Proposal: Kotkaniemi for Graves 1 for 1

[Pens2thecup871]

Just like the thread title states, Pittsburgh would receive Kotkaniemi with 6 years left at 4.82 and Carolina receives Graves with 5 years left at 4.5 mil. Both are players performing under their contract worth and would likely require a hockey trade to clear their respective contracts. Carolina needs a LD secured for the near future and the Penguins lack youth scoring depth in the middle 6 with both teams rumored to want out from either contract.

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[WreckingCrew]

This was discussed previously and was a resounding "F**K NO" already...because KK at worst has a dirt cheap buyout, and at best is still an effective 3C who has shown flashes of more. He's a useful player even if his cap hit is a bit high or he's a "bust" for his draft position. Graves on the other hand is "meh" with a bad contract. Canes can buyout KK and sign a better player than Graves. Also, Canes don't need a LD, we have Slavin-Orlov next year, Nikishin the year after, and can easily find a cheaper 3LD...if anything we need a sure-fire top-4 RHD

 

[Lemieuxfan]

What if the pens would retain 1 Mio, or if a 3rd rounder was added?

 

[Drake1588]

I feel Kotkaniemi is a nice player for what he does in a 3rd line role, just paid a little too much to do it. Good third liners have value to a club. Good third liners are about to get more expensive, with the two summers of salary inflation coming up, and he's cost controlled.

Graves would be addition by subtraction for the Pens, since he isn't as useful even in a third pairing role and when disregarding his AAV.

Every Pens fan I know wants nothing to do with Graves (but knows there's little chance of dumping that contract). I think Carolina declines, quickly.

 

[spockBokk]

The point of dealing Kotkaniemi would be to free up cap space or take back a player that could be useful. Graves wouldn’t be useful for CAR, so no point.

 

[jfhabs]

This was discussed previously and was a resounding "F**K NO" already...because KK at worst has a dirt cheap buyout, and at best is still an effective 3C who has shown flashes of more. He's a useful player even if his cap hit is a bit high or he's a "bust" for his draft position. Graves on the other hand is "meh" with a bad contract. Canes can buyout KK and sign a better player than Graves. Also, Canes don't need a LD, we have Slavin-Orlov next year, Nikishin the year after, and can easily find a cheaper 3LD...if anything we need a sure-fire top-4 RHD

If he truly was an effective 3C he would've played there in the playoffs and his contract would be fine....

 

[WreckingCrew]

If he truly was an effective 3C he would've played there in the playoffs and his contract would be fine....

Because RBA insists on forever playing Staal there even when he should be 4C, and none of Drury/KK/Kuzy really grabbed the reins of 2C so they were rotating around as 2C/4C.

 

[Chan790]

This is a No

If he truly was an effective 3C he would've played there in the playoffs and his contract would be fine....

Staal, Drury, Kotkaniemi, Ponomarev: 4 NHL or NHL-ready 3C-quality Cs. That was our logjam last year. We hoped one of the last 3 would step-up...

We shipped Pony to Pittsburgh. That left 3 Cs, 2 spots.

We added Kuznetsov. 4 Cs, 2 spots. We tried Kuzy in the top-6...no dice. Probably trying again this year.

So...3 legit 3Cs. Two bottom-6 C spots. If we're playing Koko, who sits? Staal or Drury?

We're just trying to deal from our surplus. It's not a commentary on Kotkaniemi's effectiveness as a 3C. It is a commentary on the 2C he's not.

 

[dgibb10]

This was discussed previously and was a resounding "F**K NO" already...because KK at worst has a dirt cheap buyout, and at best is still an effective 3C who has shown flashes of more. He's a useful player even if his cap hit is a bit high or he's a "bust" for his draft position. Graves on the other hand is "meh" with a bad contract. Canes can buyout KK and sign a better player than Graves. Also, Canes don't need a LD, we have Slavin-Orlov next year, Nikishin the year after, and can easily find a cheaper 3LD...if anything we need a sure-fire top-4 RHD

Ryan Graves contract has 22.5 million dollars left on it
KK buyout has an overall cap charge of 8.88 mill (spread out)

That would leave approximately 13.62 mill to find a better player than ryan graves for 5 years, or about 2.7 mill AAV. Where are you signing this player?

 

[WreckingCrew]

Ryan Graves contract has 22.5 million dollars left on it
KK buyout has an overall cap charge of 8.88 mill (spread out)

That would leave approximately 13.62 mill to find a better player than ryan graves for 5 years, or about 2.7 mill AAV. Where are you signing this player?

I mean we already resigned Jalen Chatfield for 3 years for $3M...and I'm sure we can find some cheaper vet 3D players over the next few years. Also that's not how cap space works (you're lookin at total $, which is weird). Buyout KK and we have ~$4M/yr for someone better than Graves

 

[dgibb10]

I mean we already resigned Jalen Chatfield for 3 years for $3M. Also that's not how cap space works (you're lookin at total $, which is weird). Buyout KK and we have ~$4M/yr for someone better than Graves

Again, it would be 3.7 mill you'd have approximately left and then you'd be eating up money for another half decade after that, which you can pretend doesn't exist if you want.

And again, who are you finding on a sub 20 mill deal better than 5 years of Ryan Graves, and not a short term deal, because that's gonna cost more when you

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Can’t see why Carolina does this. KK is overpaid but at least serviceable. Graves was awful.

 

[Mrb1p]

Not sure value is there for the Canes but there is something to be said about Graves skillset pretty seamlessly translating to the Canes blueline. I think he would thrive there.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Again, it would be 3.7 mill you'd have approximately left and then you'd be eating up money for another half decade after that, which you can pretend doesn't exist if you want.

And again, who are you finding on a sub 20 mill deal better than 5 years of Ryan Graves, and not a short term deal, because that's gonna cost more when you

Eating up <$1M, 1% of the cap, that's a drop in the bucket...plus we can still wait it out another year and reduce that further.

Not sure what the obsession with is with thinking it has to be 1 player substituting for Graves for 5 years...Chatty 3 years @$3M is better than Graves, then 2 years of a similar guy or rotate guys through. I can think of a lot of d-men we could probably have cheaper than Graves that are better over the next 5 years

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Again, it would be 3.7 mill you'd have approximately left and then you'd be eating up money for another half decade after that, which you can pretend doesn't exist if you want.

And again, who are you finding on a sub 20 mill deal better than 5 years of Ryan Graves, and not a short term deal, because that's gonna cost more when you

I think we'd feel OK about finding a 5-6 D man for under $3.7m per year. You're trying too hard to justify this one. Graves isn't a fit and we don't need help on LD.

Slavin gonna be locked up long term. We have Orlov for 2nd pair this year. Nikishin coming after that.

There's actually a ton of UFA LD after this year if we are looking into the future.

2025 NHL Free Agents - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

2025 NHL free agent players who are available to be signed during NHL free agency

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[Cardiac Jerks]

I think we'd feel OK about finding a 5-6 D man for under $3.7m per year. You're trying too hard to justify this one. Graves isn't a fit and we don't need help on LD.

Slavin gonna be locked up long term. We have Orlov for 2nd pair this year. Nikishin coming after that.

There's actually a ton of UFA LD after this year if we are looking into the future.

2025 NHL Free Agents - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

2025 NHL free agent players who are available to be signed during NHL free agency

www.capfriendly.com

Leave your logic out of this and take his crap.

 

[bleedgreen]

When inflation hits over the next two years I could see KK being seen as cheap labor, especially if he keeps growing the defensive side of his game. The offense will probably never be big but he can chip in. One side of me thinks they want to move his money to defense and give Drury his job, but the other part of me thinks they’ll double down on the original investment and keep him because he’ll be good value on the back half of the contract.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Carolina says no without the Penguins adding, but I'd like to see some actual proof that Kotkaniemi was "serviceable" while Graves was "terrible". I'd buy the second one fairly easily with Graves' performance last year, I'd just want more of an argument of why Kotkaniemi wasn't terrible last year as well.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What kind of skater is Graves?

 

[jfhabs]

This is a No

Staal, Drury, Kotkaniemi, Ponomarev: 4 NHL or NHL-ready 3C-quality Cs. That was our logjam last year. We hoped one of the last 3 would step-up...

We shipped Pony to Pittsburgh. That left 3 Cs, 2 spots.

We added Kuznetsov. 4 Cs, 2 spots. We tried Kuzy in the top-6...no dice. Probably trying again this year.

So...3 legit 3Cs. Two bottom-6 C spots. If we're playing Koko, who sits? Staal or Drury?

We're just trying to deal from our surplus. It's not a commentary on Kotkaniemi's effectiveness as a 3C. It is a commentary on the 2C he's not.

Why do you think they acquired Kuznetsov!?

 

[bleedgreen]

Why do you think they acquired Kuznetsov!?

Because we needed more offense from center, at half price it’s worth a shot on Kuzy. Kuzy is a very good playoff player as well, something we were looking out for. We’ve been scrambling for a 2C since it became clear it wasn’t KK, and they’ve said in press conferences they’d like a righty center.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

As a pens fan I'd do it. I think Graves would look great in the Canes System and at 4.5 is a healthy cost compared to seeing Demelo already getting 4.9.

They grabbed Kuznetsov up and KK kinda looking on the outs. Would be a good shake up deal.

Penguins give back the 4th or 5th round pick we got in the Guentzel trade

 

[jfhabs]

Because we needed more offense from center, at half price it’s worth a shot on Kuzy. Kuzy is a very good playoff player as well, something we were looking out for. We’ve been scrambling for a 2C since it became clear it wasn’t KK, and they’ve said in press conferences they’d like a righty center.

Exactly, I think it's clear at this point that KK is not what they expected when they signed him. I was just responding to a poster saying he was a quality 3rd line center. If he was , he would've played there in the playoffs, not on Kuznetsov wing, on the bottom 6.

The trade is not something the canes should do. I think Graves is worst.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Exactly, I think it's clear at this point that KK is not what they expected when they signed him. I was just responding to a poster saying he was a quality 3rd line center. If he was , he would've played there in the playoffs, not on Kuznetsov wing, on the bottom 6.

The trade is not something the canes should do. I think Graves is worst.

You could even say it would be a grave mistkake on the Canes end.

 

[SEALBound]

As a Pens fan, I say no unless it;s part of a larger deal.

KK is an overpaid 3C. I think at this point, he's rounding out to where his average level of play is. I don't think any team will discover any unfound potential there. It's an expensive 3C for several more years.

Graves is a 2nd pairing LD making market value money honestly. Yes, he had a down year, hence why we want to move him, but I think his larger body of work would suggest there's an ability to rebound back to where expectations are, especially on a team that has a better, cohesive team defense.

Penguins left side is also pretty slim without him - POJ and Pettersson. We have 3C options in house - Eller, Pono, Poulin, Yager. We don't have that depth on left defense. So again, unless it's part of a larger trade, I'm not making the swap. Now if Carolina wants to discuss KK+Drury for Graves+2nd or something like that, I would be open to it.