Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[Habby4Life]

The premature hatred of Dach is profoundly idiotic and supportive of the worst claims that people have made about this forum.

It’s called professional sports where results matter. He has been putrid this year and he has not proven to be a legit 2c is as well, that’s the currently reality.

Once again, so many other Habs, Gally, Drouin, Math etc face/faced much more harsh comments than Dach but I don’t see people crying hatred.

I guarantee you if this would have been Gally or Math coming back similar injury with similar play folks would be tearing them apart. The critique of Kirby isn’t in the same ballpark that Drouin faced who too had serious injuries and issues that affected his play. NHL isn’t a blue ribbon everyone gets a trophy league. Kirby has been awful and it’s fair game to say so. 34 games isn’t a blip.

I’d be ok with the limited offense if I saw harder effort. CC came back from a serious injury and worked his tail off, the same can’t be said with Kirby.

 

[Sorinth]

If he ends the season without elevating his performance, I’m not sure we will retain him come the time of a contract extension. He’ll seek guaranteed top dollar (given his fragility) and we’ll be rightfully cautious against the downside risk of repeating this horror-show.

If he doesn't elevate his performance he won't be seeking or getting top dollar. He'll be lucky to get a qualifying offer in that scenario.

 

[DAChampion]

Once again, so many other Habs, Gally, Drouin, Math etc face/faced much more harsh comments than Dach but I don’t see people crying hatred.

Completely incorrect and irrelevant.

Drouin was given a vastly better contract, and given better minutes, and a lot more opportunity.

Gallagher is well appreciated for what he has done over a decade for the team, he's just no longer able.

 

[ryan callahan]

Completely incorrect and irrelevant.

Drouin was given a vastly better contract, and given better minutes, and a lot more opportunity.

Gallagher is well appreciated for what he has done over a decade for the team, he's just no longer able.

LMAOOOOOOO are you even active on this forum? If you think Drouin was ever appreciated by this fanbase past his 1st/2nd year I don't know what to tell you. And Gallagher hasn't had a large fan backing in half a decade. Stop spewing nonsense Dach is terrible.

 

[DAChampion]

LMAOOOOOOO are you even active on this forum? If you think Drouin was ever appreciated by this fanbase past his 1st/2nd year I don't know what to tell you. And Gallagher hasn't had a large fan backing in half a decade. Stop spewing nonsense Dach is terrible.

I'm active, you are mistaken and misguided.

Drouin had a lot of defenders in spite of having fewer tools, less talent, and a higher cost, than Dach.

Gallagher was appreciated up to the Finals run, approximately.

 

[ryan callahan]

I'm active, you are mistaken and misguided.

Drouin had a lot of defenders in spite of having fewer tools, less talent, and a higher cost, than Dach.

Gallagher was appreciated up to the Finals run, approximately.

Clearly not if you defend a player at -24 with 9 pts. Still waiting for your campaign to bring up RHP because it was unfair he wasn't given a long enough leash after his injury.

 

[rahad]

The Toffoli trade was criticized for trading him too quickly and not getting enough back with the term he had. Yet one can argue MTL got the best return out of CGY and NJD. Also noteworthy that was after he produced better numbers out of Montreal and the aforementioned 70 pts season. A 1st is a 1st. If Evans is traded for a 1st and we pick a bust that means it was a bad trade? Things don't work that way. Especially when talking about trading players over 30 or close to it.

My point for Dach is that if he returns to form in 20 games, we're okay with just pivoting back and stop saying it was a bad trade? I don't understand the need from some to make premature takes Especially when the player concerned has been making progress. What's exactly the point?

We also wanted to drop at the bottom of the standing. With Taffoli is highly possible we don't finish in the bottom 5 in 2023 and 2024.

 

[DAChampion]

Clearly not if you defend a player at -24 with 9 pts. Still waiting for your campaign to bring up RHP because it was unfair he wasn't given a long enough leash after his injury.

I "defend" Dach on his potential, not his current performance.

Similarly with RHP, whose top end potential is to have a few stints in the NHL. If RHP doesn't give 110% every shift, he can't be in the NHL.

 

[Habby4Life]

Completely incorrect and irrelevant.

Drouin was given a vastly better contract, and given better minutes, and a lot more opportunity.

Gallagher is well appreciated for what he has done over a decade for the team, he's just no longer able.

Incorrect, he has been garbage this year, and has not proven to be a top 6c, those are facts.

Who cares what Drouins contract was. The guy had far more unrealistic expectations placed on him, and faced harsher criticism than Kirby could ever imagine despite producing at a level Kirby has never come close to. Kirby has been given minutes on top line, 2nd line, consistent PP time and still sucks.

Yeah, gally was appreciated the last couple of years, lol. You should go back and read the threads, it was endless bashing.

Kirby has played like shit, his effort level on some nights has been piss poor and he deserves to be called out. In fact, he has been coddled. Any other guy would have been in the press box weeks ago.

We supposed to wait until game 72 before we call his game out. 34 games of crap is no short stint.

 

[ryan callahan]

I "defend" Dach on his potential, not his current performance.

Similarly with RHP, whose top end potential is to have a few stints in the NHL. If RHP doesn't give 110% every shift, he can't be in the NHL.

Well that's where we disagree. Dach's "potential" is not worth the hassle. His shot isn't anything special, he isn't a bad skater but is not a burner either and he isn't a terribly physical player. He does have nice hands but it rarely turns into anything. Also, RHP's stretch with Suzuki at the end of 22-23 was a better stretch than Dach ever had in his career.

 

[Habby4Life]

History shows for the most part that teams that give up and trade 3rd ova picks early on is for a reason, the majority don’t pan out. For the Habs sake, hope this changes but it does not look good.

 

[ReHabs]

If he doesn't elevate his performance he won't be seeking or getting top dollar. He'll be lucky to get a qualifying offer in that scenario.

His next contract is due after next season. Doubt he’ll be in a malaise until then. It would be a world class bust, a catastrophic outcome for the player and team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The Toffoli trade was criticized for trading him too quickly and not getting enough back with the term he had. Yet one can argue MTL got the best return out of CGY and NJD. Also noteworthy that was after he produced better numbers out of Montreal and the aforementioned 70 pts season. A 1st is a 1st. If Evans is traded for a 1st and we pick a bust that means it was a bad trade? Things don't work that way. Especially when talking about trading players over 30 or close to it.

My point for Dach is that if he returns to form in 20 games, we're okay with just pivoting back and stop saying it was a bad trade? I don't understand the need from some to make premature takes Especially when the player concerned has been making progress. What's exactly the point?

I don’t remember much in the way of criticism in the Toffoli deal. That was a means to an end.

As for Dach, he looked great before his injury. People here were stoked and you only have to read earlier in this thread to see it. But the future is murky for him.

There’s no urgency to dump him or get a 2nd line center - but I’m sure they’re looking and they should. He still has potential but we can’t rely on him to be the player he looked like he was turning into.

 

[Sorinth]

His next contract is due after next season. Doubt he’ll be in a malaise until then. It would be a world class bust, a catastrophic outcome for the player and team.

Sure but how is Dach different from every other NHL player? Pretty much every player has their contract based heavily off the previous year's performance and not the whole body of work. If Dach has a good year, yeah he'll look for a contract based off that year, same as how people are talking multiple years at 4m for Evans who is likely to put up 30 points for the first time in his career this year.

 

[ReHabs]

Sure but how is Dach different from every other NHL player? Pretty much every player has their contract based heavily off the previous year's performance and not the whole body of work. If Dach has a good year, yeah he'll look for a contract based off that year, same as how people are talking multiple years at 4m for Evans who is likely to put up 30 points for the first time in his career this year.

Dach has had two catastrophic injuries + two subsequent recovery season in which he shat the bed (this one, at least for 30 games into a season). That’s coming on four lost seasons in his young career so far.

If Hughes isn’t an imbecile, and I don’t think he is, he would be cautious about giving Dach a contract based on whatever Dach achieves next season. The creeping doubt for Dach’s fragility and his willingness to rehab and get back to speed after injuries will be there.

Evans should chase top dollar. Hopefully far away from here.

 

[Ozmodiar]

I think he’s still limited, physically.

I don’t think that should change how the Habs handle the situation - they still have to line up a 2C option before next season.

However, I find some of the criticisms a bit harsh, particularly those regarding his playing style. (lack of effort, soft, etc)

 

[Sorinth]

Dach has had two catastrophic injuries + two subsequent recovery season in which he shat the bed (this one, at least for 30 games into a season). That’s coming on four lost seasons in his young career so far.

If Hughes isn’t an imbecile, and I don’t think he is, he would be cautious about giving Dach a contract based on whatever Dach achieves next season. The creeping doubt for Dach’s fragility and his willingness to rehab and get back to speed after injuries will be there.

Evans should chase top dollar. Hopefully far away from here.

Again how is Dach different though? Plenty of players have had injury trouble and were still worth signing. A guy like Markov was even more fragile and injury prone then Dach, he then became back and was our iron man for a while.

At the end of the day we need to be cautious with every contract, whether it's Dach, Laine, Hutson, Evans, even the short term stop gap solutions like taking on Carrier's contract you ned to be cautious with. But that caution is essentially translates to taking the time to do your homework and then make a decision on whether the risk is worth the reward. Whether Dach will be worth the risk depends on what his hypothetical rebound actually looks like so it's impossible to argue for or against at the moment.

 

[DAChampion]

Dach has had two catastrophic injuries + two subsequent recovery season in which he shat the bed (this one, at least for 30 games into a season). That’s coming on four lost seasons in his young career so far.

If Hughes isn’t an imbecile, and I don’t think he is, he would be cautious about giving Dach a contract based on whatever Dach achieves next season. The creeping doubt for Dach’s fragility and his willingness to rehab and get back to speed after injuries will be there.

Evans should chase top dollar. Hopefully far away from here.

It's way too early to think about Dach's extension.

Among the variables, we don't know how any of Hage, Beck, Kappanen, or for that matter Dach (!!!) will look 18 months from now.

Evans has an ethical responsibility to his family to chase too dollar, so he's probably leaving.

 

[salbutera]

It's way too early to think about Dach's extension.

Among the variables, we don't know how any of Hage, Beck, Kappanen, or for that matter Dach (!!!) will look 18 months from now.

Evans has an ethical responsibility to his family to chase too dollar, so he's probably leaving.

I don’t think he is… for all the slack MSLs has revived by the fanbase, Evans’ progression is a major success.

Evans also strikes me as player who understands who he is, I don’t thing he views himself as a top-2C as Danault for example did…

I suspect Evans will take term in exchange for AAV - I see HuGo locking him up for 5 yrs

 

[ReHabs]

Again how is Dach different though? Plenty of players have had injury trouble and were still worth signing. A guy like Markov was even more fragile and injury prone then Dach, he then became back and was our iron man for a while.

Markov had a history of performance. Dach has a career high 38pt season (cut short to injury). A very strange comparison to make.

At the end of the day we need to be cautious with every contract, whether it's Dach, Laine, Hutson, Evans, even the short term stop gap solutions like taking on Carrier's contract you ned to be cautious with. But that caution is essentially translates to taking the time to do your homework and then make a decision on whether the risk is worth the reward. Whether Dach will be worth the risk depends on what his hypothetical rebound actually looks like so it's impossible to argue for or against at the moment.

Glad to see you agree.

 

[ReHabs]

It's way too early to think about Dach's extension.

My point was more about how if Dach doesn’t turn it around this season then the acquisition will have turned sour, rather than to speculate whatever comes after this contract.

Dach and the Habs are victims of circumstance.

There is abundant hope he turns it around this season but he has 1pt in his last 15gp or something crazy like that. A contending team would’ve seen their season crater if they had relied on him. I don’t think Hughes will run that risk going forward.

Among the variables, we don't know how any of Hage, Beck, Kappanen, or for that matter Dach (!!!) will look 18 months from now.

If Dach smokes the next season (fingers crossed) it will make things difficult for Hughes in a good way. Better yet, he smokes the rest of the current season.

Would like to see Beck get some NHL action soon though.

Evans has an ethical responsibility to his family to chase too dollar, so he's probably leaving.

Hopefully we can sell him at the deadline for a juicy return too.

 

[Habs]

If Hughes isn’t an imbecile, and I don’t think he is, he would be cautious about giving Dach a contract based on whatever Dach achieves next season. The creeping doubt for Dach’s fragility and his willingness to rehab and get back to speed after injuries will be there.

He sure gave away the farm for Slaf after 1 decent season, I don't think GM's care about money that much anyways. They throw it around like drunken sailors , it doesn't really handcuff this team since no high prices UFA's sign here anyways. It's not as if we are saving a ton of money up to sign some superstar , it has never happened.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

He sure gave away the farm for Slaf after 1 decent season, I don't think GM's care about money that much anyways. They throw it around like drunken sailors , it doesn't really handcuff this team since no high prices UFA's sign here anyways. It's not as if we are saving a ton of money up to sign some superstar , it has never happened.

No, but smartly managing the cap may allow you to add one or two solid depth pieces to round out your core.

Example being that Suzuki, Caufield and Slaf take up about what - 23.5m? Where as Matthews, Marner and Nylander cost you 36m. The Leafs three are better for sure, but it allows you to build a deeper roster which is what we’ll need to do to win.

 

[Sorinth]

Evans has an ethical responsibility to his family to chase too dollar, so he's probably leaving.

That's a wild take. He can provide for his family whether he maximizes his next contract or gives us a discount. If he's been smart with his money then he's probably already setup his family with more then enough to be set for life.

And even if his ethical responsibility was money and not happiness, which it isn't, then he should actually sign a contract with the Habs ASAP because one injury or cold streak can derail his UFA payday, so getting something locked in now is the more responsible thing to do.

 

[Sorinth]

He sure gave away the farm for Slaf after 1 decent season, I don't think GM's care about money that much anyways. They throw it around like drunken sailors , it doesn't really handcuff this team since no high prices UFA's sign here anyways. It's not as if we are saving a ton of money up to sign some superstar , it has never happened.

Mike Cammalleri was coming off a 39 goal 83 point season and his 6m cap hit was 10.5% of the cap, which today would be equivalent of 9.3m.

There's also players like Kovalev and now Laine, sure we didn't sign them as UFAs but we very much needed the cap space to keep them. If we trade for the UFA superstar and then sign them before they hit the market is that a distinction that matters?