Kingston Frontenacs 2024-25 Season Thread, Part II

[Fischhaber]

It wouldn’t have made them better. It would have shifted one hole to another hole.

You've said that before and I'm still in disbelief that you actually believe that first sentence to be true. Gibson is better than Hopkins right now. Just stop.

 

[Fischhaber]

The fans don’t make trades though- gms do.

That’s why we(the fans) are incredibly disappointed in cooper. They’re stuck in no man’s land right now they have to either A- buy lots- or B sell. Think we all know B is the best option right now but may not be even a realistic option with all the 19 year olds on the team


Soo would’ve taken BPA whether that’s Parker Vaughan, Owen Griffin, Tyler Hopkins, Caleb Malholtra, hell even Cole Zurawski or Luca Blonda. Would be stupid to just settle on a player because of a birth date. They’re not doing anything this year anyways you want the player with the best projection and they must feel Owen Griffin is their guy.. or Owen griffin is the best guy offered to them.

They want 07's because they are building for a Memorial Cup bid in the year that they will be 19. It appears that they went for the best 07 available in Hopkins and moved to the second best in Griffin. They probably checked in on Czata as well. I don't find that particularly surprising.

 

[OMG67]

You've said that before and I'm still in disbelief that you actually believe that first sentence to be true. Gibson is better than Hopkins right now. Just stop.

That’s not what I said. I said Kingston is not better. Trading their 2nd line centre for a first pairing D-Man doesn’t make them better. It makes them futile offensively. You have no idea how important Hopkins is for Kingston. He is playing a role he should not be playing but it is what it is. If he’s not the 2nd line centre then who is? McNamara? GLWT. How are they better?

It isn’t a fit for a trade. It’s not a big deal. Kingston isn’t a fit for a lot of teams. Their ‘07 group is crap. They don’t have an ‘08. They are short at centre. They have excess draft picks. That’s pretty much it. That buys 2nd tier players. The management knows that and that is what they will likely do.

 

[Fischhaber]

That’s not what I said. I said Kingston is not better. Trading their 2nd line centre for a first pairing D-Man doesn’t make them better. It makes them futile offensively. You have no idea how important Hopkins is for Kingston. He is playing a role he should not be playing but it is what it is. If he’s not the 2nd line centre then who is? McNamara? GLWT. How are they better?

It isn’t a fit for a trade. It’s not a big deal. Kingston isn’t a fit for a lot of teams. Their ‘07 group is crap. They don’t have an ‘08. They are short at centre. They have excess draft picks. That’s pretty much it. That buys 2nd tier players. The management knows that and that is what they will likely do.

You said what you said, just own it.

I understand that positional needs are important in trades and the wrong trade can make a team worse if the players swapped are of similar talent.

That being said, swapping a decent centre for an elite first pairing D, is an upgrade, positional needs be damned. Nothing was stopping them from adding another C if they made that kind of deal. That's historically a cheaper position to fill.

 

[beastintheeast]

That’s not what I said. I said Kingston is not better. Trading their 2nd line centre for a first pairing D-Man doesn’t make them better. It makes them futile offensively. You have no idea how important Hopkins is for Kingston. He is playing a role he should not be playing but it is what it is. If he’s not the 2nd line centre then who is? McNamara? GLWT. How are they better?

It isn’t a fit for a trade. It’s not a big deal. Kingston isn’t a fit for a lot of teams. Their ‘07 group is crap. They don’t have an ‘08. They are short at centre. They have excess draft picks. That’s pretty much it. That buys 2nd tier players. The management knows that and that is what they will likely do.

The chay is what this year is a 2nd tier player. I am starting to think that pinnelli will be a picks only player which is scary but there really is not that much out there.

Cooper and. Boyd as well as the other GM are limited by the market.
No offense but they really could not care what people on here want and most of us will never know about the phone calls

 

[leafs4life94]

He can't see my posts but the absurdity of him coming in here and saying

You said what you said, just own it.

when he blocked me for challenging him on a claim that Gibson was named top defensive defenseman and top shot blocker for the last two years is hilarious.

 

[DWI Dale]

when he blocked me for challenging him

You're not special. He blocks his fellow hounds fans who don't share his opinions too

 

[PuckLucker]

Rumour in the Soo is that Kingston was given every chance to get Gibson as a preferred trading partner and they declined. It's not that players don't want to go there or anything, the GM just doesn't want to deal.

I heard the same, wasn't only Gibson.
2 players as a package deal were ready to come to K-Town

 

[leafs4life94]

That’s not what I said. I said Kingston is not better. Trading their 2nd line centre for a first pairing D-Man doesn’t make them better. It makes them futile offensively. You have no idea how important Hopkins is for Kingston. He is playing a role he should not be playing but it is what it is. If he’s not the 2nd line centre then who is? McNamara? GLWT. How are they better?

It isn’t a fit for a trade. It’s not a big deal. Kingston isn’t a fit for a lot of teams. Their ‘07 group is crap. They don’t have an ‘08. They are short at centre. They have excess draft picks. That’s pretty much it. That buys 2nd tier players. The management knows that and that is what they will likely do.

I think the preseason trades around the league tainted expectations, myself included, of what you could get with a picks only trade.

Kingston has the picks to have made the Rehkopf trade while still having 3 2nds, 5 3rds and a 4th.

Prices will likely be different at the deadline of course but Kingston has enough picks to slightly overpay to get the player the want in place of a skater.

 

[PuckLucker]

The Frasca and Thibodeau trades were great trades IF they use the picks for upgrades elsewhere. Frasca isn't even at 20 points yet and although Thibodeau has put up points there wasn't much of a defensive game, and if the chatter on here is true, both weren't great in the room.

As far as I'm concerned those two moves and the Uronen trade have been Cooper's best moves.

2 Players asking out shouldn't necessarily be what a GM rests his hat on as the most successful move but I understand what you're saying - very good return for both.
Uronen pickup was huge and to have 2 Finns on the same team and win a Silver medal at World Jr's is a great look

 

[PuckLucker]

The fans don’t make trades though- gms do.

That’s why we(the fans) are incredibly disappointed in cooper. They’re stuck in no man’s land right now they have to either A- buy lots- or B sell. Think we all know B is the best option right now but may not be even a realistic option with all the 19 year olds on the team

But this organization hasn't done A or B as you just suggested?
Teams have been calling and inquiring about our top assets but the Fronts aren't selling or the ask is too much, so teams move on and facilitate a trade with another team who is realistic

 

[howlman]

Day after day looking more and more like Kingston doesn’t have much of a chance this year

They need to sell.
Not sure how they would go about this but that would be the smartest decision cooper could possibly make imo. If you sell Burns and Miedema to a team like Erie or Brantford and get Challenger/o’donnell plus picks then that could be the only move they need to make. No 08 FRP is going to KILL them. Betts is going to be great though by the looks of it. a weak 07 group minus Hopkins. Could be a decent 08 group if we added a young player and then 2 first round picks and probably a second we would get in a trade for that to add next year. Still have guys like battaglia(until deadline next year) Hopkins, Dervin, Williamson all of next year with some great OA’s in Soto, Mcnamara and McGowan

Again. Well aware this isn’t what is going to happen. Just something I’d like to happen.

Sudbury they add and keep musty they have potential to be better than us too. Brampton will get it together at some point here and rumours of adding Konnor smith, Brantford rumours of adding Pinelli after they’ve already had our number- Niagara’s been great this year too. We may end up as low as 7th in the conference.. AGAIN.

Literally carbon copy of what happened last year. Teams loading up around us and we sit and watch and do absolutely nothing.

Convinced even if they added a guy like Jett Luchanko that still wouldn’t do much for us. Still wouldn’t like them over Oshawa, Barrie for example not even factoring in potentially Sudbury and Brampton buying

Just a lost cause this year- cooper needs to sell. Plain and simple.

Sounds like a bloodbath in the Eastern Conference playoffs upcoming. Going to be some very entertaining series. Goaltending will be paramount and having someone who can steal games if needed for all teams trying to reach the finals

 

[OMG67]

You said what you said, just own it.

I understand that positional needs are important in trades and the wrong trade can make a team worse if the players swapped are of similar talent.

That being said, swapping a decent centre for an elite first pairing D, is an upgrade, positional needs be damned. Nothing was stopping them from adding another C if they made that kind of deal. That's historically a cheaper position to fill.

I just said it in the post you just quoted… LOL. Swapping Hopkins (plus picks) for Gibson is essentially filling one major need and creating another Major need, except with additional picks going out the door, they have less assets to fix their newly created need. It is not rocket science. I don’t’ know why you continue to argue it. Sideways move.

If it were Hopkins for Gibson straight up with no picks involved then, yes, not a sideways move. But once they deplete additional picks, they further screw themselves.

You need to understand that just because Player “A” is good doesn’t mean that Team “B” has suitable assets to make a deal. It is so basic, again, I don’t understand why you don’t understand.

Trades like these need to be made from valuable “EXCESS DEPTH” which Kingston does not have. Hopkins is not excess depth. Griffin and Brady Smith are excess depth for Oshawa. Parker Vaughn is excess depth for Barrie. Hopkins is not excess depth for Kingston.

 

[Fischhaber]

I just said it in the post you just quoted… LOL. Swapping Hopkins (plus picks) for Gibson is essentially filling one major need and creating another Major need, except with additional picks going out the door, they have less assets to fix their newly created need. It is not rocket science. I don’t’ know why you continue to argue it. Sideways move.

If it were Hopkins for Gibson straight up with no picks involved then, yes, not a sideways move. But once they deplete additional picks, they further screw themselves.

You need to understand that just because Player “A” is good doesn’t mean that Team “B” has suitable assets to make a deal. It is so basic, again, I don’t understand why you don’t understand.

I don't know if I've ever discussed hockey with someone so stubborn. I'm not playing these games of changing the goalposts and talking about picks now. I don't disagree with anything in your most recent post.

"
OMG67 said:
It wouldn’t have made them better."

You said this about Kingston's roster in reference to swapping Hopkins for Gibson. You are wrong. It would make them better. A lot better.

I'm not going to respond to any more mental gymnastics. We can discuss another topic another time. Have a good night.

 

[Houndzfan20]

I just said it in the post you just quoted… LOL. Swapping Hopkins (plus picks) for Gibson is essentially filling one major need and creating another Major need, except with additional picks going out the door, they have less assets to fix their newly created need. It is not rocket science. I don’t’ know why you continue to argue it. Sideways move.

If it were Hopkins for Gibson straight up with no picks involved then, yes, not a sideways move. But once they deplete additional picks, they further screw themselves.

You need to understand that just because Player “A” is good doesn’t mean that Team “B” has suitable assets to make a deal. It is so basic, again, I don’t understand why you don’t understand.

Trades like these need to be made from valuable “EXCESS DEPTH” which Kingston does not have. Hopkins is not excess depth. Griffin and Brady Smith are excess depth for Oshawa. Parker Vaughn is excess depth for Barrie. Hopkins is not excess depth for Kingston.

It's a losing battle man. Until he changes your mind or hears what he wants from you, it'll go round and round and round.

Good luck!

 

[frontsfan67]

But this organization hasn't done A or B as you just suggested?

Well aware. I am saying they need to do something by then. Can’t just stand pat. Either buy or sell. I’d prefer the sell.

Teams have been calling and inquiring about our top assets but the Fronts aren't selling or the ask is too much, so teams move on and facilitate a trade with another team who is realistic

Thanks Cooper

They want 07's because they are building for a Memorial Cup bid in the year that they will be 19. It appears that they went for the best 07 available in Hopkins and moved to the second best in Griffin. They probably checked in on Czata as well. I don't find that particularly surprising.

Makes sense didn’t think of them hosting

 

[OMG67]

It's a losing battle man. Until he changes your mind or hears what he wants from you, it'll go round and round and round.

Good luck!

Not the other way around? Really?

I clearly detailed the reason why it was a sideways move. He simply does not want to discuss the reasons why. He is steadfast that there is no way it is a sideways move. He has not moved at all. Gibson is better than Hopkins so the trade should be made because it makes Kingston better. The end. That’s fine. So I add ADDITIONAL REASONS to help fortify my stance and he continues to say the same thing. By doing so, I am changing the goalposts? The goalposts are that it is a sideways move (yes or no). How have the goalposts changed? The only reason why it is a sideways move is because of positional need? There are no other reasons? Only one? Really? You cannot think of additional reasons why a trade makes no sense? And once one reason is given, you cannot add other reasons during a discussion to fortify your position? Adding additional reasons in a discussion is changing the goalposts? That is ridiculous.

It is like the issue is black and white. It is not. No teams ever trade key current players in buyer moves because they then have to replace that player with another trade. It is so basic. It is almost sickening how ridiculous this conversation is. It is like if Oshawa did not have Griffin and Smith but wanted Gibson, they trade Danford. OK. I guess.

We had the same conversation amongst Kingston fans at the beginning of the season regarding Henry Mews. All of the Kingston fans agreed there was no fit SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE it would need to include Hopkins. The Kingston fans understand the way things are done and that many times teams do not have a right fit. It is the reason why on this thread on multiple occasions, there has been a lot of finger pointing towards Cooper because he didn’t trade Ludwinski to add depth for this roster and didn’t draft a tradable asset this past draft.

Every Kingston fan will say the same thing. They CANNOT TRADE HOPKINS unless it is loppsided to the point that they fill Hopkins position AND another major position of need. So, I guess if it is Hopkins for Gibson and Allard then maybe they could work out a deal but the picks required to complete that deal make it difficult to do the other moves required. But, again, adding that wouldn’t be changing the goalposts in the conversation with him, it would be playing a completely different sport….

 

[frontsfan67]

Sounds like a bloodbath in the Eastern Conference playoffs upcoming. Going to be some very entertaining series. Goaltending will be paramount and having someone who can steal games if needed for all teams trying to reach the finals

I agree.

Gotta give the slight edge to both barrie a Oshawa for that with Oster the reigning goalie of the year and Barrie 2 above average goalies- starter on team USA.

 

[leafs4life94]

Well aware. I am saying they need to do something by then. Can’t just stand pat. Either buy or sell. I’d prefer the sell.

Thanks Cooper

I do wonder if Springer is chiming in against a sell. They already aren't the strongest fan-wise, and if they sell after a pretty solid start people will really start to give up on them.

 

[OMG67]

I do wonder if Springer is chiming in against a sell. They already aren't the strongest fan-wise, and if they sell after a pretty solid start people will really start to give up on them.

Honest opinion though. Do you think it would truly get worse? If they buy this year, next year will be super poor. The fans will not come anyway.

IMO, they need to choose how they want to approach the next cycle. If it is about fan engagement then they need to be consistently good but not necessarily great. That provides a situation where they can keep existing fans in seats. Let Mann and the scouts build a team organically that is consistently good.

The other issue is Mann himself. Does he want to languish long term in Kingston? Will making a run this year followed by a down year next year be better or worse for him personally?

The ‘07 crop is pretty barren. Basically only Hopkins (maybe Dervin since he looks good in minimal showing). It will be tough to rebuild anyway. So, there is that challenge. It looks like you build around the ‘08s and ‘09s but if you trade your picks, you don't get ‘09s which is the same issue Peterborough is having with their ‘07 crop outside their four 1st round picks. So, if your ‘07s are weak and you trade your ‘09 picks and you want to build around your ‘08s, how do you do that?

I think there are a lot of variables that aren’t really seen right now. IMO, I would follow the advice of @frontsfan67 I would do a measured sell, try to align the draft picks strategically, drop a bit in the standings, pick better in ‘09 and try to accumulate the players including the Comp Pick for the Malhotra defection. Look to strategically move Hopkins next year or the year after and rip the bandaid right off. Allow Mann to work with a group fully developed by him. Slowly build up a strong franchise that is seen as consistent and strong with strong development to help recruit currently harder to recruit players. It is a two season investment (remainder of this year and next year). Start to market the top guys better.

 

[BeliveauFan4ever]

Not the other way around? Really?

I clearly detailed the reason why it was a sideways move. He simply does not want to discuss the reasons why. He is steadfast that there is no way it is a sideways move. He has not moved at all. Gibson is better than Hopkins so the trade should be made because it makes Kingston better. The end. That’s fine. So I add ADDITIONAL REASONS to help fortify my stance and he continues to say the same thing. By doing so, I am changing the goalposts? The goalposts are that it is a sideways move (yes or no). How have the goalposts changed? The only reason why it is a sideways move is because of positional need? There are no other reasons? Only one? Really? You cannot think of additional reasons why a trade makes no sense? And once one reason is given, you cannot add other reasons during a discussion to fortify your position? Adding additional reasons in a discussion is changing the goalposts? That is ridiculous.

It is like the issue is black and white. It is not. No teams ever trade key current players in buyer moves because they then have to replace that player with another trade. It is so basic. It is almost sickening how ridiculous this conversation is. It is like if Oshawa did not have Griffin and Smith but wanted Gibson, they trade Danford. OK. I guess.

We had the same conversation amongst Kingston fans at the beginning of the season regarding Henry Mews. All of the Kingston fans agreed there was no fit SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE it would need to include Hopkins. The Kingston fans understand the way things are done and that many times teams do not have a right fit. It is the reason why on this thread on multiple occasions, there has been a lot of finger pointing towards Cooper because he didn’t trade Ludwinski to add depth for this roster and didn’t draft a tradable asset this past draft.

Every Kingston fan will say the same thing. They CANNOT TRADE HOPKINS unless it is loppsided to the point that they fill Hopkins position AND another major position of need. So, I guess if it is Hopkins for Gibson and Allard then maybe they could work out a deal but the picks required to complete that deal make it difficult to do the other moves required. But, again, adding that wouldn’t be changing the goalposts in the conversation with him, it would be playing a completely different sport….

The reasons for Kingston not wanting to deal Hopkins are understandable, right off the hop.

Sometimes, birth year, position and other stats only tell part of the story.

Maybe Hopkins is deemed an essential piece bc he’s a glue guy. His contributions go beyond stats.

Every team loves these kind of guys. And if recruiting is going through a tough stretch, their (hidden?) value goes up.

Don’t know the kid, but…my two cents, fwtw.

 

[OMG67]

The reasons for Kingston not wanting to deal Hopkins are understandable, right off the hop.

Sometimes, birth year, position and other stats only tell part of the story.

Maybe Hopkins is deemed an essential piece bc he’s a glue guy. His contributions go beyond stats.

Every team loves these kind of guys. And if recruiting us going through a tough stretch, their (hidden?) value goes up.

Don’t know the kid, but…my two cents, fwtw.

Honestly it is mostly because they have a lack of depth at centre. They don’t like McNamarra and seem to want to move him because he is bad in the room. Hopkins is probably already playing over his head as the 2nd centre. If they move him and move McNamarra to quell dressing room issues, they have one top 9 centre remaining. They are handcuffed. Such is life. The preemptive moves that needed to be made last season were not made and it shows now. Unfortunate that they spent a lot of assets and energy aligning this season and threw it away at last deadline.

 

[leafs4life94]

Honest opinion though. Do you think it would truly get worse? If they buy this year, next year will be super poor. The fans will not come anyway.

IMO, they need to choose how they want to approach the next cycle. If it is about fan engagement then they need to be consistently good but not necessarily great. That provides a situation where they can keep existing fans in seats. Let Mann and the scouts build a team organically that is consistently good.

The other issue is Mann himself. Does he want to languish long term in Kingston? Will making a run this year followed by a down year next year be better or worse for him personally?

The ‘07 crop is pretty barren. Basically only Hopkins (maybe Dervin since he looks good in minimal showing). It will be tough to rebuild anyway. So, there is that challenge. It looks like you build around the ‘08s and ‘09s but if you trade your picks, you don't get ‘09s which is the same issue Peterborough is having with their ‘07 crop outside their four 1st round picks. So, if your ‘07s are weak and you trade your ‘09 picks and you want to build around your ‘08s, how do you do that?

I think there are a lot of variables that aren’t really seen right now. IMO, I would follow the advice of @frontsfan67 I would do a measured sell, try to align the draft picks strategically, drop a bit in the standings, pick better in ‘09 and try to accumulate the players including the Comp Pick for the Malhotra defection. Look to strategically move Hopkins next year or the year after and rip the bandaid right off. Allow Mann to work with a group fully developed by him. Slowly build up a strong franchise that is seen as consistent and strong with strong development to help recruit currently harder to recruit players. It is a two season investment (remainder of this year and next year). Start to market the top guys better.

That's a fair question and I don't know, they already don't have the greatest casual fanbase but I would have to think a good chunk of them wouldnt bother seeing games if they see a good team moving good players.

A lot of my views are because I think next year is going to be ugly already, they'll have one great line in Battaglia/Hopkins/Soto (or other OA) but not a lot of top talent beyond that - Dervin and hopefully some 08 progress. D is quite barren but McGowan and Williamson would be a serviceable top pair on a low ranking team.

Even with the picks they have Kingston is somehow already in a tough spot for 09 picks - no 2nd and one pick in rounds 3-5. That also brings the other issue - weak drafting - but that's a whole different conversation lol

 

[OMG67]

That's a fair question and I don't know, they already don't have the greatest casual fanbase but I would have to think a good chunk of them wouldnt bother seeing games if they see a good team moving good players.

A lot of my views are because I think next year is going to be ugly already, they'll have one great line in Battaglia/Hopkins/Soto (or other OA) but not a lot of top talent beyond that - Dervin and hopefully some 08 progress. D is quite barren but McGowan and Williamson would be a serviceable top pair on a low ranking team.

Even with the picks they have Kingston is somehow already in a tough spot for 09 picks - no 2nd and one pick in rounds 3-5. That also brings the other issue - weak drafting - but that's a whole different conversation lol

You gotta hope if they make one or two seller moves this year then they sort of fix the gap in ‘09 picks. Maybe they could make it one seller year (this year) and keep Battaglia next year and try to be half decent.

With so many Eastern Conference teams trying to do something this year, we may see more weak teams next year anyway. Might not be hard to look good when you aren’t! LOL.

 

[beastintheeast]

Consider that out of the supposed top 6 in the league only 2 of them have made any moves. SO FAR

There is a lot of time and a lot of phone calls. Everyone is trying to get either the best deal for their players or the best player for the cheapest.

Kingston Theoreticall has
Pinelli
Foster
Dever
Stonehouse
mayich
Mews

Kington has

Burns
Midema avail,

Both GM's know what they hve and what they want.

Rumour had the 67 making a deal for Vaughn. That did not happen.

Consider the Gens, Rangers


The Rangers want a Pinelli but realize that while miracles happen, London is going to be very hard to beat. Therefore, they do not want to trade the farm for a player.

There will be trades and we can decide if they are good. Saying this should be or that should be or screaming about how bad your GM is before the deadline and knowing what is happening seems foolish.

Fish hater, if you do not like what it said, then


DON'T GO AWAY MAD

JUST GO AWAY