Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread

[ottomaddox]

He's been disappointing.

Perhaps you disagree.

Click to read more...

 

[BigBlu]

It's bad. It's really bad.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

I am disappoint

 

[Dayjobdave]

He was a suspect, then a prospect, then a scratch, then good. He’s lost his mojo now, and he is currently not good.

That’s disappointing. But he could be good again.

 

[Bomber0104]

What a fall from grace.

He was part of the "best pairing in hockey" just one season ago, based on blogger-stat-centric things I read here...

Holl always was what he was, and regardless of what useless blogger-stats said about him, he was always treading water in the NHL and being elevated by Muzzin the past few years.

Now that Muzzin's taken a noticeable step back, he's back to the same status he was when he arrived in Toronto: Depth defenceman/AHL tweener

Think Marincin-level player but with less down-low ability, and way more over-confidence in his offensive/puck-moving skill.

 

[Apex Predator]

Could this be that Jake Muzzin carried him the last few years and now Muzzin has struggled and it’s exposed Holl.

I like Holl but he’s always been a bottom pair dman who we got great value for.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The Muzzin-Holl pairing has been disappointing, but funny enough, they have been impressive away from each other.

Even today, with Holl playing with a guy with 2 games of NHL experience and Muzzin playing with a guy who had like 15 games of NHL experience, it was a major improvement.

Jake Muzzin - Justin Holl : 4.87 xGF%
Jake Muzzin without Holl: 87.62 xGF%
Justin Holl without Muzzin: 85.83 xGF%

Zone starts is a big part of that, but no way that zone starts explains that huge discrepancy. They suck together, mostly based on the rush because neither are great skaters and both seem to have a major drop in IQ when they play together. When they play away from each other, it seems like both just suddenly know what to do like they did when they were together last year.

 

[ottomaddox]

Could this be that Jake Muzzin carried him the last few years and now Muzzin has struggled and it’s exposed Holl.

I like Holl but he’s always been a bottom pair dman who we got great value for.

Definitely. Whenever Muzzin was injured Holl showed his true colors: 6-7 dman.

 

[ottomaddox]

People are always going to think about McCann now...

I was surprised that Holl was protected in the expansion draft. I like Holl, but he never seemed like the kind of player you protect.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Lilly is better skater and passer than Holl but most importantly, Lilly doesn’t have enough confidence to pinch or join the rush as often as Holl, which if the puck is turnover, Muzzin had a hard time tracking back. The fact that Lilly doesn’t jump in as often as Holl already with eliminating the odd man rushes which helps Muzzin.
When Holl was paired with Rubins or Sandin or Dermott, it seemed like Holl knows he can’t let his partner expose and also stop gambling as much.
Overall, I think Holl plays a safer game away from Muzzin.

 

[Buds17]

Undoubtedly a tough game for Holl tonight. It's fine enough to be disappointed and wish to drop him in the lineup. That still has to coincide with trust in the promoted option though. In support of that, I will note that Liljegren had a strong showing defensively against Tampa and even outplayed Holl in terms of minutes by an ever-so-slight margin. We'll see how it all shakes out.

 

[capfit9]

McCann & Kerfoot or Dermott & Holl

 

[BeLeafing]

It's been a really tough start to the year for both him and Muzzin. Definitely getting to the point where it's worth giving Liljegren a long look next to Muzz and hope Jake starts to turn it around.

Holl's play has for sure put me in the camp of wanting to trade for a defenseman at the deadline though. I think we need a better guy to play with Muzzin, and the offense is good enough that I don't think we need to add there especially with Mikheyev returning soon as well.

 

[Stephen]

I think Lilly is better skater and passer than Holl but most importantly, Lilly doesn’t have enough confidence to pinch or join the rush as often as Holl, which if the puck is turnover, Muzzin had a hard time tracking back. The fact that Lilly doesn’t jump in as often as Holl already with eliminating the odd man rushes which helps Muzzin.
When Holl was paired with Rubins or Sandin or Dermott, it seemed like Holl knows he can’t let his partner expose and also stop gambling as much.
Overall, I think Holl plays a safer game away from Muzzin.

I said it last year when things were going well but Holl shouldn’t be given the free reign to join the rush and pinch and free wheel to the extent that he does. He’s not a Jeff Petry do it all QB and he’s more way more reliable on the defensive end when playing within his limits, focusing on defense and using his length to disrupt and making those simple plays well. There’s no reason for him to lead to rush or to roam out of position like a rover on a pinch play or do a lot of those offensive extras.

 

[jaric1862]

They need a true #4

 

[BertCorbeau]

Holl was very good at understanding his limitations and playing to his strengths in the previous couple of seasons .. Using his size/reach, realizing he's not a fast player, and making smart decisions with the puck.

He's really making poor decisions out there and is having a hard time. And Muzzin isn't fast enough to cover his mistakes (and yes Muzzin has had his issues this year as well, age is starting to catch up with him).

I was never sold on him as a long term option, always thought of him as a #5 .. But he provided great value for awhile.

 

[Stephen]

Holl was very good at understanding his limitations and playing to his strengths in the previous couple of seasons .. Using his size/reach, realizing he's not a fast player, and making smart decisions with the puck.

He's really making poor decisions out there and is having a hard time. And Muzzin isn't fast enough to cover his mistakes (and yes Muzzin has had his issues this year as well, age is starting to catch up with him).

I was never sold on him as a long term option, always thought of him as a #5 .. But he provided great value for awhile.

I think it's just a case of a guy trying to do too much. Holl is either not understanding his limitations or getting overly confident and playing beyond his abilities by really forcing plays he shouldn't be making. He did that a bit last year too but also had those unreal stretches where he looked like a legit top 3 defenseman.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

There is a reason why Babcock didn't like him, for someone who had worked with some of the best defensemen over the years clearly knows what he was doing by sending Holl down. Meh though, he is still serviceable D for the bottom teams that aren't willing to spend too much money for the depth guys.

 

[Carltons Cup]

Unfortunately, we're stuck watching more of him until either Dermott or Sandin return to the lineup.

If he doesn't get scratched when the D get healthy, then we'll know that Keefe has a love affair with Holl.

 

[Notsince67]

I think it's just a case of a guy trying to do too much. Holl is either not understanding his limitations or getting overly confident and playing beyond his abilities by really forcing plays he shouldn't be making. He did that a bit last year too but also had those unreal stretches where he looked like a legit top 3 defenseman.

When he keeps things simple, he is competent. When he starts believing he is good and moves away from that, he is distracted and slow.

 

[saltming]

The guy was a long shot to make the NHL. Disappointed? No but he should be moved down the lineup. #6 and he's fine.

 

[Wendelstache]

Don't mind him being the 7th D but when you are playing a guy who has average skillset with the tendency to be disengage ... you are just asking for trouble.

Nothing against Holl but he has no business playing 20+ min a game.

 

[Metroid]

jinx thread

 

[ACC1224]

My disappointment isn't with Holl, he's meeting expectations.
The disappointment is with the coaching staff playing him over his head for as long as they have.

 

[Dreakmur]

My disappointment isn't with Holl, he's meeting expectations.
The disappointment is with the coaching staff playing him over his head for as long as they have.

Pretty much this. There’s no reason to be upset with a player for being what he is.

With the exception of a dozen games in the bubble, he hasn’t been more than a #5 getting carried by an elite partner.