Kadri or Frattin

[Tak7]

Where do you get these numbers from? He has a 30% chance to be a second line player or bust according to who? By all accounts he looks like hes ready to make in an impact for the leafs, according to his coaches and you know others that watch him constantly. Frattin is a 25 year old player who most likely will be a constant third liner and if hes lucky a second liner. Again, Kadri has out performed Frattin constantly according to the stats.

First - Where do you fit Kadri into the roster?

It's not on the first line, because that's set in stone - Lupul-Bozak-Kessel.

It's not on the second line, because that's almost all set in stone too - JvR-Grabovski-MacArthur/Frattin ?

There's no way MaC isn't playing on that 2nd line, at least to start, is there? He can't be used anywhere else.

That's 6 or 7 forward positions gone already.

Who else makes this team?

What about the new guys? Kamorov and McClemment are locks you have to think. 8 spots gone.

Steckel was a big favorite of the coach when he came in last season. Saw his minutes jump significantly from the Wilson-Carlyle transition. 9 forwards.

RC has spoken about the expectation that Connolly is going to bounce back strong this year. Don't think he would say that if he had no intention of dressing him. 10 spots gone.

That leaves 2 forward spots - Mike Brown? Colton Orr? Lombardi? Nazem Kadri?

Where does he fit in? I'm not convinced there is room for him here.


What sort of player is Kadri?

Frattin can move back and forth between that second and third line. He's got the work rate and intelligence to be a decent third liner, and he's got a shot that can put the puck in the net and provide some secondary scoring for that second line.

Kadri? What is he? Does anyone know? He's got the stick skills and the ability, but is he a constant point producer? In the AHL he has been recently, but does this team need another scorer (top 2 lines virtually set in stone).

Can Kadri play in a checking role? Consider his biggest weakness to be what he does without the puck, before you answer that question.


Does Kadri make this team?

I don't think there's room for him.


What does that mean?

I think he's done in Toronto.

I don't think it's his fault, I just think there are too many people ahead of him that deserve a spot over him. I also don't think he's ever proved reliable enough to consistently push for a spot in the NHL.

 

[LMFAO]

both should make it and be on the 2nd line!

JVR - Kadri - Frattin

What happens to the 27.5 Millions dollar man ?

 

[Bomber0104]

I don't think it's his fault, I just think there are too many people ahead of him that deserve a spot over him. I also don't think he's ever proved reliable enough to consistently push for a spot in the NHL.

First of all, great post.

I don't fault players either for the circumstances they find themselves in.

But I would just like to say that this is yet another nail in the coffin for Brian Burke and a true testament to how glad I am that this guy is gone.

This was his first and second highest draft pick next to Rielly and its been a disaster.

Not Kadris fault. He couldve been on any other team in the first round.

Burke picked him..

It was such a bad bad bad pick.

And watching this kid constantly fail is just a true statement to how bad of a job Burke did here in Toronto and failed each and every one of us.

 

[7even]

First of all, great post.

I don't fault players either for the circumstances they find themselves in.

But I would just like to say that this is yet another nail in the coffin for Brian Burke and a true testament to how glad I am that this guy is gone.

This was his first and second highest draft pick next to Rielly and its been a disaster.

Not Kadris fault. He couldve been on any other team in the first round.

Burke picked him..

It was such a bad bad bad pick.

And watching this kid constantly fail is just a true statement to how bad of a job Burke did here in Toronto and failed each and every one of us.

I'm interested in your justification of Nazem Kadri being a "failure" and "disaster."

 

[sangreale]

During the AHL playoffs last year and before he got hurt was a dominant player on the ice. Frattin that is. Connolly and Lombardi are expiring after this year. Kadri's time is then.

Come to think of it, likely Connolly will get hurt within a few weeks and Kadri will probably have his roster spot.

 

[masyo88*]

First - Where do you fit Kadri into the roster?

It's not on the first line, because that's set in stone - Lupul-Bozak-Kessel.

It's not on the second line, because that's almost all set in stone too - JvR-Grabovski-MacArthur/Frattin ?

There's no way MaC isn't playing on that 2nd line, at least to start, is there? He can't be used anywhere else.

That's 6 or 7 forward positions gone already.

Who else makes this team?

What about the new guys? Kamorov and McClemment are locks you have to think. 8 spots gone.

Steckel was a big favorite of the coach when he came in last season. Saw his minutes jump significantly from the Wilson-Carlyle transition. 9 forwards.

RC has spoken about the expectation that Connolly is going to bounce back strong this year. Don't think he would say that if he had no intention of dressing him. 10 spots gone.

That leaves 2 forward spots - Mike Brown? Colton Orr? Lombardi? Nazem Kadri?

Where does he fit in? I'm not convinced there is room for him here.


What sort of player is Kadri?

Frattin can move back and forth between that second and third line. He's got the work rate and intelligence to be a decent third liner, and he's got a shot that can put the puck in the net and provide some secondary scoring for that second line.

Kadri? What is he? Does anyone know? He's got the stick skills and the ability, but is he a constant point producer? In the AHL he has been recently, but does this team need another scorer (top 2 lines virtually set in stone).

Can Kadri play in a checking role? Consider his biggest weakness to be what he does without the puck, before you answer that question.


Does Kadri make this team?

I don't think there's room for him.


What does that mean?

I think he's done in Toronto.

I don't think it's his fault, I just think there are too many people ahead of him that deserve a spot over him. I also don't think he's ever proved reliable enough to consistently push for a spot in the NHL.

No Mac is not set in stone, Carlyle has said that he is going to make players play out of position. And a third line of of Kadri Mclement and JVR has serious potential. Thats where I think he can fit in. Frattin can move back and forth right? But to bad he doesn't have the skills as Kadri. Frattin can be a pretty good third line player, thats it. Hes one goal during his call up proves he can score? Again based on the evidence Kadri has out performed Frattin in the NHL and the AHL. Just because he thinks Connoly can bounce back does not mean he actually will. Everyone knows what Kadri is, just cause your oblivious to it doesnt mean others are. Kadri has elite play making skills and has the potential to be an above average top 6 player. I think Kadri will make the team and knock out one of Connoly, Lombardi and Steckel for their spot. If hes done, then why has Nonis you know the GM gone on account saying they are not trading young players?

 

[masyo88*]

And watching this kid constantly fail is just a true statement to how bad of a job Burke did here in Toronto and failed each and every one of us.

How in gods name can you say a 22 year old kid has failed in Toronto??? Please explain
Yet hes scored more goals and registered more points than your boy Frattin in a shorter amount of time in the NHL and the AHL, and is three younger then Frattin. But yet you consider Kadri a failure!!! Your logic is hilarious, please dude.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm interested in your justification of Nazem Kadri being a "failure" and "disaster."

I responded to your other posts a page ago, so you know.

Nazem Kadri has been a disaster because the players chose before and after him are much better NHL players than him....

The only thing that Kadri fans have left to cling to is that he is being purposely held back in the American Hockey League (where he isn't even doing that good) and hasn't been struggling in every opportunity given to him in the NHL.

 

[Bomber0104]

How in gods name can you say a 22 year old kid has failed in Toronto??? Please explain
Yet hes scored more goals and registered more points than your boy Frattin in a shorter amount of time in the NHL and the AHL, and is three younger then Frattin. But yet you consider Kadri a failure!!! Your logic is hilarious, please dude.

Hockey isn't about points.

It's about so much more.

And Frattin isn't my "boy"...and to be honest it actually is quite sad that I have to look upon a JFJ college pick as our top prospect after being this bad for so long.

Kadri was a terrible draft pick and it's about time people own up to how dumb Burke was for picking him!

 

[Sokil]

And Frattin isn't my "boy"...and to be honest it actually is quite sad that I have to look upon a JFJ college pick as our top prospect after being this bad for so long.

Kadri was a terrible draft pick and it's about time people own up to how dumb Burke was for picking him!

So true.

 

[Bomber0104]

So true.

While I think Rielly has more potential overall...as of now Frattin is our nearest and most surest thing to being an above average NHL player, and most certainly at the forward position.

 

[Tak7]

First of all, great post.

I don't fault players either for the circumstances they find themselves in.

But I would just like to say that this is yet another nail in the coffin for Brian Burke and a true testament to how glad I am that this guy is gone.

This was his first and second highest draft pick next to Rielly and its been a disaster.

Not Kadris fault. He couldve been on any other team in the first round.

Burke picked him..

It was such a bad bad bad pick.

Thanks for the compliment man!

In regards to your post - hindsight is 20/20. Everyone thought that the Leafs were getting a tenacious, highly skiled forward with great hands and fantastic play-making ability - Darcy Tucker meets Alex Mogilny. If that's the way a player is billed at 5th overall in the draft, I think you take a player like that every single time.

It hasn't worked out for him though. Not yet.

But before we begin to say it was a bad pick and it won't work out, let's consider two things:

First - How would he have fared elsewhere?

If Kadri got picked up by a youthful Senators team, would he be any closer to the NHL? I'm not entirely convinced he would.

What about an organization that notoriously handles their youth smartly? Detriot? I don't think Kadri cracks that roster 4 years after being drafted either.

So while it's easy to look back and say that Burke made a horrible pick, I'm not so sure this is all on Burke and not at least partially on the player.

Fact is - this is a 26th placed team in the National Hockey League, and Nazem Kadri is possibly going to fail to break into the team at the 4th attempt since being drafted 5th overall. Some of that falls onto the player.


Second - Progress?

Regardless of how anyone feels about Kadri, one thing that can't be ignored is actually something that Darren Dreger correctly pointed out last season; that everytime Kadri has come up into the NHL via a call-up, he's looked that little bit better. Either he's faster, or stronger, or more confident with the puck, or more expressive in his stick handling, or just generally more noticeable on the ice. So as far as progress goes, he's going in the right direction.

It's probably worth taking note of the other players in his draft year as well. While it's easy to look at the guys who went above him and see their superstar status (like Evander Kane or John Tavarez), there are a lot of guys that were drafted in and around Kadri in 2009 who are in a similar boat - still trying to establish themsevles as NHLers.

Everyone here has a love in with Brayden Schenn - he's played just 12 more games than Kadri so far.

Dallas' pick in that draft, 7th overall, Scott Glennie - don't think he's played a game in the NHL yet.

Ottawa's Cowen went through his first full year only last season.

And so on and so forth.

So while it does look like stagnated progress, it's probably worth noting that based on his draft class, he's generally in line with most of the players that were drafted in and around him in 2009 in terms of whether or not they have become established NHLers or not.

The final point - there's lots of money, and potentially roster positions, coming off of the books next summer. That could mean openings for players here. Lombardi, Connolly, are likely gone. Does Clarke MacArthur have a future here?

While it looks bleak for Kadri now, this time next summer (assuming he's still here), this roster might look very different - what now looks like a log jam of wingers and a congested roster where there's no real conceivable way in my opinion that he makes it, next year we might be looking at a scenario where there's a burning roster hole opening up and waiting for Kadri to take it.

 

[Sokil]

Though, 2009 was a weak draft. Kadri wasn't a bad pick, he was the best of the rest. Outside of Kulikov, there weren't any better guys on the board that we missed on.

 

[Sokil]

While I think Rielly has more potential overall...as of now Frattin is our nearest and most surest thing to being an above average NHL player, and most certainly at the forward position.

I disagree about him being above average. I see no reason why he's anything more than a 4th line scrub / AHL fodder. He's done nothing to impress and was a late bloomer to boot.

 

[masyo88*]

Hockey isn't about points.

It's about so much more.

And Frattin isn't my "boy"...and to be honest it actually is quite sad that I have to look upon a JFJ college pick as our top prospect after being this bad for so long.

Kadri was a terrible draft pick and it's about time people own up to how dumb Burke was for picking him!

Yea your right, hockey isnt about points.... and goals don't count for nothing either right? LOL Dude Frattin, is third line material, and if hes lucky like really lucky he can be a second line player. Frattin is not our top prospect LOL, I wouldn't even consider him a prospect considering hes like 25. Gardener, Riley, Biggs, KADRI are all younger and better prospects than Frattin. Kadri is the better player, better potential, younger and based on there performance in the NHL and he AHL, the one with the better future.

 

[Bomber0104]

Though, 2009 was a weak draft. Kadri wasn't a bad pick, he was the best of the rest. Outside of Kulikov, there weren't any better guys on the board that we missed on.

Cowen, Kulikov, Kassian, Kreider, Leddy, Rundblad, Johanssen, O Rielly...

 

[KPower]

I responded to your other posts a page ago, so you know.

Nazem Kadri has been a disaster because the players chose before and after him are much better NHL players than him....

The only thing that Kadri fans have left to cling to is that he is being purposely held back in the American Hockey League (where he isn't even doing that good) and hasn't been struggling in every opportunity given to him in the NHL.

Well the leafs couldn't draft players chosen ahead of Kadri.

Take another look at the 2009 nhl draft and the players chosen after Kadri.

Pretty meh if you ask me.

 

[Bomber0104]

I disagree about him being above average. I see no reason why he's anything more than a 4th line scrub / AHL fodder. He's done nothing to impress and was a late bloomer to boot.

Because he was a rookie last year and he showed he could play at least on the 3rd line?

 

[Sokil]

Yea your right, hockey isnt about points.... and goals don't count for nothing either right? LOL Dude Frattin, is third line material, and if hes lucky like really lucky he can be a second line player. Frattin is not our top prospect LOL, I wouldn't even consider him a prospect considering hes like 25. Gardener, Riley, Biggs, KADRI are all younger and better prospects than Frattin. Kadri is the better player, better potential, younger and based on there performance in the NHL and he AHL, the one with the better future.

Kadri has higher potential but it's debatable that he's currently a better player. We'll have to see how he fares during a season, if he gets knocked around, and if he can maintain his offense against NHL defensive systems. He could easily be another Suglobov.

 

[masyo88*]

While I think Rielly has more potential overall...as of now Frattin is our nearest and most surest thing to being an above average NHL player, and most certainly at the forward position.

What are you talking about? No one has ever I mean ever said that Frattin will be "above average NHL player". If anything he will be a a good two way third liner, and if he gets lucky maybe a second liner, but most likely not. And its not fair to call him a prospect considering hes like 25 all ready.

 

[Sokil]

Because he was a rookie last year and he showed he could play at least on the 3rd line*?

*3rd line on a basement team with no depth.

 

[Bomber0104]

Yea your right, hockey isnt about points.... and goals don't count for nothing either right? LOL Dude Frattin, is third line material, and if hes lucky like really lucky he can be a second line player. Frattin is not our top prospect LOL, I wouldn't even consider him a prospect considering hes like 25. Gardener, Riley, Biggs, KADRI are all younger and better prospects than Frattin. Kadri is the better player, better potential, younger and based on there performance in the NHL and he AHL, the one with the better future.

Nope. Kadri better start getting on the Barry Bonds diet if he wants to be a bonafide 2nd liner on the Toronto Leafs.

Frattin just has those genetics.

Something the Leafs staff should have realized when he went through physicals and interviews and such.

If you can crush a kids hand with a handshake you should just pass on him for the 2nd round.

 

[Tak7]

No Mac is not set in stone, Carlyle has said that he is going to make players play out of position. And a third line of of Kadri Mclement and JVR has serious potential. Thats where I think he can fit in. Frattin can move back and forth right? But to bad he doesn't have the skills as Kadri. Frattin can be a pretty good third line player, thats it. Hes one goal during his call up proves he can score? Again based on the evidence Kadri has out performed Frattin in the NHL and the AHL. Just because he thinks Connoly can bounce back does not mean he actually will. Everyone knows what Kadri is, just cause your oblivious to it doesnt mean others are. Kadri has elite play making skills and has the potential to be an above average top 6 player. I think Kadri will make the team and knock out one of Connoly, Lombardi and Steckel for their spot. If hes done, then why has Nonis you know the GM gone on account saying they are not trading young players?

Think you've completely misinterpreted my post.

First off - I'm not presenting a case as to why Kadri is a bust, merely suggesting why I don't see any possible fit for Kadri on this team as it currently is setup.

Re Frattin - he's got the shot and the work rate and the discipline to be, on the whole, a far more versatile and reliable player in a Carlyle lineup than Kadri, who I feel at this moment in time is a limited player. Sure he's got the hands and the playmaking ability and the offensive mind, but can that be translated successfully on an NHL stage?

Maybe, maybe not - problem is with your ridiculous third line suggestion of JvR-McClemment-Kadri; you talk about Frattin's shortcomings as a player without discussing Kadri's? Namely he's not great defensively? And yet you propose that Carlyle, a stickler for defense, and someone who places huge importance on a defensive checking line, would want to use Naz on that line?

We will agree to disagree - but I believe that if Kadri doesn't make the roster out of camp this year, then he's pretty much done as a Leaf; what's the point of keeping him around if he/you won't let him beat out the current group of nothings? At that point, you are better off just trading the kid in a right package if available.

 

[masyo88*]

Cowen, Kulikov, Kassian, Kreider, Leddy, Rundblad, Johanssen, O Rielly...

Do you actually think before you post, or does the crap come out naturally?

 

[Bomber0104]

*3rd line on a basement team with no depth.

Played well with Grabovski.

Physically dominated Adam Mquaid.

Owns a lethal shot.

As a rookie.

Good enough for me.

What's Kadri done? Ever? A few dipsy doodle shootout moves?