Kraken 2024 Offseason chatter

[RainyCityHockey]

F this.

We need to offersheet Seth Jarvis.

Yeah, five offer sheets by Ron with all the other GM's going nuts......

And....

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

That's a pretty good argument on Laine's behalf. I would agree that if the choice is between Laine at the price and two or three plugs at the price, Laine is the tastier alternative for sure...and, as you point out, he might be a long term building block but, just as important, if he isn't, we can part ways without it costing us anything. Kind of a "can't hurt; might help" sort of situation. But whatever the trade is, I wouldn't include a first for this guy. So I can see this deal, but only if the price is right.

Same. I am warming up to the idea of Laine, thanks to @majormajor points, but I ain't giving up anything that stings. That being said, I am ok taking him on without retention or sending back any bad contract.

 

[Interior Cascadian]

Given what he's been through over the years, it's amazing he's made it this long without asking for a change of scenery. I think he's been a trooper. And this has been handled with discretion as far as I know - he's not vocal at all about it. He wasn't in Winnipeg either.



No offense to you or Dr Quincy, but neither of you know Laine or the Blue Jackets well. I do. I don't know if you knew this but in addition to posting here, I'm the most prolific commentator on HF Jackets.

Last year this concussion from a dirty hit happened only four games into Laine's season



He came back a couple weeks later but was clearly not himself, and played only six weeks after that before his broken collarbone injury and the end his season. Those are the stats you're looking at, someone who just had his concussion. Look at those same stats from the two years prior to that (I posted his advanced stat profile three posts above yours).

Imagine someone just clipped Beniers' stats in the six weeks after he had a concussion? Honestly this really pisses me off.

He was actually pretty happy with Columbus and the fanbase and all of that. He just kept getting injured and obviously needs a change of scenery for reasons that have little to do with the size of the market.



He had about a season and a half in Columbus where he was a solid two way player.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1801011179365523927

The appeal is largely

1) that he won't cost serious trade assets.

2) that a two year commitment to a 26 year old player is a lot better than a 7 or 8 year commitment to a player in UFA. If it doesn't work you walk away, if it works you can probably keep him long term.

His contract is kind of perfect for a team like Seattle that isn't loaded on either the prospect or mature player end, that doesn't want to splurge when the competitive window is still years away.

I'm not a huge Laine fan, and certainly not recommending him unreservedly (there are issues, just not ones raised above), but the rough outlines of the player and his contract happen to fit what we need. I could explain what the actual thorny issues with Laine are if folks are curious about that.

I always thought Laine wasn’t all that physical despite his size. Winnipeg had plenty of players who were better suited to throwing their weight around to provide Laine cover to focus on potting goals. I haven’t watched him at all since he went to CBJ though. Is my impression of him accurate? I feel like Seattle gets pushed around against many other teams and badly needs a real power forward. Is that a fair assessment of Laine’s game since he moved to Columbus?

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I always thought Laine wasn’t all that physical despite his size. Winnipeg had plenty of players who were better suited to throwing their weight around to provide Laine cover to focus on potting goals. I haven’t watched him at all since he went to CBJ though. Is my impression of him accurate?

I don't know. I have attached a screenshot of the number of hits by the Jets players over 3 seasons and was a little surprised to see the number of hits Laine had.

I feel like Seattle gets pushed around against many other teams and badly needs a real power forward. Is that a fair assessment of Laine’s game since he moved to Columbus?

I agree that the team needs more size, especially the top-6, but we also need more goal-scoring. A goal-scoring PF would be ideal, but I would be happy just to add more scoring for now.

 

[Cisse]

As a Finn I have been following how Laine is doing pretty closely during his time in NHL. When Laine lost his father unexpectedly in November 2021 he lost also a big part of his game. His father had such an impact on Laine on and off the game. The problem with Laine is that he lost his will to play the game. And it showed.
From what I have heard he is not leaving Columbus because of the team or the city. He wants a new start in a city that doesn't remind him about his father all the time. He is not necessarily looking for the best team but best surroundings to enjoy the game again.
There is no telling how he will play in the future but I believe he has had to grow a lot as a person and as a player. If his head is in a game he will be terrific player and with better concentration and self belief he might avoid some of the injuries that has met him in the past.
I'm not saying we should sign Laine but at some point we need to start taking risks with trades and free agents. We won't get far in near future if we just wait our drafts to do all the work.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

As a Finn I have been following how Laine is doing pretty closely during his time in NHL. When Laine lost his father unexpectedly in November 2021 he lost also a big part of his game. His father had such an impact on Laine on and off the game. The problem with Laine is that he lost his will to play the game. And it showed.
From what I have heard he is not leaving Columbus because of the team or the city. He wants a new start in a city that doesn't remind him about his father all the time. He is not necessarily looking for the best team but best surroundings to enjoy the game again.
There is no telling how he will play in the future but I believe he has had to grow a lot as a person and as a player. If his head is in a game he will be terrific player and with better concentration and self belief he might avoid some of the injuries that has met him in the past.
I'm not saying we should sign Laine but at some point we need to start taking risks with trades and free agents. We won't get far in near future if we just wait our drafts to do all the work.

Larsson is another player who left his previous team for similar reasons. He has shined on the Kraken, though historically, he has never had the downs that Laine has had. I am all for taking a risk with Laine, as long as the risk is limited to the money. He may love Seattle and bounce back in a big way, but that's a big risk to take for 8.75M x 2.

I have no interest in giving up anything of value for him. If not for the rising cap, I am pretty sure Laine would have a massive negative value currently. I would be open to giving up a mid- to late-round pick, but nothing more.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

This article sheds some light on Laine and CBJ.

Blue Jackets amenable to trading Patrik Laine, but it won't be an easy deal to swing

Moving Laine won't be easy, and it's possible the Blue Jackets may have to retain some of his salary or sweeten the offer to swing a deal.

www.nytimes.com

Cap, performance and off-ice issues aside, he also has a 10 team NTC (likely he waives it). But the article seems to imply that CBJ will likely need to add a sweetener or retain on him.

 

[gstommylee]

 

[RainyCityHockey]

Same. I am warming up to the idea of Laine, thanks to @majormajor points, but I ain't giving up anything that stings. That being said, I am ok taking him on without retention or sending back any bad contract.

Well, you could send back a Tanev etc.

Laine does make sense cause it's only a two year deal and if it doesn't work out he'll be in his final year of his contract a year from now.
He also wouldn't be a problem if you're trying to re-sign the younger guys after their ELC because his contract would be up.

 

[majormajor]

I always thought Laine wasn’t all that physical despite his size. Winnipeg had plenty of players who were better suited to throwing their weight around to provide Laine cover to focus on potting goals. I haven’t watched him at all since he went to CBJ though. Is my impression of him accurate? I feel like Seattle gets pushed around against many other teams and badly needs a real power forward. Is that a fair assessment of Laine’s game since he moved to Columbus?

He's not physical, his body isn't built that way.

 

[Interior Cascadian]

He's not physical, his body isn't built that way.

Beniers-like, perhaps?

 

[majormajor]

I'll put some of my analysis of Laine here, filling folks in on the parts of his game that don't get talked about much:

Laine works very hard on the backcheck. He's diligent and fast. Even before he got to Columbus he was typically the first man back on his line. That's part of why he has been tried at center at times, because first forward back often gets occupied in defensive position down low like a center. That part comes naturally to Laine. Early in his career he had some awful loafing tendencies and it kind of bugs me that folks still assume that he is like that.

Instead Laine has other issues that sometimes hurt his defensive game. He loves to carry the puck too much. The caricature of Laine as a shot only player is just that, a caricature. I wish he actually played like that at times. Instead he likes to skate with it and when he's off his game he likes to find his game by feeling the puck on his stick. But he's not a high end handler so the turnovers are a problem. A lot of pucks going back the other way.

A related factor is that Laine is not an able forechecker. His top speed is great but the quickness at his height is an issue in small areas. He likes to shoot on the rush and tries to carry it in most of the time. So he's turning over pucks at the line or he's shooting and then the puck is going back into your zone.

This year Laine had a concussion and got very off his game. But in the two years prior to this one, Laine was scoring a lot and got good defensive results. He was about a point per game. The good parts of his game often outweigh the bad. He's just not an all purpose player. He plays well with players who can forecheck and drive the net and take care of those roles. His best linemates were Boone Jenner and Gus Nyquist. He wasn't as effective with Gaudreau and other skilled playmakers because Laine prefers to have the puck on his stick a lot. There's only one puck. Ideally Laine would give up some of his puck-carrying tendencies and I think he'd have better results at both ends if he does that.

I wonder if he'd fit well with some of the great forecheckers we have in Seattle. Laine excels at turning their work into goals. He'll also score a lot on any rush oriented line but like I've explained above, the turnovers may be an issue. And the big upside case is that Laine will start scoring dozens of powerplay goals like he used to. The Columbus powerplay sucked before Laine, with Laine, and with Laine injured, so I don't hold that against him.

 

[majormajor]

Beniers-like, perhaps?

Sure, they're both thin. It looks a bit different obviously, he's 6'5 and not a super graceful skater like Beniers.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'll put some of my analysis of Laine here, filling folks in on the parts of his game that don't get talked about much:

Laine works very hard on the backcheck. He's diligent and fast. Even before he got to Columbus he was typically the first man back on his line. That's part of why he has been tried at center at times, because first forward back often gets occupied in defensive position down low like a center. That part comes naturally to Laine. Early in his career he had some awful loafing tendencies and it kind of bugs me that folks still assume that he is like that.

Instead Laine has other issues that sometimes hurt his defensive game. He loves to carry the puck too much. The caricature of Laine as a shot only player is just that, a caricature. I wish he actually played like that at times. Instead he likes to skate with it and when he's off his game he likes to find his game by feeling the puck on his stick. But he's not a high end handler so the turnovers are a problem. A lot of pucks going back the other way.

A related factor is that Laine is not an able forechecker. His top speed is great but the quickness at his height is an issue in small areas. He likes to shoot on the rush and tries to carry it in most of the time. So he's turning over pucks at the line or he's shooting and then the puck is going back into your zone.

This year Laine had a concussion and got very off his game. But in the two years prior to this one, Laine was scoring a lot and got good defensive results. He was about a point per game. The good parts of his game often outweigh the bad. He's just not an all purpose player. He plays well with players who can forecheck and drive the net and take care of those roles. His best linemates were Boone Jenner and Gus Nyquist. He wasn't as effective with Gaudreau and other skilled playmakers because Laine prefers to have the puck on his stick a lot. There's only one puck. Ideally Laine would give up some of his puck-carrying tendencies and I think he'd have better results at both ends if he does that.

I wonder if he'd fit well with some of the great forecheckers we have in Seattle. Laine excels at turning their work into goals. He'll also score a lot on any rush oriented line but like I've explained above, the turnovers may be an issue. And the big upside case is that Laine will start scoring dozens of powerplay goals like he used to. The Columbus powerplay sucked before Laine, with Laine, and with Laine injured, so I don't hold that against him.

Thanks for the insight.

But you never answered my previous question about how much do CBJ fans think Laine would cost?

 

[majormajor]

Thanks for the insight.

But you never answered my previous question about how much do CBJ fans think Laine would cost?

It depends who you ask. Personally I think on July 1st some clubs are going to turn white at the risk involved in a 7-8 year offer to Reinhart or Guentzel, and taking on Laine is going to look much more appealing. You get a lot of upside without the risk. I think the price will be above zero, but probably still not super high.

There is probably going to be some salary moving around, like an overpaid guy along with a pick (we were discussing Laine for Ekblad yesterday). Generically I'd say like a late 1st and a short term salary dump for Laine (or in lieu of a salary dump, salary retention on Laine).

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

It depends who you ask. Personally I think on July 1st some clubs are going to turn white at the risk involved in a 7-8 year offer to Reinhart or Guentzel, and taking on Laine is going to look much more appealing. You get a lot of upside without the risk. I think the price will be above zero, but probably still not super high.

I don't know about that. I think any GM who thinks either of those are going to be cheap or will agree to anything other than a 7/8 year contract is delusional.

There is probably going to be some salary moving around, like an overpaid guy along with a pick (we were discussing Laine for Ekblad yesterday). Generically I'd say like a late 1st and a short term salary dump for Laine (or in lieu of a salary dump, salary retention on Laine).

Yeah. I would pass on that. If it is possible to do this without retention for our Rangers 2nd round pick or our 3rd, I would consider it, even though I am not sold it is worth the risk. I don't think Francis cares about retention as much as giving up assets.

 

[KrakenSabresMike]

I don't know about that. I think any GM who thinks either of those are going to be cheap or will agree to anything other than a 7/8 year contract is delusional.

Yeah. I would pass on that. If it is possible to do this without retention for our Rangers 2nd round pick or our 3rd, I would consider it, even though I am not sold it is worth the risk. I don't think Francis cares about retention as much as giving up assets.

Looking at recent hx unless they are taking back a bad contact the cbj are paying someone else a lot ( 2nd at minimum) to take that contract esp bc it’s for more than 1 year and he’s still in the player assistance program. For example, there is debate in Buffalo as to whether we would be willing to send them Skinner in exchange for him… And a lot of folks here aren’t even sure we would do that. And that’s a $9 million anchor for 3 more years. So no way in hell they’re getting a first round. Or anything close to that

 

[majormajor]

I don't know about that. I think any GM who thinks either of those are going to be cheap or will agree to anything other than a 7/8 year contract is delusional.

I am saying that on July 1st, once the cost gets bidded up to ridiculous levels, that Laine's contract is going to look very appetizing in comparison. The risk is minimal.

No one thinks Reinhart or Guentzel will be cheap, but it's still going to hit home on July 1st when the players can credibly demand a $60m-$70m offer.

Looking at recent hx unless they are taking back a bad contact the cbj are paying someone else a lot ( 2nd at minimum) to take that contract esp bc it’s for more than 1 year and he’s still in the player assistance program. For example, there is debate in Buffalo as to whether we would be willing to send them Skinner in exchange for him… And a lot of folks here aren’t even sure we would do that. And that’s a $9 million anchor for 3 more years. So no way in hell they’re getting a first round. Or anything close to that

Apparently Laine is ready to go, he's done with the PAP. There's just a technicality that they can't clear someone for action during the offseason.

Laine is six years younger than Jeff Skinner, with considerably higher upside. I don't think it's a good point of comparison.

 

[KrakenSabresMike]

I am saying that on July 1st, once the cost gets bidded up to ridiculous levels, that Laine's contract is going to look very appetizing in comparison. The risk is minimal.

No one thinks Reinhart or Guentzel will be cheap, but it's still going to hit home on July 1st when the players can credibly demand a $60m-$70m offer.



Apparently Laine is ready to go, he's done with the PAP. There's just a technicality that they can't clear someone for action during the offseason.

Laine is six years younger than Jeff Skinner, with considerably higher upside. I don't think it's a good point of comparison.

It is completely a good point of comparison - and one brought up on multiple media outlets as a possible. They are two mostly offensive players who can be defensive black holes… Except skinner has actually performed better recently than laine has. Go look at the last 3 years ….and who score 82 points the years before last. Skinner “ stunk” last year and many believe was playing injured and still put up 46 pt.

TBH - and many if not most Sabres fans feel this way… I don’t think I would trade Skinner straight up for laine. Skinner will do fine next year under ruff and laine has the potential to crater even more. The Sabres just want that 9 mil in space bc they have too many scoring forwards that are the same and we need to get a different type of player. Getting another $8 million player doesn’t solve that… This is all to be said that his value is not very much in a trade at all.

And to your 1st point on Reinhart etc…zero people are going to think laine contract looks better. He’s been a 50 ish point player recently - can buy that for a winger on the free agent market for way less than $8 million. Nothing is making that contract look better… I just don’t follow the logic there. If Austin matthews was a free agent and got $13 million a year, I feel better about Jeff Skinner getting 9 million because that’s a lot of money? Don’t think so… Same thing when 57 goals score hits the market. No one’s going to start thinking an $8 million overpaid player is a good deal because the other one wants 9 or 10

 

[majormajor]

It is completely a good point of comparison - and one brought up on multiple media outlets as a possible. They are two mostly offensive players who can be defensive black holes… Except skinner has actually performed better recently than laine has. Go look at the last 3 years ….and who score 82 points the years before last. Skinner “ stunk” last year and many believe was playing injured and still put up 46 pt.

TBH - and many if not most Sabres fans feel this way… I don’t think I would trade Skinner straight up for laine. Skinner will do fine next year under ruff and laine has the potential to crater even more. The Sabres just want that 9 mil in space bc they have too many scoring forwards that are the same and we need to get a different type of player. Getting another $8 million player doesn’t solve that… This is all to be said that his value is not very much in a trade at all.

And to your 1st point on Reinhart etc…zero people are going to think laine contract looks better. He’s been a 50 ish point player recently - can buy that for a winger on the free agent market for way less than $8 million. Nothing is making that contract look better… I just don’t follow the logic there. If Austin matthews was a free agent and got $13 million a year, I feel better about Jeff Skinner getting 9 million because that’s a lot of money? Don’t think so… Same thing when 57 goals score hits the market. No one’s going to start thinking an $8 million overpaid player is a good deal because the other one wants 9 or 10

I'm pretty sure you noticed the games played, which is the real concern with Laine. He had 108 pts in 111 games before this season. But sure call him a 50 pt player.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I'm pretty sure you noticed the games played, which is the real concern with Laine. He had 108 pts in 111 games before this season. But sure call him a 50 pt player.

Yeah. I don't think the concern with Laine is production. It is more about if he can play close to a full season. If he can, I see 55-60 points as his floor.

But that "if" is the biggest risk of them all, given he has not played more than 56 games in the last 3 seasons. And that, does not justify a 8.75M x 2 contract.

 

[Irie]

Yeah. I don't think the concern with Laine is production. It is more about if he can play close to a full season. If he can, I see 55-60 points as his floor.

But that "if" is the biggest risk of them all, given he has not played more than 56 games in the last 3 seasons. And that, does not justify a 8.75M x 2 contract.

I would worry about his production in Seattle for sure. I would not expect him to replicate earlier season numbers playing with the personnel the Kraken have.

He's put up close to PPG seasons playing with a younger Stastny, Voracek, and Gaudreau, but dropped to a 50pt player playing with Bryan little.

Put him on a line with Wright and Bjorkstrand and 50-55 points is about what I would expect. Useful for sure, but not worth 8.7M.

I just don't think the Kraken have the center to play with him that can extract the full potential value of that contract.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I would worry about his production in Seattle for sure. I would not expect him to replicate earlier season numbers playing with the personnel the Kraken have.

He's put up close to PPG seasons playing with a younger Stastny, Voracek, and Gaudreau, but dropped to a 50pt player playing with Bryan little.

Put him on a line with Wright and Bjorkstrand and 50-55 points is about what I would expect. Useful for sure, but not worth 8.7M.

I just don't think the Kraken have the center to play with him that can extract the full potential value of that contract.

If McCann can put on 70 points with our current top-6, I am not sure why Laine could not. That being said, the term, AAV and where we are at with our roster let us afford to take the risk of taking him on even if he was a 55-60 point player. But my worry with him has always been what he costs. If he was being given for free, it is a no brainer in my opinion given where we are at and with our cap flexibility.

Even if Laine completely fails in Seattle, all it would cost us is cap space. We should not invest in any long-term contracts UNLESS it is the likes of Necas, Marner, etc., i.e., players around 25-26 who can be part of the core going forward.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Apparently the Sens are interested in Brandon Tanev

They are trying to pull out all the stops to convince his brother to sign in Ottawa

How was Tanev this past season? Would the Kraken be interested in trading him? If so, what do you think the cost would be?

 

[Irie]

If McCann can put on 70 points with our current top-6, I am not sure why Laine could not. That being said, the term, AAV and where we are at with our roster let us afford to take the risk of taking him on even if he was a 55-60 point player. But my worry with him has always been what he costs. If he was being given for free, it is a no brainer in my opinion given where we are at and with our cap flexibility.

Even if Laine completely fails in Seattle, all it would cost us is cap space. We should not invest in any long-term contracts UNLESS it is the likes of Necas, Marner, etc., i.e., players around 25-26 who can be part of the core going forward.

Opportunity cost is the issue here for me.

That 8.7M should be used to upgrade their #1 center, not spent on a redundant winger imo.

McCann scored over a third of his points on the PP. I have to believe that Laine and McCann would both be playing the same role on the Kraken's PP, so if you are giving Laine those minutes to boost his production, than McCann's production is going to suffer. If McCann was out of the picture, the move would make sense, but with him in the mix, I feel like adding Laine's contract is negative value in terms of the flexibility to construct a better roster.