Proposal: Krebs for Robertson

[seanlinden]

You just said he maybe has 3C potential and then in the next paragraph suggest he is JT's replacement....seriously come on man.

Lets say Robertson tops out as a 20-30 goal player with about 40-50 points player would you trade that for a player who hasn't done much more than a 4C projection with possible upside to 3C and likely not an elite 3C like Danault. Me?, no thanks I'd rather have the pick or player with more upside (obviously).

I view Krebs as a guy who could possibly be our #3C immediately, with longer term upside as a #2... even if he doesn't quite get to Tavares level. If the Leafs maange the cap correctly, nothing wrong with having 2 "lower end" #2Cs, especially when you have Matthews.

As for Robertson, it's a bit of a catch 22. I believe wholeheartedly that he has the realistic ability to score 30 goals in this league at some point in his career, and put up ~60-65 points. However, I don't believe that's at all likely to happen with him in a Leaf uniform....

So for me, it's not a question of if you should trade him (I've believed they should trade him for a long time), it's just a matter of what you can get for him; and a player with a high draft pedigree, who has been groomed as a solid defensive forward, but put up big assist numbers in Junior, might just be an ideal centre for a guy like William Nylander at 5on5.

 

[seanlinden]

Maybe the Leafs keep him then like the Sabres were forced to with VO. Or maybe the Mariner rumors have some merit and Robertson replaces him in the top 6

Even if Marner is on the way out this year (I don't believe it -- too late in the year to make a move of that magnitude), I honestly don't like Robertson's fit with the remainder of the Leafs top 6.

Domi & Matthews would presumably be stapled together in the event of a Marner departure. On the other wing, I think you have to like the idea of a Matthew Knies in that spot.

William Nylander would then be the focal point of a 2nd line. They'd of course need a centre, but is Nick Robertson really the guy you're going to put on the opposite wing? I feel like you'd again want a bigger body, initial forechecker, type player.

 

[Altimus]

Sounds like Krebs is getting the Lazar treatment so let's hope he doesn't wash out the same.

 

[seanlinden]

This is seriously exaggerated.

Robertson is not competing with Nylander and Marner for prime time ice. He’s competing with the likes of 9-goal scorer Max Domi and grinders like McMann, and Holmberg for a middle-six wing spot. Relying on JAGs like this behind their big guns is one reason why Toronto hasn’t taken that step.

You think Toronto wouldn’t love to have a low-cost kid putting up 40 points for them instead paying a textbook journeyman to do the same thing?

Knies pushed his way in. If Robertson was that good he could have too.

To an extent, he is.

Nick Robertson had 13 even strength goals this year in 56 games, and potted one on the powerplay for 14. He didn't get much in the way of PP time, because of course, the Leafs have a very expensive top unit, and use it a ton.

Consider some of the other players who scored roughly the same number of goals at event strength as Robertson this year:

- Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.

It's far from a stretch to think that if he had been a regular member of the Leafs #1 PP unit, he'd have easily surpassed 20 goals this year.

As for competing with Max Domi, Bobby McMann, Pontus Holmberg and Matthew Knies -- it's imporant to remember that isn't exactly a "fair" competition.

Matthew Knies and Bobby McMann pushed their way into the Leafs top 6, not because they're better players than Robertson -- it's because they play a style that compliments the "fixtures" in the Leafs top 6 -- mainly as the primary forechecker, the guy to be the first one in on the forecheck, winning puck battles, to help free up space for the likes of Matthews, Marner and Nylander to make the magic happen.

That's not Robertson's game. He is simply a far, far, inferior forechecker than Knies and McMann; and he will almost certainly always be an inferior forechecker. He gives up 5-6 inches and a minimum of 30-35 pounds to those 2 guys. Robertson's game is scoring goals, and finding spots in open ice. He was at his best playing with Max Domi, a playmaking centre, and Calle Jarnkrok, a grinding forward more than happy to do the heavy lifting.

Yes, in a perfect world, the Leafs would have Robertson as a consistent third line threat. The challenge is, the Leafs don't really have a strong centre to put with him that can effectively cover for his defensive miscues and also compliment him offensively. It's almost easier to "forego" the incremental 10 goals that he likely gives over a Pontus Holmberg, to not have to worry about defensive lapses, and to get another guy that can go on your PK.

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

To an extent, he is.

Nick Robertson had 13 even strength goals this year in 56 games, and potted one on the powerplay for 14. He didn't get much in the way of PP time, because of course, the Leafs have a very expensive top unit, and use it a ton.

Consider some of the other players who scored roughly the same number of goals at event strength as Robertson this year:

- Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.

It's far from a stretch to think that if he had been a regular member of the Leafs #1 PP unit, he'd have easily surpassed 20 goals this year.

As for competing with Max Domi, Bobby McMann, Pontus Holmberg and Matthew Knies -- it's imporant to remember that isn't exactly a "fair" competition.

Matthew Knies and Bobby McMann pushed their way into the Leafs top 6, not because they're better players than Robertson -- it's because they play a style that compliments the "fixtures" in the Leafs top 6 -- mainly as the primary forechecker, the guy to be the first one in on the forecheck, winning puck battles, to help free up space for the likes of Matthews, Marner and Nylander to make the magic happen.

That's not Robertson's game. He is simply a far, far, inferior forechecker than Knies and McMann; and he will almost certainly always be an inferior forechecker. He gives up 5-6 inches and a minimum of 30-35 pounds to those 2 guys. Robertson's game is scoring goals, and finding spots in open ice. He was at his best playing with Max Domi, a playmaking centre, and Calle Jarnkrok, a grinding forward more than happy to do the heavy lifting.

Yes, in a perfect world, the Leafs would have Robertson as a consistent third line threat. The challenge is, the Leafs don't really have a strong centre to put with him that can effectively cover for his defensive miscues and also compliment him offensively. It's almost easier to "forego" the incremental 10 goals that he likely gives over a Pontus Holmberg, to not have to worry about defensive lapses, and to get another guy that can go on your PK.

Great. Understand.
The Sabres just jettisoned olaffson and skinner who are two players in the mold of your description of Robertson. The Sabres just got a new coach, Ruff who many believe will increase the grittiness of the Sabres play.

 

[Petes2424]

Think it’s pretty safe saying Krebs is the better player right now. I’d be less surprised seeing a Robertson for Berggren in division trade.

Both players need to show their coaches, they can play responsible shifts still. Krebs has been able to do that in the NHL.

Think Buffalo would be doing themselves a disservice moving him now. He’s right around that age and experience level, where he might turn a pretty big page in his NHL career. Unfortunately with the numbers they have, we may end up seeing that transpire in another city though. Simply due to opportunities.

 

[seanlinden]

Great. Understand.
The Sabres just jettisoned olaffson and skinner who are two players in the mold of your description of Robertson. The Sabres just got a new coach, Ruff who many believe will increase the grittiness of the Sabres play.

To be fair, Olofsson is 29 and Skinner 32. They also probably lost on "pure skill" with the Matthew Savoie trade.

We can read into those 3 moves that it's about the Sabres getting bigger / tougher to play against / etc...but there's also a balancing act... and sometimes it's more about creating a different "structure to your forward group -- subtracting skill and adding size in one area, and adding skill and subtracting size in another.

 

[seanlinden]

Think it’s pretty safe saying Krebs is the better player right now. I’d be less surprised seeing a Robertson for Berggren in division trade.

Both players need to show their coaches, they can play responsible shifts still. Krebs has been able to do that in the NHL.

Think Buffalo would be doing themselves a disservice moving him now. He’s right around that age and experience level, where he might turn a pretty big page in his NHL career. Unfortunately with the numbers they have, we may end up seeing that transpire in another city though. Simply due to opportunities.

When you look at both lineups, it does kind of scream that both players would probably fare better on the other team.

Krebs could come in here and have an honest shot at being a #3 centre, and maybe see some ice time with a highly skilled goalscorer like William Nylander. Would probably be just the kick in the ### that his career needs. In Buffalo, he's now seemingly 5th on the centre depth charts, and while he'll probably still find his way into the majority of the games, it's unlikely he's going to get a great opportunity.

Robertson could go into Buffalo into a near-perfect situation for him on the 2nd or 3rd line -- centred by reliable two way guys with size in either Cozens or McLeod. On the other wing, you're looking at the likes of seasoned veteran Jason Zucker, massive size with Jordan Greenway, or maybe a younger guy like Jack Quinn or Zach Benson.

Of course, the possibility also exists that Buffalo mixes things up a bit, and spreads the wealth a little bit with Peterka or Tuch.

 

[Satanphonehome]

To an extent, he is.

Nick Robertson had 13 even strength goals this year in 56 games, and potted one on the powerplay for 14. He didn't get much in the way of PP time, because of course, the Leafs have a very expensive top unit, and use it a ton.

Consider some of the other players who scored roughly the same number of goals at event strength as Robertson this year:

- Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.

It's far from a stretch to think that if he had been a regular member of the Leafs #1 PP unit, he'd have easily surpassed 20 goals this year.

As for competing with Max Domi, Bobby McMann, Pontus Holmberg and Matthew Knies -- it's imporant to remember that isn't exactly a "fair" competition.

Matthew Knies and Bobby McMann pushed their way into the Leafs top 6, not because they're better players than Robertson -- it's because they play a style that compliments the "fixtures" in the Leafs top 6 -- mainly as the primary forechecker, the guy to be the first one in on the forecheck, winning puck battles, to help free up space for the likes of Matthews, Marner and Nylander to make the magic happen.

That's not Robertson's game. He is simply a far, far, inferior forechecker than Knies and McMann; and he will almost certainly always be an inferior forechecker. He gives up 5-6 inches and a minimum of 30-35 pounds to those 2 guys. Robertson's game is scoring goals, and finding spots in open ice. He was at his best playing with Max Domi, a playmaking centre, and Calle Jarnkrok, a grinding forward more than happy to do the heavy lifting.

Yes, in a perfect world, the Leafs would have Robertson as a consistent third line threat. The challenge is, the Leafs don't really have a strong centre to put with him that can effectively cover for his defensive miscues and also compliment him offensively. It's almost easier to "forego" the incremental 10 goals that he likely gives over a Pontus Holmberg, to not have to worry about defensive lapses, and to get another guy that can go on your PK.

You make him sound like Victor Olofsson - a fine finisher and a heckuva nice guy who will score 25 this year if Vegas pairs him with Eichel and uses him on the PP.

But Vic couldn’t cut it with fine-but-not-Eichel players like Casey Mittelstadt and lost time to guys like Zach Benson and Jordan Greenway.

Here’s the thing, those guys can’t finish like Vic can, but they are better hockey players because they don’t need to be plugged into a perfect situation to be useful.

The Leafs aren’t unique in the scenario you describe. And Robertson needs to be more than Olofsson. Or he’s just going to be another in a long line of NHL 2nd-line wannabes who either never make it, or limited 2nd-line wingers their team is trying to upgrade.

 

[TommyDangles]

Like asking Lazar (Krebs) for Shinkaruk (Robertson) 6 years ago. Robertson has the higher skill ceiling, but Krebs is far more likely to stick around in the NHL. Robertson feels like the new Bracco.

 

[seanlinden]

You make him sound like Victor Olofsson - a fine finisher and a heckuva nice guy who will score 25 this year if Vegas pairs him with Eichel and uses him on the PP.

But Vic couldn’t cut it with fine-but-not-Eichel players like Casey Mittelstadt and lost time to guys like Zach Benson and Jordan Greenway.

Here’s the thing, those guys can’t finish like Vic can, but they are better hockey players because they don’t need to be plugged into a perfect situation to be useful.

The Leafs aren’t unique in the scenario you describe. And Robertson needs to be more than Olofsson. Or he’s just going to be another in a long line of NHL 2nd-line wannabes who either never make it, or limited 2nd-line wingers their team is trying to upgrade.

It's a fair point.. but the Leafs and Sabres are in quite different positions. The Leafs core is all in their primes, trying to win a cup. Every single roster spot must be purposeful.


The Sabres are still a very young team, trying to not only take the next step, but debelop the pool of talent to take them there. Olofsson was 29, he is what he is at this point. Robertson's 23.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Ill never understand why Krebs went in the first round let alone middle of it.

 

[Ciao]

It's pretty hard to get excited about either one of these players.

 

[biturbo19]

As a neutral fan, i definitely wouldn't do this from a Sabres perspective.

Krebs is younger, more positionally versatile...and i still believe he's got some real untapped "upside" left. I also like his "two-way upside" more. Robertson is a dime a dozen tiny scoring winger who can't seem to stay healthy or establish himself as a Top-6 guy. Basically the last thing the Sabres need. Hence...why they'd be trading away a massively better than Robertson version of that in Savoie, for a speedy two-way "checking line" sort of Center like McLeod.

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

To be fair, Olofsson is 29 and Skinner 32. They also probably lost on "pure skill" with the Matthew Savoie trade.

We can read into those 3 moves that it's about the Sabres getting bigger / tougher to play against / etc...but there's also a balancing act... and sometimes it's more about creating a different "structure to your forward group -- subtracting skill and adding size in one area, and adding skill and subtracting size in another.

Great
But it is not the direction that the Sabres want to go in

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

The Sabres need to get to the next level and have decided that one dimensional players are not what they need to fit the style of play that they want to play

All the “Robertson is awesome” speeches will not change that

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

To an extent, he is.

Nick Robertson had 13 even strength goals this year in 56 games, and potted one on the powerplay for 14. He didn't get much in the way of PP time, because of course, the Leafs have a very expensive top unit, and use it a ton.

Consider some of the other players who scored roughly the same number of goals at event strength as Robertson this year:

- Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.

It's far from a stretch to think that if he had been a regular member of the Leafs #1 PP unit, he'd have easily surpassed 20 goals this year.

As for competing with Max Domi, Bobby McMann, Pontus Holmberg and Matthew Knies -- it's imporant to remember that isn't exactly a "fair" competition.

Matthew Knies and Bobby McMann pushed their way into the Leafs top 6, not because they're better players than Robertson -- it's because they play a style that compliments the "fixtures" in the Leafs top 6 -- mainly as the primary forechecker, the guy to be the first one in on the forecheck, winning puck battles, to help free up space for the likes of Matthews, Marner and Nylander to make the magic happen.

That's not Robertson's game. He is simply a far, far, inferior forechecker than Knies and McMann; and he will almost certainly always be an inferior forechecker. He gives up 5-6 inches and a minimum of 30-35 pounds to those 2 guys. Robertson's game is scoring goals, and finding spots in open ice. He was at his best playing with Max Domi, a playmaking centre, and Calle Jarnkrok, a grinding forward more than happy to do the heavy lifting.

Yes, in a perfect world, the Leafs would have Robertson as a consistent third line threat. The challenge is, the Leafs don't really have a strong centre to put with him that can effectively cover for his defensive miscues and also compliment him offensively. It's almost easier to "forego" the incremental 10 goals that he likely gives over a Pontus Holmberg, to not have to worry about defensive lapses, and to get another guy that can go on your PK.

“Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.”

All three of these players are big in size. All contribute to 2 way play. Robertson does not compare to these 3 players

IMO comparisons would be
Patrik Laine
Jeff Skinner
Victor Ollaffson
Kubalik

 

[TS Quint]

Wow, listening to Leafs fans I'm expecting a monster contract for Robertson. If they get this 30 goal scorer locked in under 6 million they did amazing.

 

[seanlinden]

“Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.”

All three of these players are big in size. All contribute to 2 way play. Robertson does not compare to these 3 players

IMO comparisons would be
Patrik Laine
Jeff Skinner
Victor Ollaffson
Kubalik

Correct... that's why they're $4-5m players.

The point of bringing those guys up, is that most people would think that they are pretty productive / important offensive players. The reality is, from a goalscoring perspective, the difference between those 3 and Robertson from a 5-on-5 perspective, is very little.

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

Correct... that's why they're $4-5m players.

The point of bringing those guys up, is that most people would think that they are pretty productive / important offensive players. The reality is, from a goalscoring perspective, the difference between those 3 and Robertson from a 5-on-5 perspective, is very little.

Are we ignoring the two way play part? I think that is an important part that you are ignoring

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

5 v 5 play includes the defensive part too

 

[Eegs]

Sounds like Krebs is getting the Lazar treatment so let's hope he doesn't wash out the same.

Lazar was never viewed to have to same offensive upside. He was always going to be a heart and soul type that did it all with a sh!t eating grin on his face.

I'd say Curtis has carved out a nice career for himself at this point.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

“Ryan O'Reilly - 12 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an addtional 14 on the powerplay.
- Gabriel Vilardi - 13 EVGs in 47 games, but potted an additional 9 on the powerplay.
- Vincent Trochek - 13 EVGs in 82 games, but potted an additiaonl 11 on the powerplay.”

All three of these players are big in size. All contribute to 2 way play. Robertson does not compare to these 3 players

IMO comparisons would be
Patrik Laine
Jeff Skinner
Victor Ollaffson
Kubalik

I wouldn't say Trocheck is big in size, but he's definitely a solid two-way player.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Sabres fans trying to say no to this is blinding homerism at it's finest

Coming from you is absolutely hilarious. You’d cheer for Stalin if he had a Leafs uniform on.

 

[Jimmybarndoor2]

I wouldn't say Trocheck is big in size, but he's definitely a solid two-way player.

Ok
Robertson is 5 foot 9 160 lbs soaking wet with ankle weights and platform shoes