Karlsson vs Trade 'Haul' Stat Comparison Thread

[Xspyrit]

Well, it was actually made to help out teams at retaining their own talent. They have the 8 years incentive vs other teams who can offer 7 years... not sure what is stupid about it

All that being said, as much as the Sens were bashed for that trade and how much Sharks fans gloated about it, the big losers here could be the Sharks. Imagine if they miss the playoffs and Karlsson walks....

 

[Micklebot]

What a stupid and archaic CBA rule. Makes me wonder how many of these small items in the CBA are going to be major negotiating points in the next negotiation.

The rule is intended to give teams a leg up over other teams signing their own players at UFA time. This quirk maintains the intent while taking away the ability to trade a pending UFA in the offseason prior to jul 1st and the new team signing the 8 year deal.

I doubt they'll get rid of it, though they might tweak it to allow teams in SJ's current situation to make an 8 year offer.

 

[mysens]

Maybe Karlsson is planning on tanking the season so his new ownership friends get a first round pick and he comes back to ottawa at the same time and signs a new 8 yr deal. What a story that would be.

 

[supsens]

What a stupid and archaic CBA rule. Makes me wonder how many of these small items in the CBA are going to be major negotiating points in the next negotiation.

This already was a major nagotiating point. Players probably wanted 20 year contracts, owners 5. Then owners would want UFA's to not be UFA's untill 30, players probably 25. So they worked it out. The date for the 8 year contract closed a loophole

Its far from a small item. It was probably item no.2 after revenue share

 

[JD1]

Maybe Karlsson is planning on tanking the season so his new ownership friends get a first round pick and he comes back to ottawa at the same time and signs a new 8 yr deal. What a story that would be.

at this point I believe the only place EK can get an 8 year deal is SJ and not til after the TDL. only 7 years as a ufa.

 

[pzeeman]

at this point I believe the only place EK can get an 8 year deal is SJ and not til after the TDL. only 7 years as a ufa.

That's my understanding too.

I like that only the player's current team can add the extra year, and only before July 1 - gives the player's home a small (but potentially important)advantage. What surprised me is that the 8th year isn't available to SJ right now. I guess that means people can stop anticipating a Karlsson extension (or not). I think in this case it might actually help SJ. Once inertia sets in for Erik and Melinda, and they start making a life for themselves, they'll probably want to stay.

So far, I've been surprised with how well the return has fit into the Senators. I hope it keeps going!

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Maybe Karlsson is planning on tanking the season so his new ownership friends get a first round pick and he comes back to ottawa at the same time and signs a new 8 yr deal. What a story that would be.

It's great that you prefixed your statement with a maybe instead of guaranteeing anything

 

[NorthCoast]

Sometimes you have to just cut bait and move on, there really is no reason to assume that EK would have garnered more, as even more of a rental at the TDL.

What?

Every expert will confirm that if a player has more value than his contract, then the more years on his contract the more attractive he is for other teams. You are not really debating this are you.


I assume what you are trying to say is that even though he SHOULD have been worth more at the TLD, that doesn't mean the offers were there.

Which of course I would then say is the GMs fault for mismanaging the trade by not creating a marketplace for the player that netted a return comparable to what we gave up for Duchene, considering that EK should have held a lot more value than Duchene.


And it's not that people are not moving on from the EK trade, but using it as evidence as to why they lack faith in the GMs future moves, because it seems undeniable that other teams have done a better job to maximise the return for their elite players than PD has done.

 

[alfstheman]

... considering that EK should have held a lot more value than Duchene...

While I dont disagree, the extra year for Duchene plays a factor into the return Col got. EK was a 1 year rental after a terrible year defensively for EK.

I love the guy but last year EK got burned time after time. He just wasnt as explosive as before. Maybe he'll get back to normal but with serious ankle surgery you never can know....

 

[alfstheman]

It was all about how incompetent the Senators are and that any other GM in the league would have had this thing done ages ago because it's such a simple negotiation for a guy like Karlsson. I'm just wondering what people are speculating is the reason Wilson is being held back from extending the guy after they've had him for over a month now.

Its almost like people have no idea what they are talking about most of the time here. Karlsson is probably going to FA which is where he gets to choose where he lives/plays and will probably get the most money that way.

If SJ doesnt make the playoffs this year or doesnt do that well then I dont see why karlsson would even consider staying...

 

[NorthCoast]

While I dont disagree, the extra year for Duchene plays a factor into the return Col got. EK was a 1 year rental after a terrible year defensively for EK.

I love the guy but last year EK got burned time after time. He just wasnt as explosive as before. Maybe he'll get back to normal but with serious ankle surgery you never can know....

EK was 1 and a half year rental when EM/PD decided to rebuild. Even with the injury, he should still have had more value at 6.5 mil than a disgruntled Duchene with 1 and a half years left.

The fact that it took PD until training camp to make the deal shouldn't change the fact that at the time they decided to trade EK he should have been worth the same/more than Duchene got. PD did not maximize the value and that has nothing to do with anything EK was doing.

 

[NorthCoast]

Its almost like people have no idea what they are talking about most of the time here. Karlsson is probably going to FA which is where he gets to choose where he lives/plays and will probably get the most money that way.

If SJ doesnt make the playoffs this year or doesnt do that well then I dont see why karlsson would even consider staying...

I think people are angry at the franchise for playing whatever role they had in EK not wanting to resign with the organisation.

Sure, maybe EK wanted to go to FA even if we had just won the cup, were owned by Jeff Bezos who gave the team a blank cheque, and we were offering 15 mil, and all his best friends were on the team.

I don't care about Karlsson motivations. But I am frustrated if management did anything to make the situation worse...even if they planned to trade him anyways. Because they devalued the asset. Karlssons gone, but PD is still here and I worry about how PD handled Karlsson because we still have Stone/Duchene to go through and if he handles it the same then we will end up with less value again. Regardless of the budget, you have no hope if you don't make it out on top of some of these situations.

 

[coladin]

at this point I believe the only place EK can get an 8 year deal is SJ and not til after the TDL. only 7 years as a ufa.

Will he even play another 8 years?

 

[alfstheman]

I worry about how PD handled Karlsson because we still have Stone/Duchene to go through and if he handles it the same then we will end up with less value again. Regardless of the budget, you have no hope if you don't make it out on top of some of these situations.

I think PD did well on the brassard trade. Other than that though its been a 90% off liquidation sale. Most gm's probably know that so they will always low ball pd knowing that he will cave eventually due to pressure from Melnyk to pull the trigger (or possibly just incompetance/terrible negotiating skills).

I think Melnyk will open the dusty wallet for at least one of Duchene/Stone but wouldnt surprise me if they traded them both for a few conditional picks lol...

 

[Ice-Tray]

What?

Every expert will confirm that if a player has more value than his contract, then the more years on his contract the more attractive he is for other teams. You are not really debating this are you.


I assume what you are trying to say is that even though he SHOULD have been worth more at the TLD, that doesn't mean the offers were there.

Which of course I would then say is the GMs fault for mismanaging the trade by not creating a marketplace for the player that netted a return comparable to what we gave up for Duchene, considering that EK should have held a lot more value than Duchene.


And it's not that people are not moving on from the EK trade, but using it as evidence as to why they lack faith in the GMs future moves, because it seems undeniable that other teams have done a better job to maximise the return for their elite players than PD has done.

Sorry that was my bad, I mean NEXT TDL. I agree with you that he should have had more value LAST TDL given that he would have given his new team a playoff run as well (if it was a playoff team).

Either the offers weren't there and it took the pressure of the impending season to sweeten the pot a little, or they legitimately wanted to trade Hoffman and make EK an offer.

 

[Ice-Tray]

EK was 1 and a half year rental when EM/PD decided to rebuild. Even with the injury, he should still have had more value at 6.5 mil than a disgruntled Duchene with 1 and a half years left.

The fact that it took PD until training camp to make the deal shouldn't change the fact that at the time they decided to trade EK he should have been worth the same/more than Duchene got. PD did not maximize the value and that has nothing to do with anything EK was doing.

The return for EK can be argued as a legitimately better package than what we gave up for Duchene though. Especially given that the lottery protected 1st had no business being that low at the moment of the trade.

There is a good chance that next year's pick won't be as low as this years, and the SJs pick is not protected which is great for us if they miss either year which is possible as well.

 

[stempniaksen]

The return for EK can be argued as a legitimately better package than what we gave up for Duchene though. Especially given that the lottery protected 1st had no business being that low at the moment of the trade.

There is a good chance that next year's pick won't be as low as this years, and the SJs pick is not protected which is great for us if they miss either year which is possible as well.

A lot of things would have to go right for the package we received from SJ to be better than the package the Avs got for Duchene. We can all hope for the best, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one.

 

[NorthCoast]

Sorry that was my bad, I mean NEXT TDL. I agree with you that he should have had more value LAST TDL given that he would have given his new team a playoff run as well (if it was a playoff team).

Either the offers weren't there and it took the pressure of the impending season to sweeten the pot a little, or they legitimately wanted to trade Hoffman and make EK an offer.

Or the offers were their and PD made the wrong call.

Or they tried to include Ryan and were falsely led to believe that they could get a better deal in the summer, then couldn't or got cold feet on devaluing Karlesson, or realised that they would need Ryan to hit the cap floor if Duchene and Stone bloted.

Or they mismanaged communications with other teams leading up to the TDL and didn't give the market enough time to react, prepare an offer.

Or, as you said, they legitimately wanted to make EK and offer, which turned out to be the wrong call because he ended up refusing and this is something they should have had a better feel for at the TDL.

At the end of the day, they mismanaged the asset and the buck stops at PD. Every GM has to deal with market factors out of their control and players that don't play ball. The job is to overcome those obstacles.

 

[topshelf15]

I think people are angry at the franchise for playing whatever role they had in EK not wanting to resign with the organisation.

Sure, maybe EK wanted to go to FA even if we had just won the cup, were owned by Jeff Bezos who gave the team a blank cheque, and we were offering 15 mil, and all his best friends were on the team.

I don't care about Karlsson motivations. But I am frustrated if management did anything to make the situation worse...even if they planned to trade him anyways. Because they devalued the asset. Karlssons gone, but PD is still here and I worry about how PD handled Karlsson because we still have Stone/Duchene to go through and if he handles it the same then we will end up with less value again. Regardless of the budget, you have no hope if you don't make it out on top of some of these situations.

Biggest issue,is the budget....Money in for money out or giving away picks to save paying bonus money...This kind of crap paints a giant billboard to the rest of the league of what your priorities are...And why we get shafted on almost every deal we make

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Biggest issue,is the budget....Money in for money out or giving away picks to save paying bonus money...This kind of crap paints a giant billboard to the rest of the league of what your priorities are...And why we get shafted on almost every deal we make

Do you think the cats out of the bag? Surely the rest of the league hasn't yet realized that shedding money is our number one priority.

 

[topshelf15]

Do you think the cats out of the bag? Surely the rest of the league hasn't yet realized that shedding money is our number one priority.

Lol ,its been a problem for as long as I have watched the team...Look its fine to not spend to the cap all the time ,but for heavens sake dont cheap out all the damn time when it comes to building assets up for the team...

 

[topshelf15]

Also EM needs to stop thinking he knows better,and hire a good hockey man give him the tools he needs and just watch from his couch and stay out of trying to manage the team...

 

[coladin]

EK was 1 and a half year rental when EM/PD decided to rebuild. Even with the injury, he should still have had more value at 6.5 mil than a disgruntled Duchene with 1 and a half years left.

The fact that it took PD until training camp to make the deal shouldn't change the fact that at the time they decided to trade EK he should have been worth the same/more than Duchene got. PD did not maximize the value and that has nothing to do with anything EK was doing.

I think you are forgetting the salary equation factored in. Yes, Duchene and Karlsson make the same money now, but whoever acquires Karlsson needs to find 12M in space.

 

[NorthCoast]

I think you are forgetting the salary equation factored in. Yes, Duchene and Karlsson make the same money now, but whoever acquires Karlsson needs to find 12M in space.

Why would their next contract factor into their rental price? Unless you are claiming that PD paid an extension price for Duchene, without an extension.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Lol ,its been a problem for as long as I have watched the team...Look its fine to not spend to the cap all the time ,but for heavens sake dont cheap out all the damn time when it comes to building assets up for the team...

Its always been an issue, but it seems especially bad these last couple years when we started using assets like draft picks put in transactions for the sole purpose of saving money.

Being poor was one thing, bleeding assets to try to compensate, while spending foolishly on the wrong players is another issue in itself.