July 1st - Free Agent Extravaganza Part III

[Zil]

The reality is, and it's hard to disupute this, that Klein is much more like Stralman while MDZ is more like Moore... Different types of defensemen...

Please back up your statement with something other than more opinions.

Obviously, Moore is not as good as Klein in specific circumstances, but when you can realistically see that our choice was either MDZ or Moore as a Defensive puck mover, and that we moved one of those two for a stable guy to pair with the one that was kept, you realize that comparing Corsi to those two different types of players is really apples to oranges... this brings me to my next point:

No it's not. Your ideas on how players work together are demonstrably incorrect. Ideally every single player will post a strong corsi. There are more ways to affect the number than just breakout passing and shot generation. Plenty of players post strong corsi numbers on the back of shot suppression. That usually means strong neutral zone defense to prevent the opposition from carrying the puck into your zone. Unfortunately Klein's just bad at almost everything, whereas Del Zotto actually offers a few bright spots.

Corsi, while INCREDIBLY USEFUL, is somewhat, if not mostly dependent (emphasis for mostly regarding defense) on linemates and defensive partners... McD posts very good Corsi scores... but what happens when you put him with MDZ (excluding the fact that they are both left handed)... or even better... what happens when you pair Staal with Girardi? Possession goes down the toilet, and for good reason.. Neither of those players are possession-driven defensemen... simple as that... That's the reason McD is paired with G, why Staal was paired with Stralman, why Moore was paired with KLEIN, and not a RHD version of MDZ

You're clearly don't understand or even look at corsi. If you looked at McDonagh's raw corsi from last season you'd see it's unimpressive. Staal actually posted a much higher corsi than McDonagh last year. Does that mean advanced metrics think Staal's better than McDonagh? Not in the slightest because Girardi drags McDonagh down, while Stralman boosts Staal up. The reason possession goes "down the toilet" when pairing Staal and Girardi is that Staal's not as good as McDonagh and carrying Girardi is a monumental task.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/dashboard?players=125,135,124,141

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Klein had the best CF% and FF% of any regular Rangers skater in the playoffs. While playing with John Moore.

I really don't understand everyone ******** on him. No, he's not a viable top-4 defender, but he's perfectly adequate in a third pairing role. Having poor possession stats doesn't mean a player is bad. Possession is incredibly important, but it is not the only part of hockey.

 

[Zil]

Klein had the best CF% and FF% of any regular Rangers skater in the playoffs. While playing with John Moore.

This has been hashed and re-hashed, but Klein put up those numbers while playing the most incredibly sheltered minutes possible both in terms of opposition and zone starts. He went from starting a little over half his regular season shifts in the offensive zone up to 63% in the playoffs.

I really don't understand everyone ******** on him. No, he's not a viable top-4 defender, but he's perfectly adequate in a third pairing role. Having poor possession stats doesn't mean a player is bad. Possession is incredibly important, but it is not the only part of hockey.

He's a stay at home defender so there's not much else to judge him on. He's not going to put up points. He's bad at both generating and suppressing even strength shots. It's the suppression that's the key. If he were an excellent neutral zone defender who forced a lot of dump ins, then I'd look at him in a more favorable light, but he's not. Basically the only thing he does well is kill penalties. For that, he's getting a $2.9 million cap hit over the next four seasons. You expect more for that kind of money than lousy third pairing minutes.

This article is about Orpik, but a lot of the points transfer to Klein: http://www.mc79hockey.com/2014/07/orpik-niskanen-joe-morgan-and-the-engine-room/

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

This has been hashed and re-hashed, but Klein put up those numbers while playing the most incredibly sheltered minutes possible both in terms of opposition and zone starts. He went from starting a little over half his regular season shifts in the offensive zone up to 63% in the playoffs.



He's a stay at home defender so there's not much else to judge him on. He's not going to put up points. He's bad at both generating and suppressing even strength shots. It's the suppression that's the key. If he were an excellent neutral zone defender who forced a lot of dump ins, then I'd look at him in a more favorable light, but he's not. Basically the only thing he does well is kill penalties. For that, he's getting a $2.9 million cap hit over the next four seasons. You expect more for that kind of money than lousy third pairing minutes.

This article is about Orpik, but a lot of the points transfer to Klein: http://www.mc79hockey.com/2014/07/orpik-niskanen-joe-morgan-and-the-engine-room/

Well, then he plays sheltered minutes and puts up good possession numbers. I don't see much of a problem here. $2.9M is a pretty mundane cap hit, which is easily movable, in any case. I don't mind him at all as a stop gap until hopefully McIlrath and/or Allen make the team.

 

[Kakko]

It would be smart for the Rangers to ditch Nash after scoring 3 goals on 83 shots in the playoffs, just like it was smart for Boston to ditch Seguin after scoring 1 goal on 70 shots. In that it wouldn't be smart at all.

When you continue to generate shots, they start going in.

Look at this group of playoff chokers. Ugh. Who would want any of those players?

Literally this x100000000

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Literally this x100000000

Yes

Trading Nash now would be a horrendous decision

Regarding the Ribeiro rumour, I'd guess 1 year, $1.5M. On paper, he's a good replacement for Richards. I'm worried about his life style, though, especially in NY.

Kreider-Stepan-St. Louis
Hagelin-Ribeiro-Nash
Miller-Brassard-Pouliot
Glass-Moore-Fast

 

[Kakko]

Yes

Trading Nash now would be a horrendous decision

Regarding the Ribeiro rumour, I'd guess 1 year, $1.5M. On paper, he's a good replacement for Richards. I'm worried about his life style, though, especially in NY.

Kreider-Stepan-St. Louis
Hagelin-Ribeiro-Nash
Miller-Brassard-Pouliot
Glass-Moore-Fast

You are so smart

 

[Zil]

Well, then he plays sheltered minutes and puts up good possession numbers. I don't see much of a problem here. $2.9M is a pretty mundane cap hit, which is easily movable, in any case. I don't mind him at all as a stop gap until hopefully McIlrath and/or Allen make the team.

Except they can't do that during the regular season without killing the top four. His regular season numbers will continue to be awful. I agree that he's probably gone sooner than later though.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Was he snake bitten last year too? Trying to dance around defenders like it's an All-Star game isn't being snakebitten.

Why shouldn't people hate him? Because he tried? Because he back-checks? What is this, ****ing pee-wee?...

**** his effort, go score a ****ing goal you bum. This guy's entire career has been nothing but excuses.

****ing A right! Well said! Might I add he skates like a drunk giraffe? Maybe if we got him a center who's faster and stronger on the puck and doesn't throw dying quail passes across the ice he'd improve also.

 

[Kakko]

****ing A right! Well said! Might I add he skates like a drunk giraffe? Maybe if we got him a center who's faster and stronger on the puck and doesn't throw dying quail passes across the ice he'd improve also.

You hate Stepan and Nash?

Anyone else?

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

You hate Stepan and Nash?

Anyone else?

Since when is criticizing 2 players being a hater?

 

[Kakko]

Since when is criticizing 2 players being a hater?

Stepan put up 57 points last year

You say he is slow, weak, and throws 'dying quail passes'


That's not criticism

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Stepan put up 57 points last year

You say he is slow, weak, and throws 'dying quail passes'


That's not criticism

It's being a smart ass, but the point remains it doesn't make me a hater.

 

[MAYO]

What I'd like to know is how we sign Glass at 1.45 a year while the ducks land Heatley at 1.0 a year ?!?

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

What I'd like to know is how we sign Glass at 1.45 a year while the ducks land Heatley at 1.0 a year ?!?

Because Teflon always shoots his load on useless 4th line goons on July 1st every year.

 

[NikC]

Rangers lost 35g and 86p with Richards and Populist leaving...

That's all being replaced from within?

Not good for a team that's not consistent offensively...

Throwing money at 4th liners is baffling.
)
We let players like Weise walk...

 

[MAYO]

I don't see us even making the playoffs as we stand. Once we get done signing our remaining free agents the only moves left will be via trade. Then it'll be like exchanging 4 quarters for a buck, I just can't see us icing an equivalent team let alone a better team to achieve what we fell short of last season.

 

[frisland]

We let players like Weise walk...

Torts ran him off two separate teams, you cant blame sather for weise leaving (and i like to blame sather for most everything)

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Yet you anti-stat people make fun of Blue Blooded when he posts his "spiderwebs" breaking down how players fare in each individual facet of play.



How so? If Klein's clearly superior then he should do something really well in comparison to MDZ. Does he create shots for his teammates? Does he suppress shots from the opposition? Does he put up points or score goals? Is he a powerplay specialist? Show me one statistically significant metric at which Klein excels.

How about the "not running around like a headless chicken" metric? How about, not getting caught behind the net staring at his man alone in the slot once per game, not getting caught chasing a player 80 feet across the ice when he should have let his partner handle the assignment?

I am perfectly good with a lot of advanced stats (I have a few issues with how they are used but generally think they make sense) but tere are absolutely some things that do not always emerge statistically.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

If the Rangers sign dirtbag Ribeiro I may need a timeout. That's how you piss in a man's Cheerios on a beautiful summer Friday.

 

[Fletch]

Nash played about 100 times better in the playoffs than he did in the regular season.

If anything his playoffs made me feel much more confident about him going into next season than I was before.

He was engaged, he was going to the net, he was going to the dirty areas that he wouldn't in the regular season.

I just hope he brings that passion next year.

I didn't see this. I saw a guy go towards his net and use his reach to get off weak shot instead of fighting inside and getting off a stronger shot. I saw him go into dirty areas. It was controlled. He did well with a defender hanging on him. He seems to not mind getting pushed, but he really doesn't to leave himself open to get hit hard. Can't blame him, but sometimes that receiver does have to go over the middle to make a catch, knowing he's going to get hit. Nash is the guy who hears footsteps and doesn't make the catch.

Was Nash better in the playoffs? I don't know...if regular season Nash (26 goals in 65 games) showed up in the Finals, I think the Rangers find that extra goal and have a chance against LA. Glad he backchecked; should be doing that anyways, but when he didn't, there still was defensive backup, center backup and last, but not least, Lundqvist. Would have like to have seen some meaningful goals. Hopefully he gets another chance next season to have his breakout playoff series.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I didn't see this. I saw a guy go towards his net and use his reach to get off weak shot instead of fighting inside and getting off a stronger shot. I saw him go into dirty areas. It was controlled. He did well with a defender hanging on him. He seems to not mind getting pushed, but he really doesn't to leave himself open to get hit hard. Can't blame him, but sometimes that receiver does have to go over the middle to make a catch, knowing he's going to get hit. Nash is the guy who hears footsteps and doesn't make the catch.

Was Nash better in the playoffs? I don't know...if regular season Nash (26 goals in 65 games) showed up in the Finals, I think the Rangers find that extra goal and have a chance against LA. Glad he backchecked; should be doing that anyways, but when he didn't, there still was defensive backup, center backup and last, but not least, Lundqvist. Would have like to have seen some meaningful goals. Hopefully he gets another chance next season to have his breakout playoff series.

Agreed.

I dont know how to adequately explain it, but Nash just looks so uncoordinated when he tries to chase down a puck in a dirty area of the ice. As he approaches the boards its almost as if his legs and his arms are out of sync. Its very strange. I think its a byproduct of what you said above about relying too much on reach and not enough on battling with body position.

Im not sure if its something hes never been adequately taught because hes so good on the rush, or if its a result of the concussion. Whatever it is, he needs to fix it if he wants to contribute more in the playoffs.

 

[Fletch]

How about the "not running around like a headless chicken" metric? How about, not getting caught behind the net staring at his man alone in the slot once per game, not getting caught chasing a player 80 feet across the ice when he should have let his partner handle the assignment?

I am perfectly good with a lot of advanced stats (I have a few issues with how they are used but generally think they make sense) but tere are absolutely some things that do not always emerge statistically.

Stats are a tool, but I would think the better coaches do not get bogged down in them too much and trust their eyes, which becomes their gut and instincts (not saying they are used; just saying they aren't drawing final conclusions from them and are still out there on the ice in practice, without a piece of paper). They should be saying the same thing as the stats. The stats do not tell you why there is problem or how to correct it. It's easy to see the other team is dominating possession. Now what? Looks like XYZ isn't moving the puck fast enough, or the opposition needs to be slowed somehow on the forecheck, or the neutral zone.

 

[Ghost of jas]

If the Rangers sign dirtbag Ribeiro I may need a timeout. That's how you piss in a man's Cheerios on a beautiful summer Friday.

Exactly...signing Ribiero has disaster written all over it.

 

[Trainmman]

Heard it here first. Take it as you want it. I have source that Mike Ribeiro is set to go to the New York Rangers.

Other teams were Nashville and Ottawa. I will be back on this thread when this will get done.

I'd be PERFECTLY fine with this move.

He is probably good for 90% of Richards' point output. Maybe more if his head is on right.