Kevyn Adams GM thread

[My Cozen Dylan]

I expect all UFAs to walk, except maybe Robinson because he'll stay cheap. I expect he and the RFAs to re-sign for around this -

Mitts - 6.5 mil
Krebs - 1.2
Robinson - 1.8
Jokiharju - 3.0
UPL - 3 mil (more of a guess than the others)

Why in the world would we give Robinson anything more than league minimum?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Why in the world would we give Robinson anything more than league minimum?

He's already making 1.6 mil. If he wants to stay I think KA will keep him. If there ends up being a better option from outside the team, believe me I'm all for it.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

He's already making 1.6 mil. If he wants to stay I think KA will keep him. If there ends up being a better option from outside the team, believe me I'm all for it.

He's a 13th forward who got overpaid on his last contract. This is how we keep wasting money.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

He's a 13th forward who got overpaid on his last contract. This is how we keep wasting money.

Well I'm not going to say Robinson is worth 1.6 or 1.8 mil, but when shopping for UFA vets for the bottom-six, you're not going to save hardly anything below that AAV. At least it's better than spending 5 mil on Girgs and Okposo.

 

[Irie]

You assert my post is false. Then proceeded to prove that it isn’t with the rest of your post.

I didn’t say the bolded part of your post. That’s you trying to expand the point I made beyond what it was. But the funny thing is, you prove with the underlined, that even your expanded version is doable.

You just don’t like what the outcome might be and that its a bad idea. Or least what you think the outcome might be.

I never said it was impossible, but I am disagreeing with your assertion that there is no risk of losing good young players as cap casualties.

If you have to come up with 5 more sub 1 million dollar contracts to keep the team together, and then saying there is no cap risk is false in my eyes.

Bottom line, if Adams adds an upgrade, someone on a larger contract has to go out if he wants to sign the next batch of RFAs.

Proving that they don't have to lose anyone *if* they add 5 more ELCs to an already ridiculously young roster is not a real solution for any team that wants to compete for a playoff spot.

 

[joshjull]

The problem is that building a winner was not the primary ability that Terry Pegula was looking for when replacing Botterill as the GM.

He wanted a GM that would work with him, take the team in the direction he wanted (efficient & economical), and allow him to be a part of the decision making process.

Adams fired the people Pegula wanted fired and has included Terry in the decision making process from all reports.

I doubt there are qualified GM candidates out there that will fit what Pegula wants more than Adams.

He certainly wanted someone he knew and trusted after how the previous two GM situations played out.

The “efficient and economical“ quote(summer of 2020) was about off ice stuff, not on ice. It was also in reference to things like to cuts to PSE , not just the Sabres front office. They probably should have shit canned PSE at the time. I think they finally did last year.

Some posters want to believe the “efficient/economical” stuff was about being cheap with the roster. Yet they spent to the upper limit the very first season after those comments were made. Effectively adding an additional 15-20mil to their potential losses. Since that season had almost no revenue.

“Pegula wants to be involved in the decision making process” gets overplayed. Its used to imply he’s influencing day to day hockey decisions. I‘ve seen little evidence to support this. What I have seen is a super fan owner who likes to be in the loop or in the know, a fly on the wall if you will. One of his complaints with Botts was that he keep Pegula out of the loop.

The whole Pegula meddling thing is always been silly to me. He’s rarely involved, and when he has been, it’s been clumsy, obvious and blows up in his face. The examples being the impulsive hiring of Lafontaine. Or the flat management structure he set up with Krueger‘s guidance in the 2020 offseason.

 

[Jim Bob]

He certainly wanted someone he knew and trusted after how the previous two GM situations played out.

The “efficient and economical“ quote(summer of 2020) was about off ice stuff, not on ice. It was also in reference to things like to cuts to PSE , not just the Sabres front office. They probably should have shit canned PSE at the time. I think they finally did last year.

Some posters want to believe the “efficient/economical” stuff was about being cheap with the roster. Yet they spent to the upper limit the very first season after those comments were made. Effectively adding an additional 15-20mil to their potential losses. Since that season had almost no revenue.

“Pegula wants to be involved in the decision making process” gets overplayed. Its used to imply he’s influencing day to day hockey decisions. I‘ve seen little evidence to support this. What I have seen is a super fan owner who likes to be in the loop or in the know, a fly on the wall if you will. One of his complaints with Botts was that he keep Pegula out of the loop.

The whole Pegual meddling thing is always been silly to me. He’s rarely involved, and when he has, it’s been clumsy, obvious and blows up in his face. The examples being the impulsive hiring of Lafontaine. Or the flat management structure he set up with Krueger‘s guidance in the 2020 offseason.

Adams recently said he’s been sitting in on most amateur scouting meetings. That is a huge red flag to me. Especially with how bad the team has been for over a decade under his ownership.

Plus, having the smallest pro scouting staff in the league can’t help the on ice product. But, it can save a couple of bucks.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

Adams recently said he’s been sitting in on most amateur scouting meetings. That is a huge red flag to me. Especially with how bad the team has been for over a decade under his ownership.

Plus, having the smallest pro scouting staff in the league can’t help the on ice product. But, it can save a couple of bucks.

I don't see a problem with Terry sitting in on meetings. Isn't he doing that with the Bills also? The amateur scouting and drafting has been one of the few highlights of the organisation even if we'd like a few more bangers in the pipeline

 

[Pondslider]

It was reported recently that they only have one pro scout. Which probably helps explain why trades are so hard and mostly guys that Granato coached as a development coach.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't see a problem with Terry sitting in on meetings. Isn't he doing that with the Bills also? The amateur scouting and drafting has been one of the few highlights of the organisation even if we'd like a few more bangers in the pipeline

I'm all for calling out a meddling owner but sitting in on meetings and being in the loop is not evidence. There's got to be some influence on personnel decisions and I have never heard of that about Pegula. I don't deny it could be there, at least via cap restrictions, but it's never been stated or shown.

 

[Beerz]

Well we know the Sabres have more than 1 Person scouting pro games because I have seen reports of 2 scouts being in attendance at other games and multiple scouts being in attendance at different games on the same night.

 

[joshjull]

I never said it was impossible, but I am disagreeing with your assertion that there is no risk of losing good young players as cap casualties.

If you have to come up with 5 more sub 1 million dollar contracts to keep the team together, and then saying there is no cap risk is false in my eyes.

Bottom line, if Adams adds an upgrade, someone on a larger contract has to go out if he wants to sign the next batch of RFAs.

Proving that they don't have to lose anyone *if* they add 5 more ELCs to an already ridiculously young roster is not a real solution for any team that wants to compete for a playoff spot.

You’re disagreeing with something I didn’t post. That’s been a theme in both of your responses to me.

The poster I quoted was talking about the Power/Cozens deals being problems that would make it hard to sign Mitts, UPL, Peterka, Quinn and Levi. Thats the context of that part of my post you cherrypicked….

“2) We are not in any danger of having to move on from any Mitts, UPL, Peterka, Quinn or Levi due to those deals or the cap.”

We’re not. Adams has a few ways to ensure those 5 guys get signed. If you disagree and think thats false, fine. Then make your case without making things up to attribute to me.


-I didn’t say anything about bringing in a player from outside. It would change the dynamic and be a different discussion.
-I didn’t say anything about signing ALL our RFAs. Just the 5 mentioned.
-I didn’t say anything about not losing anyone, young or otherwise.

Yet you keep telling me I’m wrong to assert these things.

It looks like you cherrypicked part of my post and made a bunch of assumptions. Then responded to what you assumed I was saying instead of what I actually said. Which is extremely annoying on my end, since you’re basing me saying something false on things I didn’t say.

 

[Tatanka]

I'm all for calling out a meddling owner but sitting in on meetings and being in the loop is not evidence. There's got to be some influence on personnel decisions and I have never heard of that about Pegula. I don't deny it could be there, at least via cap restrictions, but it's never been stated or shown.

Sitting in on amateur scouting meetings is the equivalent of sitting in on a level technology at most companies. What printer ir laptops should we get? What is troublesome is that amateur scouting or rather the focus on team buildimg almost exclusively via the draft seems to be top of book. It doesn't work. Never has. The draft capital available and prospects should be part of an analysis to determine how to make the pro roster better including moving players under contract. You are not going to escape the bottom simply by plugging in more ELCs. But you will save money and not have to spend to the cap to ice a roster. Nor do you have to worry about fan complaints about the experience when a paltrey number actually attend. Seems the priorities are skewed.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Sitting in on amateur scouting meetings is the equivalent of sitting in on a level technology at most companies. What printer ir laptops should we get? What is troublesome is that amateur scouting or rather the focus on team buildimg almost exclusively via the draft seems to be top of book. It doesn't work. Never has. The draft capital available and prospects should be part of an analysis to determine how to make the pro roster better including moving players under contract. You are not going to escape the bottom simply by plugging in more ELCs. But you will save money and not have to spend to the cap to ice a roster. Nor do you have to worry about fan complaints about the experience when a paltrey number actually attend. Seems the priorities are skewed.

You're talking about something different - the direction the owner wants to go with the franchise, and I agree with your concerns. That's not the same as being a meddling owner that interferes with lower level decision making. If the scouts are saying "we love this guy" and Pegula comes around saying "no I like this other guy even though I don't know crap" then we have a meddling owner.

I wish the Sabes went with a draft first team-building approach in 2015, but even I know there comes a time when the best of the young group you've put together needs trades to fill roster holes. Now is that time, and if Pegula is sitting in scouting meetings because all he wants is the next best draft pick then the direction is a failure. Meddling won't be part of that equation though. Maybe you think this is semantics but I don't.

 

[Pondslider]

Well we know the Sabres have more than 1 Person scouting pro games because I have seen reports of 2 scouts being in attendance at other games and multiple scouts being in attendance at different games on the same night.

This was from December when Jost was waived:

Granato recently lauded the Sabres’ director of pro scouting, Jeremiah Crowe, for identifying Robinson as a competitive, checking-line winger, but the team isn’t surrounding Crowe with a robust staff to help him identify talent.
The Sabres recently hired longtime NCAA assistant coach Brad Dexter as a pro scout, though he hasn’t been involved in pro hockey in 22 years. Otherwise, Adams relies on Crowe, Granato, Amerks coach Seth Appert, associate general manager Jason Karmanos and the analytics staff to scout possible free-agent, trade and waiver acquisitions.

Sabres' decision to waive Tyson Jost raises more questions about roster-building strategy

Tyson Jost was placed on waivers following practice at LECOM Harborcenter to allow the Sabres to activate Zemgus Girgensons from injured reserve.

buffalonews.com

I believe it’s been reported recently that Karmanos has been going on scouting trips for the deadline mostly in Boston.

 

[Tatanka]

You're talking about something different - the direction the owner wants to go with the franchise, and I agree with your concerns. That's not the same as being a meddling owner that interferes with lower level decision making. If the scouts are saying "we love this guy" and Pegula comes around saying "no I like this other guy even though I don't know crap" then we have a meddling owner.

I wish the Sabes went with a draft first team-building approach in 2015, but even I know there comes a time when the best of the young group you've put together needs trades to fill roster holes. Now is that time, and if Pegula is sitting in scouting meetings because all he wants is the next best draft pick then the direction is a failure. Meddling won't be part of that equation though. Maybe you think this is semantics but I don't.

I do not think I said meddling owner anywhere. What I did say was the top guy wanting to be involved in a meeting that should be low down the list of current priorities. I concur that we are the limit of what can be gained from restocking the cupboards. But I think it is informative, if true, that there is an emphasis on the amateur talent review in the organization at this time.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I do not think I said meddling owner anywhere. What I did say was the top guy wanting to be involved in a meeting that should be low down the list of current priorities. I concur that we are the limit of what can be gained from restocking the cupboards. But I think it is informative, if true, that there is an emphasis on the amateur talent review in the organization at this time.

You responded to my post about "meddling" so I thought that was the point you were trying to make. So if not them my mistake.

I still don't know what we should take away from Pegula being in scouting meetings. What other meetings is he sitting in on? Maybe several, so one meeting might not indicate a priority over another, or even signal what you are interpreting it as. It's smoke...faint smoke.

 

[Tatanka]

You responded to my post about "meddling" so I thought that was the point you were trying to make. So if not them my mistake.

I still don't know what we should take away from Pegula being in scouting meetings. What other meetings is he sitting in on? Maybe several, so one meeting might not indicate a priority over another, or even signal what you are interpreting it as. It's smoke...faint smoke.

Don’t know what to make of it either. I would suspect he would be in a meeting if there was a major trade, a coaching hire, renovations. But sitting in on scouting when he can’t possibly add anything of value suggests that that is a priority of management. I think there was a comment of TP taking notes during prospects camp/scrimmage. Again to what end? If I was to hazard an observation it is that there is no pressure to deviate from the don’t block the specs approach.

 

[Irie]

You’re disagreeing with something I didn’t post. That’s been a theme in both of your responses to me.

The poster I quoted was talking about the Power/Cozens deals being problems that would make it hard to sign Mitts, UPL, Peterka, Quinn and Levi. Thats the context of that part of my post you cherrypicked….

“2) We are not in any danger of having to move on from any Mitts, UPL, Peterka, Quinn or Levi due to those deals or the cap.”

We’re not. Adams has a few ways to ensure those 5 guys get signed. If you disagree and think thats false, fine. Then make your case without making things up to attribute to me.


-I didn’t say anything about bringing in a player from outside. It would change the dynamic and be a different discussion.
-I didn’t say anything about signing ALL our RFAs. Just the 5 mentioned.
-I didn’t say anything about not losing anyone, young or otherwise.

Yet you keep telling me I’m wrong to assert these things.

It looks like you cherrypicked part of my post and made a bunch of assumptions. Then responded to what you assumed I was saying instead of what I actually said. Which is extremely annoying on my end, since you’re basing me saying something false on things I didn’t say.

Sounds like you are telling me that your statement is true and there is no cap issues going forward because Adams doesn't have to improve the roster or try to ice a competitive team.

Because if he does either of those two things, your statement is false imo.

Here is exactly what you said:

2) We are not in any danger of having to move on from any Mitts, UPL, Peterka, Quinn or Levi due to those deals or the cap.

Facts are that once Mitts and UPL are signed, there will be very little money moving forward to fill all of the spots of Girgensons. Johnson, Okposo, Olofsson, Robinson, Krebs and Jokiharju.

And the following season, it is going to be incredibly difficult to resign R Johnson, Peterka, Levi, and Quinn on top of the 7 i previously listed who's spots will need filling in 2025 as well.

Those are facts. You seem to be going into "super pedantic mode" to spin the statement as something it is not within the big picture of this hockey club.

You say I am cherrypicking, but I quoted your entire #2 point. It is not out of context of anything in your original post. It is an assertion that stands alone, and I responded to it. This team has cap issues, and Cozens and Power's deals are a big part of the reason why.

I get that your argument is "there are ways to avoid the cap issues". Sure, Adams can run with 20 players all year. Or he can fill half his team with ELCs. Neither of which are realistic options for a team looking to compete. So saying there is no danger, but relying on unrealistic scenarios to get to that conclusion is just bad faith.

If I am somehow misunderstanding what you are implying, I apologize, and maybe you can break down your solution to the cap situation with the actual numbers with both UPL and Mitts signed for 2024 under an 87.5M cap, and then give a quick breakdown for 2025 of how this team then fits Quinn, Peterka, Levi, and Johnson also into the mix and what that roster looks like, because I keep crunching the numbers, and there is a huge danger of losing some good young talent in my results.

 

[joshjull]

If you have to come up with 5 more sub 1 million dollar contracts to keep the team together, and then saying there is no cap risk is false in my eyes.

Bottom line, if Adams adds an upgrade, someone on a larger contract has to go out if he wants to sign the next batch of RFAs.

Proving that they don't have to lose anyone *if* they add 5 more ELCs to an already ridiculously young roster is not a real solution for any team that wants to compete for a playoff spot.

I think this is false.

If this team re-signs Mitts and UPL and brings in even one more upgrade from outside, something will have to give next off-season. It is doubtful they can afford all of their RFA's unless they plan on running with five or six more ELCs/bargain -bin-UFAs on the roster on top of their already ridiculously young roster, which makes being competitive really difficult.

I wanted to address this separately.

Using bargain basement vets and ELCs with 1mil or less cap hits is a tool used by every team near the upper limit to stay compliant. The tighter the team’s cap situation, the more of these contracts they‘ll have. As examples, Tampa and Colorado each have about 10 or so of them.


If we end up adding more 1mil or less deals. We will be doing what every team in the NHL does in that situation. If we are struggling it’s not going to be due to these types of contracts. It will be due to the play of the guys getting the bigger contracts. Not unlike this season.

 

[Irie]

I wanted to address this separately.

Using bargain basement vets and ELCs with 1mil or less cap hits is a tool used by every team near the upper limit to stay compliant. The tighter the team’s cap situation, the more of these contracts they‘ll have. As examples, Tampa and Colorado each have about 10 of these.


If we end up adding more 1mil or less deals. We will be doing what every team in the NHL does in that situation. If we are struggling it’s not going to be due to these types of contracts. It will be due to the play of the guys getting the bigger contracts. Not unlike this season.

Fair enough, but I think this assessment misses the mark in two places.

First, Buffalo is not Tampa Bay or Colorado. They are not going to be able to attract serviceable vets to sign for sub 1 million dollar deals the way other teams can. Watson, Cogliano, Motte, Johnson.... Those guys are going to require overpays to come to buffalo, (see Erik Johnson for reference).

Second, Tampa, Colorado, Pittsburgh.... These teams have super stars that can do the heavy lifting and win games for their teams, both at even strength and on the PP. Sabres have some good young talent, but their guys are not on the same level as the MacKinnons, Rantanens, Points, Crosbys or Kucherovs.

Buffalo has to compete with a more balanced lineup. If Adams is going to make this team competitive, it is going to require him to likely have 4 solid lines and three decent D pairings. Having a bunch of ELCs and borderline AHL fodder sprinkled through the lineup will solve the cap issues going forward, but they will not compete for a playoff spot, imo.

 

[joshjull]

Fair enough, but I think this assessment misses the mark in two places.

First, Buffalo is not Tampa Bay or Colorado. They are not going to be able to attract serviceable vets to sign for sub 1 million dollar deals the way other teams can. Watson, Cogliano, Motte, Johnson.... Those guys are going to require overpays to come to buffalo, (see Erik Johnson for reference).

Second, Tampa, Colorado, Pittsburgh.... These teams have super stars that can do the heavy lifting and win games for their teams, both at even strength and on the PP. Sabres have some good young talent, but their guys are not on the same level as the MacKinnons, Rantanens, Points, Crosbys or Kucherovs.

Buffalo has to compete with a more balanced lineup. If Adams is going to make this team competitive, it is going to require him to likely have 4 solid lines and three decent D pairings. Having a bunch of ELCs and borderline AHL fodder sprinkled through the lineup will solve the cap issues going forward, but they will not compete for a playoff spot, imo.

I agree it will be hard to get those vets. But the math is the math. We will have a lot of guys with 1mil or less deals to stay cap compliant when we’re at the upper limit. Just like those teams.

 

[TehDoak]

Why in the world would we give Robinson anything more than league minimum?

We gave Zemgus a 3 year, 2M+ per when everyone else of his ilk was taking league minimum. And then overpaid both him and Okposo again last summer. And Jost.

 

[toddkaz]

Well Done Kevyn and Meatball

 

[OkimLom]

He's a 13th forward who got overpaid on his last contract. This is how we keep wasting money.

We keep wasting money because of the players we target to fill holes on the team. It's not because of WHAT we are paying guys.