Speculation: Kessel's Future?

[Stephen]

except alot of those players play an elite two-way game that easily makes up for the couple of points they get less. your acting like points are the only thing that matters in the NHL and news flash there are alot of players who put up less points but are much more valuable to there franchises. heck it can be argued that a guy like Dustin Brown when he plays like he did in the playoffs is alot more valuable to his team then anything we've seen from kessel.

Most of those players have incredibly strong supporting casts:

Kopitar: plays with Richards, Carter, and also Doughty, Quick

Ryan: Getzlaf, Perry

Toews: Kane, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook

Kesler: Presidents Trophy winning club

Kessel is producing his meaningless points with Bozak and a reclaimed Lupul.

 

[Antropovsky]

Brett Hull; who did he win his second cup with?

Who was the leading goal scorer in those playoffs?

Ha! that was pre cap years, Hull was surrounded by exceptional leaders, and skilled line mates. The leafs have not one player to match the leadership that a handful of the players on that team had.

If the salary cap didn't exist, of course I'd say keep Kessel, then surround him with leaders. No such luxury anymore.

 

[Leafidelity]

Hull wasn't brought in as a building block in Detriot he was the final piece... just like he was in Dallas, he was a building block in St. Louis.

Ok, so we have a final piece... I don't see why you need to add these pieces in a certain order at this point. It's not like we're an elite centerman away from a cup.

Ha! that was pre cap years, Hull was surrounded by exceptional leaders, and skilled line mates. The leafs have not one player to match the leadership that a handful of the players on that team had.

If the salary cap didn't exist, of course I'd say keep Kessel, then surround him with leaders. No such luxury anymore.

Does Detroit win the cup without Hull's 10 playoff goals?

 

[Stephen]

Ha! that was pre cap years, Hull was surrounded by exceptional leaders, and skilled line mates. The leafs have not one player to match the leadership that a handful of the players on that team had.

If the salary cap didn't exist, of course I'd say keep Kessel, then surround him with leaders. No such luxury anymore.

Well why don't we go out and get some exceptional leaders and skilled linemates insted of pissing and moaning about how all we have is a goal scorer? Do you propose we get rid of the goal scorer to spite the fact that we don't have leaders and skilled linemates, and one day when we have leaders and skilled linemates we go and try to find another goal scorer?

 

[Leafidelity]

Well why don't we go out and get some exceptional leaders and skilled linemates insted of pissing and moaning about how all we have is a goal scorer? Do you propose we get rid of the goal scorer to spite the fact that we don't have leaders and skilled linemates, and one day when we have leaders and skilled linemates we go and try to find another goal scorer?

Exactly. I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. We have one young piece in place, now find more.

 

[Seedling]

Kessel is UFA in a year. If he can fetch a 1st and a top prospect, he should be moved this year. (top five pick)

Let's say you can get the number four pick and get Drouins and you also get a top prospect like an Oleksiak or a guy like Bermier, you have to do that trade. (just examples )

Maybe Forbert and Bernier.

 

[Leafidelity]

Bernier isn't any better than Reimer.

 

[binop7]

Most of those players have incredibly strong supporting casts:

Kopitar: plays with Richards, Carter, and also Doughty, Quick

Ryan: Getzlaf, Perry

Toews: Kane, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook

Kesler: Presidents Trophy winning club

Kessel is producing his meaningless points with Bozak and a reclaimed Lupul.

Kessel has 90 point potential imo. Call me a homer or w/e, I think he's so streaky because of his linemates. Put Getzlaf next to him and he scores 90 points.

 

[Stephen]

Kessel is UFA in a year. If he can fetch a 1st and a top prospect, he should be moved this year. (top five pick)

Let's say you can get the number four pick and get Drouins and you also get a top prospect like an Oleksiak or a guy like Bermier, you have to do that trade. (just examples )

Maybe Forbert and Bernier.

How do you suppose a team like LA, who is a contender, will possess a top five pick to package up to send us?

 

[Antropovsky]

Ok, so we have a final piece... I don't see why you need to add these pieces in a certain order at this point. It's not like we're an elite centerman away from a cup.



Does Detroit win the cup without Hull's 10 playoff goals?

Well why don't we go out and get some exceptional leaders and skilled linemates insted of pissing and moaning about how all we have is a goal scorer? Do you propose we get rid of the goal scorer to spite the fact that we don't have leaders and skilled linemates, and one day when we have leaders and skilled linemates we go and try to find another goal scorer?

Exactly. I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. We have one young piece in place, now find more.

This is the Cap era, you cannot compare teams now, to teams of the past. Obviously you guys ignored my post when I said, if the cap didn't exist, I'd be in favour of keeping kessel, and surrounding him with leaders. Brett Hull's 10 playoff goals? If there was a cap that year, who would've Holland cut in favour of him? Lidstrom, Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov? He couldn't of predicted Hull's contributions, heck maybe Hull's contributions wouldn't have been so plentiful had he not been surrounded by particular teammates.

 

[Stephen]

Kessel has 90 point potential imo. Call me a homer or w/e, I think he's so streaky because of his linemates. Put Getzlaf next to him and he scores 90 points.

Of course he does. If he was the scorer on the top line and had a guy to play with I'm sure he'd be padding the stats with some easy tap ins and linemates who actually can finish his plays on a consistent basis. He probably would have gotten 90 points if Lupul was healthy.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Kessel has 90 point potential imo. Call me a homer or w/e, I think he's so streaky because of his linemates. Put Getzlaf next to him and he scores 90 points.

Easily! Kessel got 82 points last year, and had he not slumped for the final 1/4 of the season he easily gets 90-95 points last season. I really don't think Kessel needs a playmaking centre, he needs another sniper on his line that or a grinder basically someone to give Kessel space and to take other checkers attention away from him.

 

[Leafidelity]

This is the Cap era, you cannot compare teams now, to teams of the past. Obviously you guys ignored my post when I said, if the cap didn't exist, I'd be in favour of keeping kessel, and surrounding him with leaders. Brett Hull's 10 playoff goals? If there was a cap that year, who would've Holland cut in favour of him? Lidstrom, Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov? He couldn't of predicted Hull's contributions, heck maybe Hull's contributions wouldn't have been so plentiful had he not been surrounded by particular teammates.

What about Kessel's cap bothers you? The Leafs have TONS of cap come 2013-2014, probably one of the most flexible teams in the NHL. Every team will tell you the could find space for a PPG forward.

 

[Stephen]

This is the Cap era, you cannot compare teams now, to teams of the past. Obviously you guys ignored my post when I said, if the cap didn't exist, I'd be in favour of keeping kessel, and surrounding him with leaders. Brett Hull's 10 playoff goals? If there was a cap that year, who would've Holland cut in favour of him? Lidstrom, Yzerman, Shanahan, Fedorov? He couldn't of predicted Hull's contributions, heck maybe Hull's contributions wouldn't have been so plentiful had he not been surrounded by particular teammates.

The cap argument is completely misinformed.

There is so much fat on the Leafs roster, you could reasonably build a super core with the savings on dead weight alone, even with a $60 million cap. Seriously, you're worried about keeping Phil Kessel when we have $19.875 million in very replaceable to completely useless players?

Komisarek $4.5
Liles $3.875
Connolly $4.75
Lombardi $3.5
MacArthur $3.25

That's roughly a third of a $60 million cap on 2 serviceable and 4 completely useless players.

You replace two of them with ELCs, you basically have $18 million to spend on 3 very good and very expensive roster players.

Not to mention Grabovski's bloated $5.5 million or other waste elsewhere.

Not to mention the $2 million in dead cap going to Armstrong and Tucker that comes off the books next year that could simply be tucked away into Kessel's raise.

 

[ULF_55]

Kessel has value, just like Gaborik does.

Good teams don't give players like that away.

Gaborik had 76 points and was a +15.
Kessel had 82 points and was a -10.

Kessel on a better team could make up that 19 point difference.

 

[Antropovsky]

My best comparison for Phil Kessel is Joe Thornton, they put up the fancy point totals, but come playoff time, it's not about just your point totals.

Joe Thornton was 26 (same age as Kessel now) when Boston sold him, and sold him quite low, but inevitably it was probably the best thing for their franchise. They obviously made the decision that he didn't bring enough despite his point totals. Interestingly, Kessel scored 9 goals more then the next highest Bruin in 08-09, they traded him the following year, but still won the Stanley Cup. Interesting, that they didn't find it as important as other on this board, to replace his goal scoring ability.

"I was blindsided," Thornton said in a conference call. "On the one hand it's disappointing, and on the other it's good to start over again. When you don't win, there's going to be changes.

"Obviously [the Bruins] believe in their coach and their general manager, and I'm next in line, so I've got to move on. ... I came back here to win, and we haven't been winning. Whose fault is that? I'm not sure, but I'm out of here, so it must be mine."

 

[Stephen]

My best comparison for Phil Kessel is Joe Thornton, they put up the fancy point totals, but come playoff time, it's not about just your point totals.

Joe Thornton was 26 (same age as Kessel now) when Boston sold him, and sold him quite low, but inevitably it was probably the best thing for their franchise. They obviously made the decision that he didn't bring enough despite his point totals. Interestingly, Kessel scored 9 goals more then the next highest Bruin in 08-09, they traded him the following year, but still won the Stanley Cup. Interesting, that they didn't find it as important as other on this board, to replace his goal scoring ability.

You'll also remember that the guy who made that trade was also not the same guy who rebuilt that franchise, right? Mike O'Connell got fired for making that moron trade and Peter Chiarelli came in and fixed his mess by signing Chara (whom he worked with in Ottawa) and Savard. You can't plan for that nonsense.

This clearly just boils down to you not liking Phil Kessel and has nothing to do with what's good for the Leafs.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

didnt the Bruins only get Sturm and Stuart for Thornton? this is seen as a good thing for their franchise? Thornton is going to be a hall of famer when all is said and done.

 

[Morbo]

My best comparison for Phil Kessel is Joe Thornton, they put up the fancy point totals, but come playoff time, it's not about just your point totals.

Joe Thornton was 26 (same age as Kessel now) when Boston sold him, and sold him quite low, but inevitably it was probably the best thing for their franchise. They obviously made the decision that he didn't bring enough despite his point totals. Interestingly, Kessel scored 9 goals more then the next highest Bruin in 08-09, they traded him the following year, but still won the Stanley Cup. Interesting, that they didn't find it as important as other on this board, to replace his goal scoring ability.

They won the Cup because Tim Thomas was otherworldly, not because they traded Kessel.

 

[Antropovsky]

didnt the Bruins only get Sturm and Stuart for Thornton? this is seen as a good thing for their franchise? Thornton is going to be a hall of famer when all is said and done.

So a hall of famer is more important than a Stanley Cup?

 

[Kingstonian84*]

There is so much fat on the Leafs roster, you could reasonably build a super core with the savings on dead weight alone, even with a $60 million cap. Seriously, you're worried about keeping Phil Kessel when we have $19.875 million in very replaceable to completely useless players?

Komisarek $4.5
Liles $3.875
Connolly $4.75
Lombardi $3.5
MacArthur $3.25

Yup, all these players are overpaid and expendable. Komi is making 2x the amount of a bottom pairing guy and lets face it guys like are a dime a dozen we can easily find a guy to take his spot that is younger/cheaper/better then Komi is. Liles while I didnt mind the trade, Burke signing him to a 4 year deal knowing that he was north of 30/history of concussions/small player was just idiotic and reckless, not to mention we have Gardiner/Rielly/Blacker who all play a similar game to Liles. Connolly was just a bad signing all around, I don't care how skilled the guy is he has a serious injury prone past and a history of off ice problems, he is not the player Burke should have targeted. Lombardi was just a throw in because Burke wanted Franson, I can't fault Burke for pulling the trigger on that deal. Mac, I have no issue with he's a average 3rd line player who can give you 40-45 pts but he's not worth $3.5M a season either, Burke overpaid for him as well.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

So a hall of famer is more important than a Stanley Cup?

no.

but a bad trade is a bad trade.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

I think the Leafs will retain him. Would take an overpayment to take one of the best scorers off the Leafs hands, IMO.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'd take a ~70 point season from the bolded over a 82 point season from Kessel.

Yep. People get blinded by point totals and dont really see the big picture of Phil Kessel's game.

He's like that account executive who brought in the most in new sales but lost just as many accounts.

Doesn't really help your team all that much, and certainly not a star performer.

Stars make a difference.

Period.

 

[Antropovsky]

They won the Cup because Tim Thomas was otherworldly, not because they traded Kessel.

How do you know?

This isn't an argument that will be won tonight, and there isn't a right or wrong explanation for what happened with past teams. We can have our opinions, and mine is, that Boston doesn't win with Joe Thornton... and who gives a **** about the return. The change is what mattered, "in my opinion".

Kessel's value is high right now, it may go up, say in a few months. It may go down. My concern is that Caryle's defensive system is gonna expose a lot of Kessel's deficiencies or flaws (if you will). Again these "flaws" are based on my own opinion. I think his point totals may take a hit, and I think he might feud with Caryle, and just may bring that to the public (as he's done in the past). If we wait for any of these circumstances to happen (which obviously they may not), his value on the market will definitely take a hit. If we wait until he approaches UFA status, his value, again will take a hit. So if I'm a gambler, because I don't think we'll be able to surround Kessel with the leadership\skill needed to make us a playoff contender anytime soon (which is IMO the only time we'd be a contender with Kessel on our roster).. I say trade him now, while his value is where it's at.