Confirmed with Link: Kevin Hayes (50% Retained) Traded To St. Louis For 2024 6th Round Pick

[Redpath]

I would definitely not agree that Ian Mitchell & Alec Regula are equivalent to a 2024 6th round pick.

Fair, but I'd also say Hall is a better contract and player than Hayes. So maybe he did return more value there, but still minimal and still proof at the lack of value for trading big contracts, regardless of coach hatred.

It did, because the Flyers were forced to move him this summer instead of waiting out the final years of his contract while they rebuild, which they could have easily done if not for Torts. With only a year left, Hayes would have been an easier asset to trade for value.

Johansen was moved because Nashville have plans to use their cap space to be competitive right away. The Flyers don't need that $3.57m in cap space now.

And that is why I would agree that Torts should not have pushed Hayes out the door.

But right now, trading Hayes in June 2023, Torts did not kill the value of what Hayes-types are returning in June 2023.

 

[deadhead]

Hayes was a bad fit at center for the Flyers, not just the $7M which would make it harder for Briere to take money back in other deals, but the only way to sustain his value would be to play him in the top 6, and that would take PT from younger forwards who should be playing. We're rebuilding, right?

So whether they got a 4th or 6th, BFD. They moved him out, freed a slot for a young forward (and Atkinson) next season.
His valued plummeted b/c the league no longer values scoring alone, they want speed and the ability to drive and control play.
We've seen this with a lot of 30+ veteran scorers the last couple years.

Move on. Nothing to see here.

 

[Magua]

Boston wanted to clear an entire $6MM cap hit (for 2 years) because they have plans to compete and need money now. They did clear it. Hall also has a 10 team NTC, and there's probably some overlap with those being the lower spending teams.

Johansen was used as a 4th line forward for the majority of the season. He scored like a low end 3rd liner at 5v5 -- and he's done that 3 of the last 4 years.

Hayes is making $3.5MM with retention. He tied a career high in points. He was an All-Star. If you think all 3 are the exact same, then you either did a poor sell job, timed it poorly, or made a move out of desperation. Or all of the above.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Big deal.

 

[deadhead]

Boston wanted to clear an entire $6MM cap hit (for 2 years) because they have plans to compete and need money now. They did clear it. Hall also has a 10 team NTC, and there's probably some overlap with those being the lower spending teams.

Johansen was used as a 4th line forward for the majority of the season. He scored like a low end 3rd liner at 5v5 -- and he's done that 3 of the last 4 years.

Hayes is making $3.5MM with retention. He tied a career high in points. He was an All-Star. If you think all 3 are the exact same, then you either did a poor sell job, timed it poorly, or made a move out of desperation. Or all of the above.

I wouldn't take Hayes' scoring too seriously, the period he was scoring at a high rate, he was a sieve defensively as the 1C, the period when he played responsible hockey, he scored 1.34 pp/60 (5x5), bottom 3rd line. The truth is somewhere in between, a 2nd line scorer who is below average defensively and who is a below average skater.

 

[gto64dr]

Publicly destroying a player's value is a problem, yes. That's the point.

When you make the big bucks you need to justify it. Show me the quotes where Torts trashed him

 

[flyerslducks]

Tk, hart, Laughton should all go tbh. I love tk and hart but they are just wasting their prime years with this team and we could use the assets and cap space.

I wouldn't take Hayes' scoring too seriously, the period he was scoring at a high rate, he was a sieve defensively as the 1C, the period when he played responsible hockey, he scored 1.34 pp/60 (5x5), bottom 3rd line. The truth is somewhere in between, a 2nd line scorer who is below average defensively and who is a below average skater.

It doesn’t f***ing matter. The point is, hayes produced with this shit team, was an all star, and was retained 50%. Why is this so hard to fathom? Thst production and cap is not worth a 6th and you know it.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Fair, but I'd also say Hall is a better contract and player than Hayes. So maybe he did return more value there, but still minimal and still proof at the lack of value for trading big contracts, regardless of coach hatred.




And that is why I would agree that Torts should not have pushed Hayes out the door.

But right now, trading Hayes in June 2023, Torts did not kill the value of what Hayes-types are returning in June 2023.

Watches the goalposts move on Hall/Hayes....

Hayes was a bad fit at center for the Flyers, not just the $7M which would make it harder for Briere to take money back in other deals, but the only way to sustain his value would be to play him in the top 6, and that would take PT from younger forwards who should be playing. We're rebuilding, right?

So whether they got a 4th or 6th, BFD. They moved him out, freed a slot for a young forward (and Atkinson) next season.
His valued plummeted b/c the league no longer values scoring alone, they want speed and the ability to drive and control play.
We've seen this with a lot of 30+ veteran scorers the last couple years.

Move on. Nothing to see here.

4th or 6th this year you don't hear half the screaming....It's a 2024 6th. I wish we had a chart to show values of picks in drafts and how that value changes in a further away draft.

 

[Beef Invictus]

When you make the big bucks you need to justify it. Show me the quotes where Torts trashed him

 

[gto64dr]

ROFL when did I beg for Tortorella to tank? Coaches don't tank. Players don't tank.

Tortorella is Fletcher's fault. Even if he didn't want Tortorella, he did such a ridiculously bad job with his laughably weak management style that he couldn't prevent the hiring.

Tortorella annihilated Hayes' value. And created a situation so untenable that he apparently needs to be traded no matter what. That's Tortorella's fault.

Several times you explained your definition of

ROFL when did I beg for Tortorella to tank? Coaches don't tank. Players don't tank.

Tortorella is Fletcher's fault. Even if he didn't want Tortorella, he did such a ridiculously bad job with his laughably weak management style that he couldn't prevent the hiring.

Tortorella annihilated Hayes' value. And created a situation so untenable that he apparently needs to be traded no matter what. That's Tortorella's fault.

I recall you explaining in great detail your definition of tanking. Put a team on the ice that won't win so it's not actually tanking.

 

[Tripod]

MUST. DEFEND. EVERYTHING.THE. FLYERS. DO.

 

[dragonoffrost]

It doesn’t f***ing matter. The point is, hayes produced with this shit team, was an all star, and was retained 50%. Why is this so hard to fathom? Thst production and cap is not worth a 6th and you know it.

Let alone a 6th in a future draft!

MUST. DEFEND. EVERYTHING.THE. FLYERS. DO.

I believe you mean....

 

[Beef Invictus]

Several times you explained your definition of

I recall you explaining in great detail your definition of tanking. Put a team on the ice that won't win so it's not actually tanking.

GMs create a tank. You want your players and coaches trying their hardest. You must have missed me saying that for years.

The reason a coach matters in a tank is you want a guy teaching the fresh meat the right way to play. Tortorella cannot and will not do that.

 

[Redpath]

Watches the goalposts move on Hall/Hayes....

Forgive me, not all comparable trades are carbon copies with exact identical trade values.

 

[gto64dr]

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Only a huge leap would consider those remarks as trashing.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Cut off one head and two more will take it’s place it seems.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Cut off one head and two more will take it’s place it seems.

Hail Hydra

 

[Beef Invictus]

Only a huge leap would consider those remarks as trashing.

He's openly criticizing Hayes. Then you get into his actual handling of the player, and it paints a clear picture.

Tortorella has already damaged the trade value of Hayes. Who else will he destroy as we try to supposedly rebuild? Why stand by a guy who does nothing but damage the team?

 

[gto64dr]

GMs create a tank. You want your players and coaches trying their hardest. You must have missed me saying that for years.

The reason a coach matters in a tank is you want a guy teaching the fresh meat the right way to play. Tortorella cannot and will not do that.

Get on a straightaway. Your turning and twisting so much I'm getting Carsick. Admit you hate the guy no matter what he does.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Get on a straightaway. Your turning and twisting so much I'm getting Carsick. Admit you hate the guy no matter what he does.

I have been saying that for years.

I hate incompetence. If Tortorella suddenly became competent for the first time in ages, I would like him.

 

[gto64dr]

I have been saying that for years.

I hate incompetence. If Tortorella suddenly became competent for the first time in ages, I would like him.

He must have done something competent to be rated where he is. Flyers players have been running this team for ages that's why Torts was chosen. This team needs him like they needed Lavy. No players like a task master. They ran Lavy out because they could. Hopefully Torts can withstand the pressure.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He must have done something competent to be rated where he is. Flyers players have been running this team for ages that's why Torts was chosen. This team needs him like they needed Lavy. No players like a task master. They ran Lavy out because they could. Hopefully Torts can withstand the pressure.

What a massive pile of nonsense. The players have never run shit in this franchise.

He's "rated where he is" by the Flyers alone. The most incompetently managed team in the league. Nobody else was hiring him.

 

[gto64dr]

If you don't believe management (the old guard) was sympathetic to the players then you don't know this team. Just look at the better coaches who got canned and then were successful after the Flyers.

 

[gto64dr]

If you don't believe management (the old guard) was sympathetic to the players then you don't know this team. Just look at the better coaches who got canned and then were successful after the Flyers.

Of all the US Coaches Torts is rated #2. He's rated 12-20 depending on the criteria among all the NHL coaches.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]