. When Liljegren wasn't working out, they said that was Dubas's pick when everyone knows thats Hunter's guy. Wonder if they will now say it's Hunter's pick now that Liljegren is doing well.
Every thread we can't even a in topic discussion. Someone says "wow look how bad Dubas is".
Another hilarious part of the anti Dubas group was they will blame him for things not even his fault. When Liljegren wasn't working out, they said that was Dubas's pick when everyone knows thats Hunter's guy. Wonder if they will now say it's Hunter's pick now that Liljegren is doing well.
Every thread we can't even a in topic discussion. Someone says "wow look how bad Dubas is".
stickty111
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I completely agree. Even the guys doing well aren't guaranteed to make it. What we can hope is progress enough to make it. Pretty easu question. Would we prefer our prospects showing progress or the other way around? Answer is obvious. Goal is NHL of course
ACC1224
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i think part of the issue is people look at everything in hindsight ... almost every one of dubas' decisions had some logic behind them at the time .... now, we as fans may disagree with it but that does not mean he is wrong.
and the folks that complain he is a rookie gm and we deserve better .... hmmmm - fletcher part 2, burke, nonis, lou ...... were we any better off?
all very experienced and members of the old boys club ..... and none of them had to deal with a flat cap from the pandemic ....
as fans we all have our impressions of what we'd like the team to do ... but what everyone needs to remember, for a trade to occur it takes 2 teams to agree ...
and the media does not help things, they seem to have tunnelvision on every player, first impressions stay as the mantra of the pundit ...
The Podium
Registered User
I dont think you would get something similar. There is a reason why the Leafs have a middle of the pack prospect pool despite no high picks.
https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/
The Journey: 2021 NHL Prospect Pool Rankings
Ranking all 31 NHL prospect pipelines: Kings leapfrog Rangers for No. 1 spot
Wheeler: 2021 NHL prospect pool rankings
How stupid am I to forget a collection of players that cumulatively played 2,574 games in the NHL.
There is a difference between wanting those guys to be the future, and wanting those guys to be the depth.
Did you forget they were among the last cuts at camp and looked pretty good. Even if they are just depth 3rd/4th liners or a 6/7D thats still realistic NHL potential.
Northernguy10
Registered User
If I'm reading it properly I think the best we can hope for is Ritchie's demotion to the AHL (if his contract allows it) and his contract would now be 2.5 million - 1.075 buried threshold = 1,425,000...I'm sure we could bring someone up better than him for 1,075,000. I couldn't find anything on this contract other than term and dollars so not sure if ha can even be moved to the minors...Hopefully he can.
Seriously?
You want to make a case for Robertson, who was drafted after at 27+28 in 54 game season, then exploded to score 55+31 in 46 games the subsequent year? Absolutely -- he's improved his "in hindsight" draft position of 53rd overall.
Similarly, for Topi Niemla, who was a 3rd round pick that went on to win WJC best defenceman a few months later, and is now leading his finnish team in points, as a 19 year old defenceman.
You could even make a case for Abruzzese, who succesfully transitioned to Harvard and led his team in points as a freshman.
But the rest... they really haven't done all that much to prove that they're better than the spot they were drafted at.... and even these guys -- they've improved a lot since being drafted, but are likely to encounter the "size roadblock" in getting to the NHL.
The unfortunate reality, is that it takes roughly 5 years to tell if a draft was a success or not.... Dubas has been on the job for 3 1/2... and is amongst a group of 17/32 GMs that have been in charge for 3 1/2 years or less.
Hollowell has all the tools to be the next Mikko Lehtonen, the greatest defenseman in the world outside of the NHL.
The Podium
Registered User
Obviously some of them are just progressing well, but a few of them are blowing their draft position out of the water. Robertson, Abruzzese and Niemela for sure but also Holmberg and Tverberg.
Youre not going to acknowledge that Pontus Holmberg won the SHL Conn Smythe equivalent at 21 and is currently leading all U23 players in scoring?
Tverberg, albeit early, is among the top scorers in the NCAA up there with recent 5th overall pick Kent Johnson.
Jokes on you, Pogge was the only one to win gold, the rest were from the the dark years in between streaks.
You do realize that he and his bro make $1.5M per each with Knights in their roles .. their are only a few NHL teams like Leafs who can afford da $1.5M hit .. neither are gonna leave Knights unless they get a substantial bump in pay .. at 3M per it made sense to join Leafs .. then again I do feel bad for Dubie that he was paid so poorly relative to Shanny, Babs and Hunter .. it was not right he was in da hundred of thousands whereas everyone else was in da millions per
The Podium
Registered User
My bad, I should have looked it up. Either way, point is the same.
What point are you making?
That those prospects played 2500+ NHL games and that’s pretty solid for a collection of 5 random prospects?
