Value of: Kravtsov

[bernmeister]

Kravtsov was not competing with Hajek for a spot on the Rangers.

He was competing with other players that play the same position and he got beat out.

Full stop.

Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. It happens ever year to every team since the game was invented.

Please do not try to twist this that he had to perform better than Hajek.

Its not a factual statement.

At all

I concur there was no direct competition incl at the position.
But my pt remains:
had they gone w/1 less D -- Hajek -- Krav would have gottent that position and Hajek would have been sent down.

Can we agree to that?

 

[EK392000]

Are you effin kidding me?
You made a whole big deal about how Senshyn got his chances and failed to make Bruins,
now you ask me for proof.

HE GOT HIS CHANCES

physician heal thyself

Zachary Senyshyn
14 GP, 1G, 2A, 9:51 ATOI in his career

Vitali Kravtsov
20 GP, 2G, 2A, 12:24 ATOI in his career

And yet, according to you, one of these players got their chance and the other didn't? How does that work? Again, you create any narrative to help your little Rangers. You've been caught in an inconsistency, sir.

Either you maintain that both players got their chance or neither or them did.

If you agree that both got their chance, as you should if you claim Senyshyn got his chance and the stats show Krav was given a similar opportunity, then this would satisfy your condition of him being given a chance to show his value.

OR

If you maintain that neither of them got their chance, you should be comfortable admitting that Senyshyn is worth a 15th OA pick, in the same way Krav would be worth a 9OA pick
(Clearly Senyshyn is not worth that. For the same reasons, Krav isn't worth his original pick)

Either way, you're not getting a top 10 pick for Krav.

 

[pld459666]

I concur there was no direct competition incl at the position.
But my pt remains:
had they gone w/1 less D -- Hajek -- Krav would have gottent that position and Hajek would have been sent down.

Can we agree to that?

If he didn't earn the spot, he gets sent down

For me, that's the end of it

 

[Mersss]

CF lists him as 21 today.
AFTER 27 is 6. 6+ years hence

even if the $ is comparable, why should he wait out til 27+?

It's not like he is already 25 and a half...

He has already established full cred in Russia.
No reason to not pursue NHL career esp if effective immediately he gets cooperative NHL partner.

Cause
1- He clearly feels disrespected bt the NYR
2- the NYR clearly do not see him as a top6 player.
3- He can make a lot more $ in Russia, screw over the org that disrespected him by doing so.

So yahz 2nd rd pick and consider yourself lucky, or lose him for nothing!

 

[bernmeister]

Zachary Senyshyn
14 GP, 1G, 2A, 9:51 ATOI in his career

Vitali Kravtsov
20 GP, 2G, 2A, 12:24 ATOI in his career

And yet, according to you, one of these players got their chance and the other didn't? How does that work? Again, you create any narrative to help your little Rangers. You've been caught in an inconsistency, sir.

Either you maintain that both players got their chance or neither or them did.

If you agree that both got their chance, as you should if you claim Senyshyn got his chance and the stats show Krav was given a similar opportunity, then this would satisfy your condition of him being given a chance to show his value.

OR

If you maintain that neither of them got their chance, you should be comfortable admitting that Senyshyn is worth a 15th OA pick, in the same way Krav would be worth a 9OA pick
(Clearly Senyshyn is not worth that. For the same reasons, Krav isn't worth his original pick)

Either way, you're not getting a top 10 pick for Krav.

I do not have to capitulate to YOUR narrative on the bold

Krav did not get legit chance and I'm not repeating the detail
other than to say Krav is supposed to be a top 6, if not a top line F.
He needs complementary linemates of that calibre for sufficient time

he did not get anything close to that

 

[bernmeister]

If he didn't earn the spot, he gets sent down

For me, that's the end of it

And you are entitled to your opinion as others are theirs.

I would say that obv, as was stated somewhere, Drury or somebody made the flimsy excuse that they didn't want to lose Hajek on waivers,
It is stupid policy by Drury

but it is an actual reason,
not some false made up excuse.

 

[bernmeister]

Cause
1- He clearly feels disrespected bt the NYR
2- the NYR clearly do not see him as a top6 player.
3- He can make a lot more $ in Russia, screw over the org that disrespected him by doing so.

So yahz 2nd rd pick and consider yourself lucky, or lose him for nothing!

your drivel does not address that most players who have a choice prefer the NHL

He's not going to wait 6+ yrs to come here to spite the rangers
he'll return first chance we give him
and Drury, who effed this up royally at sq 1, should be doing all that is possible to expedite that

 

[EK392000]

I do not have to capitulate to YOUR narrative on the bold

Krav did not get legit chance and I'm not repeating the detail
other than to say Krav is supposed to be a top 6, if not a top line F.
He needs complementary linemates of that calibre for sufficient time

he did not get anything close to that

That isn't my narrative. That is the logical consequence of the players having similar stats in similar usage in their brief NHL stints. What you maintain for one player should hold true for the other, otherwise your claims would be inconsistent. You cannot say that one player got their chance and the other didn't.

Do you think Senyshyn got complimentary linemates of a high calibre for a sufficient time? No. And yet he got his legit chance and Kravtsov didn't. You sound like a Kravtsov apologetic.

And yes, you do not HAVE to capitulate to the LOGICAL narrative, but you look more and more foolish the longer you try and fight it. Everyone can see that your argument is inconsistent, weak, and biased towards the Rangers.

 

[pld459666]

And you are entitled to your opinion as others are theirs.

I would say that obv, as was stated somewhere, Drury or somebody made the flimsy excuse that they didn't want to lose Hajek on waivers,
It is stupid policy by Drury

but it is an actual reason,
not some false made up excuse.

It was never made in reference as to why Kravtsov was sent down.

you are assuming that to be the case.

Kravtsov needed to do more in preseason and he didn't. Again, it happens.

 

[EK392000]

It was never made in reference as to why Kravtsov was sent down.

you are assuming that to be the case.

Kravtsov needed to do more in preseason and he didn't. Again, it happens.

Bern is so enamoured with prospects and ELCs that he isn't willing to accept that they don't pan out as planned sometimes. There's a long list of reasons that Krav hasn't flourished, but Krav himself isn't one of them.

 

[Flan the incredible]

Kravtsov was sent down because he had the option to be sent down without going through waivers. End of story.

Panarin, Kreider and Laf were all locks at LW. Zibs, Strome and Chytil were locks at center. Kappo, Goodrow, Blais and Reeves were all locks at RW. Gauthier had to clear waivers and as Drury has proven he won't give away assets for nothing. Hajak hasn't played a second in the NHL this season and Tinordi is getting starts over him and he made the team because they don't want to lose him for nothing.

Rangers wanted to be tougher to play against so Rooney and Hunt rounded out the roster.

If you think any of the offseason moves Drury made were not making the team you are kidding yourself.

So short of Krav having a ridiculous preseason he had no chance of making the team. If he had a ridiculous preseason Rangers would have to decide to waive either Gauthier or Hajak. Hajak would be the easier option as Jones is probably more NHL ready. So Kravtsov wasn't competing directly with Hajak but with the Rangers carrying 23 spots he would be the likely waiver casualty.

I dont agree with his entitled attitude in the slightest and him acting like a child but its pretty obvious he had no chance of making this team with the moves they made.

 

[Captain97]

Not sure, if it's finally being accounted for (unlike before in Kravtsov threads), that Kravtsov has now twice left NA due to being entitled (call it what you want, but this is not pro player behavior). This affects value. Most GM's are dinosaurs and this type of behavior is something they take notice of.

I mean tons of Europeans have out clauses to European leagues and exercise them often if they get sent to the minors. It's not Kravstov's fault he is from the one country/league that doesn't have a transfer agreement.

 

[bernmeister]

Kravtsov was sent down because he had the option to be sent down without going through waivers. End of story.

Panarin, Kreider and Laf were all locks at LW. Zibs, Strome and Chytil were locks at center. Kappo, Goodrow, Blais and Reeves were all locks at RW. Gauthier had to clear waivers and as Drury has proven he won't give away assets for nothing. Hajak hasn't played a second in the NHL this season and Tinordi is getting starts over him and he made the team because they don't want to lose him for nothing.

Rangers wanted to be tougher to play against so Rooney and Hunt rounded out the roster.

If you think any of the offseason moves Drury made were not making the team you are kidding yourself.

So short of Krav having a ridiculous preseason he had no chance of making the team. If he had a ridiculous preseason Rangers would have to decide to waive either Gauthier or Hajak. Hajak would be the easier option as Jones is probably more NHL ready. So Kravtsov wasn't competing directly with Hajak but with the Rangers carrying 23 spots he would be the likely waiver casualty.

I dont agree with his entitled attitude in the slightest and him acting like a child but its pretty obvious he had no chance of making this team with the moves they made.

someone was paying attention, thank you.

the bold further asserts from a dif angle how Krav did not get a fair chance to make the team based strictly on his play.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern is so enamoured with prospects and ELCs that he isn't willing to accept that they don't pan out as planned sometimes. There's a long list of reasons that Krav hasn't flourished, but Krav himself isn't one of them.

Krav IS flourishing in Russia
there is no logical basis to argue that if given sufficient or better assets in linemates, etc, he would not perform at a sufficiently high level here.

Krav will play for somebody in NHL next year.
Unless it is to a team like Kraken, which projects to have no immediate help for him as to quality Fs on his line, meaning he would be forced to do it all by himself, he will, barring injury, flourish brilliantly as complementary piece on a good line.

book this whole post and let's review it in a year

 

[bernmeister]

It was never made in reference as to why Kravtsov was sent down.

you are assuming that to be the case.

Kravtsov needed to do more in preseason and he didn't. Again, it happens.

I appreciate the clarification.
I think he did enuf and again, certainly so as to proving more worthy of a spot vs Hajek

 

[Stewie Griffin]

I appreciate the clarification.
I think he did enuf and again, certainly so as to proving more worthy of a spot vs Hajek

You keep comparing him to Hajek...but they don't even play the same position. Stop looking at it as Kravstov vs. Hajek. You have to look at who beat him to a winger roster spot. That list includes Panarin, Lafreniere, Kakko, Goodrow, Blais, Gauthier, Reaves, etc.

 

[bernmeister]

That isn't my narrative. That is the logical consequence of the players having similar stats in similar usage in their brief NHL stints. What you maintain for one player should hold true for the other, otherwise your claims would be inconsistent. You cannot say that one player got their chance and the other didn't.

Do you think Senyshyn got complimentary linemates of a high calibre for a sufficient time? No. And yet he got his legit chance and Kravtsov didn't. You sound like a Kravtsov apologetic.

And yes, you do not HAVE to capitulate to the LOGICAL narrative, but you look more and more foolish the longer you try and fight it. Everyone can see that your argument is inconsistent, weak, and biased towards the Rangers.

1. It is not similar usage.
If a guy is just a depth piece on a checking line, what he has to show is dif than if he is supposed to be at least top 6 or top line F --- which requires comparable talent F linemates which Krav did not get

2. Your logical narrative must
a) first be correct which the above demonstrates it was not
and
b) not be undone or at least countered by any competing logic. Also not the case here.
Hence bern does not have to capitulate.

 

[bernmeister]

You keep comparing him to Hajek...but they don't even play the same position. Stop looking at it as Kravstov vs. Hajek. You have to look at who beat him to a winger roster spot. That list includes Panarin, Lafreniere, Kakko, Goodrow, Blais, Gauthier, Reaves, etc.

It is pertinent and I will therefore continue to raise it.

b'c of presumably Drury politics, an extra D was carried instead of an extra F.
sorry excuse was use of player status to avoid issue w/waivers.

That is an attempt to hide Drury's failure to move
Strome, Geo and Hajek for decent value
which is something that cannot be avoided given Fox, Zib raises

That NY D corps plays so well w/o Hajek establishes no need for him, hence his roster spot is a complete waste.

If it did not ignire the Krav situation, that would be one thing, but while Drury has done a good job overall, for him to mismanage this is beyond attrocious.

We will be better off w/
Krav + Barron
than
Strome + Hajek

which is inevitable given cap reality

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Cause
1- He clearly feels disrespected bt the NYR
2- the NYR clearly do not see him as a top6 player.
3- He can make a lot more $ in Russia, screw over the org that disrespected him by doing so.

So yahz 2nd rd pick and consider yourself lucky, or lose him for nothing!

1. He might. But that's really on him and his character.
2. Total conjecture.
3. Perhaps. If money is the goal, he never would have come over in the first place.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Kravtsov was sent down because he had the option to be sent down without going through waivers. End of story.

He went down because they wanted him to rehab an injury.

 

[EK392000]

1. It is not similar usage.
If a guy is just a depth piece on a checking line, what he has to show is dif than if he is supposed to be at least top 6 or top line F --- which requires comparable talent F linemates which Krav did not get

2. Your logical narrative must
a) first be correct which the above demonstrates it was not
and
b) not be undone or at least countered by any competing logic. Also not the case here.
Hence bern does not have to capitulate.

You seem to think that Krav is entitled to top 6 minutes with top 6 players. Laf was the first overall pick and he's playing on the third line, no? His draft pedigree does not entitle him to top 6 minutes when Panarin and Kreider are clearly playing better options at LW. What makes you think Krav will just be handed that? That's earned in this league, and the fact that Krav has not earned that to this day tells a story. That story diminishes his trade value.

All those other considerations that you've been conveniently neglecting matter.

And yet again, you created another narrative to help your guy. Senyshyn was supposedly drafted to be a depth piece and Krav was not. The Bruins drafted a depth piece at 15th overall. In hindsight, it looks like that but I am sure as hell that they didn't walk up on stage to draft a guy in the first round that they could get a dime a dozen for in free agency.

Would you want the Rangers to trade their first round pick this year, assuming its around 19th OA, for Jay O'Brien? Please just answer me this. Put the shoe on the other foot for once and answer it. You may have to google that player but I'll save you the trouble.

Jay O'Brien (19th Overall in 2018 Draft)
23 GP with Boston University, 10G, 10A, 20P

Let me remind you of your original argument:
A prospect's value is set at his draft position until given a chance to to prove his actual value.

You can ignore everything else I said. Is Jay O'Brien worth a pick around 19th OA?

For the love of God, give me a straight answer. It's a yes or no question.

 

[Flan the incredible]

He went down because they wanted him to rehab an injury.

Who was he making the team over? So pretty much who were they losing on waivers if he made the team?

 

[bernmeister]

You seem to think that Krav is entitled to top 6 minutes with top 6 players. Laf was the first overall pick and he's playing on the third line, no? His draft pedigree does not entitle him to top 6 minutes when Panarin and Kreider are clearly playing better options at LW. What makes you think Krav will just be handed that? That's earned in this league, and the fact that Krav has not earned that to this day tells a story. That story diminishes his trade value.

All those other considerations that you've been conveniently neglecting matter.

And yet again, you created another narrative to help your guy. Senyshyn was supposedly drafted to be a depth piece and Krav was not. The Bruins drafted a depth piece at 15th overall. In hindsight, it looks like that but I am sure as hell that they didn't walk up on stage to draft a guy in the first round that they could get a dime a dozen for in free agency.

Would you want the Rangers to trade their first round pick this year, assuming its around 19th OA, for Jay O'Brien? Please just answer me this. Put the shoe on the other foot for once and answer it. You may have to google that player but I'll save you the trouble.

Jay O'Brien (19th Overall in 2018 Draft)
23 GP with Boston University, 10G, 10A, 20P

Let me remind you of your original argument:
A prospect's value is set at his draft position until given a chance to to prove his actual value.

You can ignore everything else I said. Is Jay O'Brien worth a pick around 19th OA?

For the love of God, give me a straight answer. It's a yes or no question.

Krav is not entitled to anything other than a fair shot.
You are making it sound as if I am saying once he is on the team, his slot on a given line should be awarded to him irrespective of play.
I did not and am not saying THAT.
It would behoove a team, any team to use the best combinations to get max production, and that would include playing Krav w/better, not lesser talent but as to exactly what works is something that requires analysis and doing hypothetical now is not useful w/o sufficient track record of Krav on varsity w/best players.
Also, I think more along lines of what is best chemistry for a line rather than try and force a given player into a given line number.
So for example, a year ago I called LaF - Chytil - Gauthier as a line before it became a thing.
Whether or not that should effectively be our 2nd or 3rd line is irrelevant.
Same thing w/Kreider.
He has history on first line w/zib. no prob
but I could also see
Goodrow [until Krav] - Zib - Panarin as a top line
and with keeping LaF - Chytil - Gauthier if that is 2nd line
then Kreider - Barron - Kakko as 3rd line
or maybe those 2nd and third lines flip based on who is hot.

My beef is IT IS A PREREQUISITE for Krav [or any player] to get sufficient mins w/sufficiently top Fs if the objective is to see if they are a fit at that spot.
That is not such a hard concept to grasp.

--------------
Relative to "Is Jay O'Brien worth a pick around 19th OA?" I would say no but that, being in a vacuum, does not have relevance to the Krav situation.

Why Bs picked him, I don't know/care.

Who did we take w/our 1st this yr?
Best talent? Conventional wisdom says no, but supposedly we filled a need, getting not just a C of max talent but rather sufficient talent who is also quality character guy who "is hard(er) to play against".

So who I would pick in a given draft, or trade that pick slotting, would be an assessment of the opportunity cost of each different option.


People are studying bern's theory on how to restructure the internatioal monetary system so we can help get the world out of its current mess and begin moving forward.

You are going to have to do a lot better if you ever hope to hoist me off my own ptard/alt spelling petard.

 

[EK392000]

Krav is not entitled to anything other than a fair shot.
You are making it sound as if I am saying once he is on the team, his slot on a given line should be awarded to him irrespective of play.
I did not and am not saying THAT.
It would behoove a team, any team to use the best combinations to get max production, and that would include playing Krav w/better, not lesser talent but as to exactly what works is something that requires analysis and doing hypothetical now is not useful w/o sufficient track record of Krav on varsity w/best players.
Also, I think more along lines of what is best chemistry for a line rather than try and force a given player into a given line number.
So for example, a year ago I called LaF - Chytil - Gauthier as a line before it became a thing.
Whether or not that should effectively be our 2nd or 3rd line is irrelevant.
Same thing w/Kreider.
He has history on first line w/zib. no prob
but I could also see
Goodrow [until Krav] - Zib - Panarin as a top line
and with keeping LaF - Chytil - Gauthier if that is 2nd line
then Kreider - Barron - Kakko as 3rd line
or maybe those 2nd and third lines flip based on who is hot.

My beef is IT IS A PREREQUISITE for Krav [or any player] to get sufficient mins w/sufficiently top Fs if the objective is to see if they are a fit at that spot.
That is not such a hard concept to grasp.

--------------
Relative to "Is Jay O'Brien worth a pick around 19th OA?" I would say no but that, being in a vacuum, does not have relevance to the Krav situation.

Why Bs picked him, I don't know/care.

Who did we take w/our 1st this yr?
Best talent? Conventional wisdom says no, but supposedly we filled a need, getting not just a C of max talent but rather sufficient talent who is also quality character guy who "is hard(er) to play against".

So who I would pick in a given draft, or trade that pick slotting, would be an assessment of the opportunity cost of each different option.


People are studying bern's theory on how to restructure the internatioal monetary system so we can help get the world out of its current mess and begin moving forward.

You are going to have to do a lot better if you ever hope to hoist me off my own ptard/alt spelling petard.

Let me show you your inconsistency in plain writing.

You maintain that a prospect's value is set at his draft position until they get a fair chance to prove their worth. Hence, Krav, according to you, is worth a 9th OA pick.

I've shown you multiple players where this does not hold true, but let's just use Jay O'Brien (Flyers picked him btw). You have conceded that Jay O'Brien, who has not been given a fair chance to play, is not valued at a 19th OA pick for a team looking to acquire him. This is not in a vacuum -- it has direct relevance to your argument.

My proof that it is relevant is that all of your vindications used for Krav apply to him. He has not been given a fair or legitimate chance as of yet, and yet you concede that he is not worth his draft pick. By the way, Jay O'Brien was projected to have a ceiling of a top 6 centre.

THEREFORE, your prospect valuation theory does not withstand scrutiny. It does not hold true because it is illogical to think that a prospect's value cannot change before they get a fair chance to play. It can change, and it actually changes all the time. Would you not agree that Kaprisov's value was higher than a 5th round pick before he even entered the league? It's the same phenomenon, just the other way around.

I hope, for the sake of humanity, that your theory on how to restructure the international monetary system is more refined than your argument here. I'd love to read it though. Post a link if you choose to respond.

 

[pld459666]

I appreciate the clarification.
I think he did enuf and again, certainly so as to proving more worthy of a spot vs Hajek

He wasn't competing with Hajek for a spot on the team.

Either you are ignoring that or not getting it.