KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Jussi]

Eh? In a joint-stock company the shareholders call the shots, and if a singular shareholder controls all or most shares then that gives effective control over the company.

That's not how it works in Liiga clubs.

Yhteystiedot

Mikael Lehtinen doesn't have a place on the board. And yes I know he's currently the acting CEO for both the Liiga club and junior organization but if Ässät were run like proper organization, he would stick to the junior organization. But the Ässät clusterf*** is heavily off topic so I won't continue on that.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Many of the top hockey clubs in Europe invested in the CHL when it was started so they'e going to see it all the way through.

Ya, I get the impression the people running/backing the CHL are pretty committed to trying to make it work. If they can eventually figure it all out they could end up with something relatively lucrative.

At least the sport has tv contracts in those countries, same can't be said of hockey.

Yes, hockey clubs will just have to make do with their significantly more valuable TV contracts, regardless of the size of the country those deals are coming from.

Anyway, this is off topic so I'm dropping it.

Nope.

Kind of figured that. Perhaps vorky just has a different definition for the word "boycott".

 

[vorky]

The rink in Vienna is bog standard, but they have a new arena in planning stages that will be north of 15000 for hockey. Site selection completed, I believe the architect has been selected.

Thank you for the info. Can you give me a source for that new arena information?

EDIT:
I found something here. Great news with the new arena, Vienna is a very important city.

 

[remben]

I will be speculating but I think we will see a German team in the KHL around 2021-2022 or 2022-2023 and that team will not be in Berlin nor in Hamburg and will not be a newly created team, I think the team will be Red Bull Munchen, their new arena (SAP) will be finished by the summer 2021 if I am not wrong, and I don't think that the financial chapter is a big issue for Red Bull GmbH (the owner of the team). I also base my speculation on the fact that the DEL will soon be too small for them as the BBL is too small for Bayern Munchen Basketball team (they have now wild card for Euroleague), as well the football bundesliga is too small for FC Bayern Munchen and they have always been linked to some kind of European Super League in football, so it will not be really surprising to see the hockey team of the city joining a closed league. Moreover Lowen Frankfurt applied to play in the DEL next season, so I think they will sooner or later join the league and I think they could replace well RB Munchen in the future.

 

[vorky]

I will be speculating but I think we will see a German team in the KHL around 2021-2022 or 2022-2023 and that team will not be in Berlin nor in Hamburg and will not be a newly created team, I think the team will be Red Bull Munchen, their new arena (SAP) will be finished by the summer 2021 if I am not wrong, and I don't think that the financial chapter is a big issue for Red Bull GmbH (the owner of the team). I also base my speculation on the fact that the DEL will soon be too small for them as the BBL is too small for Bayern Munchen Basketball team (they have now wild card for Euroleague), as well the football bundesliga is too small for FC Bayern Munchen and they have always been linked to some kind of European Super League in football, so it will not be really surprising to see the hockey team of the city joining a closed league. Moreover Lowen Frankfurt applied to play in the DEL next season, so I think they will sooner or later join the league and I think they could replace well RB Munchen in the future.

Very good analysis, I agree with your reasons.

You are very right that national hockey leagues are too small for some teams. There is simply no growing potential anymore. Hence, the CHL was created. Still, the CHL is not that league, which European big market clubs need.

We have always heard how the European clubs are interested in the business side if considering the KHL. The SAP deal is a clear signal for them. Business on the 1st place.

The model of a closed league within Europe, which has been offered by the KHL recently, is very attractive for clubs like Red Bull Munich or other big clubs. They would travel only within Europe, perhaps one or two trips to Moscow, St.Petersburg or Kazan/Ufa.

Let's speculate. If the KHL did a division of 5-6 German/Swiss clubs, Paris, Slovan-Prague-Vienna, Jokerit-Riga, it would be enough.

The biggest DEL´s problem is a disparity when you have great teams with great venues (Berlin, Cologne, Mannheim, upcoming Munich) followed by teams with very inferior infrastructure. So, top German clubs lead the European attendance figures, but the overall DEL attendance is not so impressive. Even though, it is still 3rd in Europe. Big market clubs need stability, so a closed international league.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I will be speculating but I think we will see a German team in the KHL around 2021-2022 or 2022-2023 and that team will not be in Berlin nor in Hamburg and will not be a newly created team, I think the team will be Red Bull Munchen, their new arena (SAP) will be finished by the summer 2021 if I am not wrong, and I don't think that the financial chapter is a big issue for Red Bull GmbH (the owner of the team). I also base my speculation on the fact that the DEL will soon be too small for them as the BBL is too small for Bayern Munchen Basketball team (they have now wild card for Euroleague), as well the football bundesliga is too small for FC Bayern Munchen and they have always been linked to some kind of European Super League in football, so it will not be really surprising to see the hockey team of the city joining a closed league. Moreover Lowen Frankfurt applied to play in the DEL next season, so I think they will sooner or later join the league and I think they could replace well RB Munchen in the future.

Not happening. Red Bull and owner Mateschitz have long been proponents of EC Red Bull Salzburg and EHC Red Bull München playing in the EBEL and DEL respectively. They're in support of growing both leagues, and both have certainly been on the rise. DEL has the second highest average support in Europe, behind only the Swiss NLA and ahead of the KHL itself. EBEL lags behind but they are also strengthening.

They've both been "linked" to the KHL for many years. If it was going to happen, then it either 1.) would've happened by now or 2.) when Red Bull decided to get involved in hockey, they would've bought a KHL franchise instead. In addition, Red Bull sees their sports as a business, look at the finances of their sports like extreme racing and soccer (F1 is the lone exception). They wouldn't invest in a team that would have a guaranteed loss of at least eight figures annually. Jokerit's current situation, where they're the third most valuable team and still losing more than 10 million every season, will only reinforce the decision of Mateschitz and other European owners not to join the KHL. Ownership of nearly every team except for CKA and CSKA is seen as a social donation rather than running a business.

As for the new arena, the future capacity will be 11,500. If they sell out, which will be difficult considering it's nearly three times their current attendance, then their attendance will be a few hundred less than DEL leaders Eisbären Berlin, and sandwiched in between Kölner Haie and Adler Mannheim. This supports the notion that Red Bull support the growth of the DEL rather than the thought that they are preparing, or should prepare, to join the KHL.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson
I told you it once, and I will repeat, man, your facts are wrong.

We may disagree on many topics, but you should always do the research on facts. Otherwise, the rest of your posts is not trustworthy.

 

[Jussi]

When you claim someone's facts are wrong, you're supposed to provide the correct ones. That's how discussion goes on message boards and this site. For example the arena capacity is correct: https://www.schulitz.de/sap-arena-muenchen-eishalle-fuer-redbull-muenchen/

 

[remben]

Not happening. Red Bull and owner Mateschitz have long been proponents of EC Red Bull Salzburg and EHC Red Bull München playing in the EBEL and DEL respectively. They're in support of growing both leagues, and both have certainly been on the rise. DEL has the second highest average support in Europe, behind only the Swiss NLA and ahead of the KHL itself. EBEL lags behind but they are also strengthening.

They've both been "linked" to the KHL for many years. If it was going to happen, then it either 1.) would've happened by now or 2.) when Red Bull decided to get involved in hockey, they would've bought a KHL franchise instead. In addition, Red Bull sees their sports as a business, look at the finances of their sports like extreme racing and soccer (F1 is the lone exception). They wouldn't invest in a team that would have a guaranteed loss of at least eight figures annually. Jokerit's current situation, where they're the third most valuable team and still losing more than 10 million every season, will only reinforce the decision of Mateschitz and other European owners not to join the KHL. Ownership of nearly every team except for CKA and CSKA is seen as a social donation rather than running a business.

As for the new arena, the future capacity will be 11,500. If they sell out, which will be difficult considering it's nearly three times their current attendance, then their attendance will be a few hundred less than DEL leaders Eisbären Berlin, and sandwiched in between Kölner Haie and Adler Mannheim. This supports the notion that Red Bull support the growth of the DEL rather than the thought that they are preparing, or should prepare, to join the KHL.

Well it is pure speculation as I said, moreover I have never been really following the DEL until now, as I relocated to German last year I started to watch the games, I used to follow only the NHL and KHL. But I will confirm what Vorky said regarding expansion, only about France because I am french and I read several articles on the topic, France hockey federation is clearly interested to have a team joining the KHL but only if it is financially possible, I am not saying it will happen or not but there are serious talks, and a french company Engie is/was in discussion to take part in Slovan Bratislava.

 

[Albatros]

The biggest DEL´s problem is a disparity when you have great teams with great venues (Berlin, Cologne, Mannheim, upcoming Munich) followed by teams with very inferior infrastructure. So, top German clubs lead the European attendance figures, but the overall DEL attendance is not so impressive. Even though, it is still 3rd in Europe. Big market clubs need stability, so a closed international league.

I wouldn't say that's much of a problem at all actually, rather a feature of the fan culture that expects good atmosphere, beer, and bratwurst rather than a shiny new arena.

 

[vorky]

I wouldn't say that's much of a problem at all actually, rather a feature of the fan culture that expects good atmosphere, beer, and bratwurst rather than a shiny new arena.

I have a different opinion. If a league wants to develop, it needs modern big venues. Of course, you cannot have 10k arena in small cities, it is ok. But, it hinders development.

I mentioned it as the DEL´s problem because the DEL has a potential for higher average attendance. But certain clubs talking the average attendance lower. Btw, the KHL has the same problem, but the KHL has been developing their venues step by step. The SAP Arena in Munich is the right move, other clubs should follow them.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Well it is pure speculation as I said, moreover I have never been really following the DEL until now, as I relocated to German last year I started to watch the games, I used to follow only the NHL and KHL. But I will confirm what Vorky said regarding expansion, only about France because I am french and I read several articles on the topic, France hockey federation is clearly interested to have a team joining the KHL but only if it is financially possible, I am not saying it will happen or not but there are serious talks, and a french company Engie is/was in discussion to take part in Slovan Bratislava.

Understood. I can’t confirm if there will be a KHL team Central or Western Europe, but I do know that the common theme has been potential owners are put off by the fact KHL finances don’t work. Teams lose upwards of tens of millions money hand over fist every year, and KHL owners accept this as it’s seen as a social donation rather than business. This puts off potential owners, obviously. It’s the reason why there’s constantly European interest in the KHL, but it's different ownership groups since the interest dies down immediately after group look at the finances.

@Barclay Donaldson
I told you it once, and I will repeat, man, your facts are wrong.

We may disagree on many topics, but you should always do the research on facts. Otherwise, the rest of your posts is not trustworthy.

Hahaha thanks Jussi. He’s had some issues with that. Vorky, I have been correct both times. Arena capacity is correct, it’s 11,500. Jussi kindly provided a link that proves this, I’ll give you another one. 3XN designs ice hockey and basketball arena in Munich's Olympic park

In addition, the average attendances is also correct. Here’s a link with them for the 2018-19 season. Euro Attendance | Euro Hockey Clubs

I do my research before I put something on here. You don’t have to apologize, but a quick search proves I’m right. Next time, search on the internet real quick rather than just saying I’m wrong. Heck, I found it and I’m a kid, you’re probably an adult and can find it easier than me. Especially if you’re such a self-proclaimed expert. Also, please hit reply instead of @-ing me, it doesn’t send a notification if you do that.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson
Your facts are wrong.

I recommend you to use correct data if you present them as facts.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I have a different opinion. If a league wants to develop, it needs modern big venues. Of course, you cannot have 10k arena in small cities, it is ok. But, it hinders development.

I mentioned it as the DEL´s problem because the DEL has a potential for higher average attendance. But certain clubs talking the average attendance lower. Btw, the KHL has the same problem, but the KHL has been developing their venues step by step. The SAP Arena in Munich is the right move, other clubs should follow them.

There’s also financial benefits to small stadiums. Higher capacity stadiums aren’t always filled. If the demand for tickets is higher than the limited supply of seats, then ticket price go up. It’s also cheaper to maintain than a 15,000 seat arena. Upkeep and overhead costs are also cheaper. And this isn’t the KHL, and DEL teams actively try to make a profit. There’s side benefits such as an improved atmosphere, but the stadium status quo makes sense financially.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson
Your facts are wrong.

I recommend you to use correct data if you present them as facts.

Specifically which facts do you think are wrong? Jussi pointed out one instance where you’ve incorrectly said I’m using wrong facts, which other ones do you think exist?

 

[Jussi]

If a league wants to develop, it needs modern big venues.

If there's no money, then you're stuck with what you have. A lot of arenas around Europe are built by cities, sometimes still owned by them and clubs are only renting it. It takes more effort from the cities to either renovate, rebuild or upgrade arenas and private money. That's the case with with several Finnish league arenas. The cities aren't that big to begin with, arenas are old and sometimes not upgradeble due to the way their were built (current Hippos for example). The three major arena projects in Finland are in Tampere, Helsinki and Turku are combination of the city, private money and club(s). The Turku one is more a private effort, spearheaded by the Supercell guys.

 

[Jussi]

Specifically which facts do you think are wrong? Jussi pointed out one instance where you’ve incorrectly said I’m using wrong facts, which other ones do you think exist?

Based on past experiences, you'll either get no intelligent reply or links to Russian sites which Google translates to gibberish or even refuses to open. I also wouldn't put it past him to confuse opinion and facts.

 

[Jussi]

There’s also financial benefits to small stadiums. Higher capacity stadiums aren’t always filled. If the demand for tickets is higher than the limited supply of seats, then ticket price go up. It’s also cheaper to maintain than a 15,000 seat arena. Upkeep and overhead costs are also cheaper. And this isn’t the KHL, and DEL teams actively try to make a profit. There’s side benefits such as an improved atmosphere, but the stadium status quo makes sense financially.

When they built new arenas in Sweden some years ago, they did them the right way. Just the right size for the area, attendances depending on team's success close to full or around 90% if not sold-out.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Based on past experiences, you'll either get no intelligent reply or links to Russian sites which Google translates to gibberish or even refuses to open. I also wouldn't put it past him to confuse opinion and facts.

HFBoards does attract all types of people, I guess hahaha. I have no issues with a language barrier, I do have issue with someone constantly telling me that my facts are despite me providing evidence. And then he just never says what he thinks is wrong, he just says it’s all wrong.

 

[Jussi]

HFBoards does attract all types of people, I guess hahaha. I have no issues with a language barrier, I do have issue with someone constantly telling me that my facts are despite me providing evidence. And then he just never says what he thinks is wrong, he just says it’s all wrong.

Belittling or attacking the poster instead of providing facts has been his MO for ages.

 

[Albatros]

I have a different opinion. If a league wants to develop, it needs modern big venues. Of course, you cannot have 10k arena in small cities, it is ok. But, it hinders development.

You can look at the examples of large cities with modern arenas like Hamburg or Hannover, it just didn't work. Even the Indians playing third league hockey in an old barn is a bigger success, ultimately because they give people what they want.

 

[Exarz]

When they built new arenas in Sweden some years ago, they did them the right way. Just the right size for the area, attendances depending on team's success close to full or around 90% if not sold-out.

Then we have the case with Karlskrona – who were forced to expand their arena when they were promoted to the SHL although they didn't have a big enough market/attendance to fill the arena with the SHL's requirements. Now they're relegated and played in Allsvenskan this season, and are basically in big economic crisis due to the arena expansion*

*The city owns the arena but playing in a half empty arena instead of an almost full has damaged their marketing and attendance as well the the arena rent skyrocketing due to the construction costs.

 

[vorky]

Specifically which facts do you think are wrong? Jussi pointed out one instance where you’ve incorrectly said I’m using wrong facts, which other ones do you think exist?

I replied to you in another post what is wrong with your facts.

But fine, you can use wrong facts if you wish. Just do not be surprised when I point it out.

Discussion with a guy manipulating the facts is not a good starter for me.

 

[vorky]

You can look at the examples of large cities with modern arenas like Hamburg or Hannover, it just didn't work. Even the Indians playing third league hockey in an old barn is a bigger success, ultimately because they give people what they want.

I did not speak about "third league hockey"

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I replied to you in another post what is wrong with your facts.

But fine, you can use wrong facts if you wish. Just do not be surprised when I point it out.

Discussion with a guy manipulating the facts is not a good starter for me.

Well that was a somewhat comprehensive response, I’m impressed. Tell me exactly from this one post what you think is wrong. All you’ve said is “wrong facts,” and we’ve supplied evidence for what I’ve said. Point out exactly what you think is wrong, or do it and provide evidence to the contrary.

Reading back in this thread and others, it would seem you just say “wrong” a lot and not much else after. Be specific, exactly what facts are wrong, and if you’re really that much of an expert then you can easily find evidence to the contrary. I get there is a culture barrier, but that’s a pretty universal theme.