MatthewMurdock
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JT Miller vs Ryan Kesler
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Peen
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Two ends of the rink at ES. Kesler's give a shit while defending in transition and responsibility in his own end was something Miller could only dream of. Miller, obviously, levels above Kesler as a playmaker.
Kesler was a contributor on one of the best powerplays in the league, albeit in a completely different role. I think at their peak, you can say they were both elite and dangerous on the PP in their respective PP roles.
I can't get past the defensive responsibility problems with Miller sometimes. Voting Kesler, but it's close.
Kesler was a contributor on one of the best powerplays in the league, albeit in a completely different role. I think at their peak, you can say they were both elite and dangerous on the PP in their respective PP roles.
I can't get past the defensive responsibility problems with Miller sometimes. Voting Kesler, but it's close.
Scholarships
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Ryan Kesler.
JT Miller placing 9th in scoring vs Kesler placing 15th doesn't bridge the gap between Kesler's Selke performance that year
JT Miller placing 9th in scoring vs Kesler placing 15th doesn't bridge the gap between Kesler's Selke performance that year
Cornwallace
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Kesler hands down on defense, but Miller is considerably better offensively.
Miller led the team in scoring by 31 points while Kesler trailed that teams leading scorer by 31.
I think Miller is better suited for a 1C/1A role while Kesler was an ideal 2C/1B.
Miller led the team in scoring by 31 points while Kesler trailed that teams leading scorer by 31.
I think Miller is better suited for a 1C/1A role while Kesler was an ideal 2C/1B.
Pastor Of Muppetz
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When all is said and done, Miller is going to blow Kesler's point totals out of the water...
I dont get this Kesler 'he gave a shit' garbage....I dont know how many years I watched him selfishly shoot the puck from low % plays without properly utilizing his line mates....I think some posters here have a selective memory when it comes to Kesler.
Having said that, I dont think i've ever seen a more dominating performance by a single Canuck player, than Kesler 's in the Nashville series in 2011...
(on an added note..RK does not deserve a ROH Canuck tribute).
I dont get this Kesler 'he gave a shit' garbage....I dont know how many years I watched him selfishly shoot the puck from low % plays without properly utilizing his line mates....I think some posters here have a selective memory when it comes to Kesler.
Having said that, I dont think i've ever seen a more dominating performance by a single Canuck player, than Kesler 's in the Nashville series in 2011...
(on an added note..RK does not deserve a ROH Canuck tribute).
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MatthewMurdock
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If Kesler played with a player of Pettersson's ilk at even strength would you think differently?
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We get it. Kesler wasn’t a Sir Jim Benning pickup.
Cornwallace
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I doubt it.
He was amazing at what he did, but he wasn't able to drive an offense or use his teammates as well as Miller.
Peen
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No one is debating the point totals. Miller is a far better playmaker and has the puck on his stick looking to create on the PP as well. Kesler was limited in that sense. He was north south and was definitely tunnel visioned.
Maybe the only selective memory stuff is the degree to which he was dominant defensively because I think people leave out the Malhotra line roles in soaking some of the tough minutes away. It wasn’t ALL Kes, and he also had an insane amount of competent defensemen behind him.
Miller hasn’t had a Malhotra behind him and he’s had morons on his backend.
Doesn’t change some of the individual shortcomings of Miller defensively, both in zone and in transition whereas Kesler was very good at those things
Miller. Not by a big margin buts it's pretty damn clear.
There's no scenario where Kes separates himself from his teammates like what JT just did. The gap between Miller and the rest of the forwards was massive. He was dominant, a top 5 scoring center in the league, with the least amount of help.
If Boeser and EP hadn't had such bad seasons, JT could have very likely challenged the all time Canucks scoring record.
There's no scenario where Kes separates himself from his teammates like what JT just did. The gap between Miller and the rest of the forwards was massive. He was dominant, a top 5 scoring center in the league, with the least amount of help.
If Boeser and EP hadn't had such bad seasons, JT could have very likely challenged the all time Canucks scoring record.
MatthewMurdock
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I disagree, Kesler had some really good stretches at even strength with the Sedins' as line mates as well as Sundin and Demitra.
Kesler gets a bad rep for not using his linemates, hilariously in 2009/2010 Kesler was 15th in the entire NHL in even strength assists mainly playing with Raymond and Samuelsson, both players didn't have career years for no reason.
I believe if Kesler played with good even strength line mates his production would go up unquestionably.
Pastor Of Muppetz
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I agree that he was a dominant defensive player...and I should take that more into into consideration...
He's just one player that to me ..just leaves a bad legacy...Every time i see him..It bugs me.
Given the choice of Miller or Kesler..I'd take Miller.
Cornwallace
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Kesler had some amazing stretches but was never capable of putting up a season like Miller just had offensively.
He was a triggerman on a top powerplay and got secondary defensive match ups from opposing teams because they were more concerned about stopping the Sedins.
I don't think cherrypicking by far Kesler's best season for assists proves he can use teammates at the same level as Miller either. On the flipside, outside of that one season he was more of a 30ish assist center.
The reason Kesler didn't get better linemates is because he was on the 2nd line. The better teammates were on the top line and juicing his numbers on the powerplay.
MatthewMurdock
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Ryan Kesler has done much more to help bring a championship to Vancouver than JT Miller ever will. Kesler signed a sweetheart deal to help the team during it's best run ever even publicly stating he took less money to stay in Vancouver.
Miller will likely leave the same way Kesler left but just doesn't have a NTC. Kesler was drafted here, graduated through our minor league system worked himself up from a 4th liner to 2nd in the league in goals here, took less money to play here and worked his ass off here. Give me Kesler's legacy in Vancouver over JT Miller's any day of the week.
MatthewMurdock
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You would have a point of Kesler was some skilled 2c but he was a perineal Selke candidate. If you remember correctly the Sedins throughout their primes had the highest offensive zone start% I've ever seen. Meaning Kesler the teams primary shutdown centre was tasked with other teams best players in defensive usage. That changed when Malhotra got here, but Kesler was still mainly going up against other teams best players.
This season JT Miller finished 21st in even strength scoring primary in an offensive role with better linemates where as in 2010 Kesler finished 29th in even strength scoring in tough deployment as a teams shutdown centre.
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
Kesler also was tasked on shutting down top line forwards and was regularly on the shutdown line, which hurt his offensive output. He regularly had more defensize zone starts than offensize zone starts. He is also a significantly better faceoff man than Miller.
Kesler is capable of using his linemates, he scored 50 assists playing with Mason Raymond and Mikael Samuelsson. He also lead the team in PP Scoring on the second unit without even playing with the Sedins. 2009-10 Kesler is the best version of Kesler and I would take that version over the won who scored 40 goals and won the selke the following year.
Kesler in his whole tenure lacked a playmaker who would dish him the puck to score. He was shoot first player, who had decent playmaking skills. A selke level machine who never gave up and gave his body on the line year after year. He would be over PPG ala Mike Richards in Philly with better linemates.
I will take Kesler over Miller any day.
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Funny enough, Kesler really needed a playmaker with grit like Miller on this line in 2011. Holy hell they would thrived well together making the Sedins lives more easier during that special run.
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
Kesler was a first line center at his peak.
in 2011, we had two first line centers.
MatthewMurdock
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Kesler was easily a first line centre from 2009/2011. He was up there with Kopitar and Toews and ahead of Bergeron at the time. His play style led to his body breaking down so he went from Toews/Bergeron caliber to more of a Cirelli, JEE, Danault level 2c which is still a great player not the same.
Mike Richards and Kesler played the game the right way, I found 2009/2014 to be the most fun hockey I've ever watched. A great balance of grit and skill, it probably has something to do with the Canucks not being relevant for the last while but I found the entire NHL more interesting then.
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
Yes, that is what I was saying.
Mike Richards in Philly is a very close comparable with Kesler.
Kesler showed what he was capable of with shutting down Toews in 2011, and the only time Toews ever scored was when Kesler was on the bench.
Kesler will always be one of my favourite Canucks of all time (along with Bure).
Cornwallace
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You're not actually refuting anything I've said and don't seem to actually be comprehending what I've said either.
I clearly said Kesler was an ideal 2c/1b center, which was the main role he had in Vancouver. I also clearly said that he's hands down the better defensive player between him and Miller.
I'm not sure why you seem to think it's some egregious sin to say Miller is the better offensive player between the two of them. Miller gets better linemates because he plays on the first line against other teams top defensive match ups. Kesler played with lesser linemates but had the benefit of playing behind the Sedins at even strength.
This better linemates argument is kind of flawed too. Miller carried a 1st line with slumping linemates for huge portions of last season. There's a reason he finished with 31 more points than either of his most common linemates.
Miller has a career average of .71 ppg compared to Keslers career average of .57 ppg. It seems pretty likely that Miller is going to increase that gap in offensive production as well. On top of that in Kesler's best two offensive seasons he was involved with roughly 28% of the teams goals either season. This past season Miller was involved with a staggering 40% of the teams goals... You can cherrypick individual stats, argue linemates, or deployment but it doesn't change the fact that Kesler has never had an offensive season like Miller just had.
At the end of the day we're comparing two players that are better suited for different roles.
It's hands down Miller. His "better linemates" were just dragged around by JT's coattails. Without JT, the nucks have a historically bad offensive season. Maybe Hughes alone cracks 60 points last year.
Keslers highest scoring season is lower than Millers worst as a Canuck. JT is more than capable of being an all situations player on a well run team, and already is really.
Many here are desperate to downplay JT's importance (MVP of this team without question) to stomach better a potential trade.
Keslers highest scoring season is lower than Millers worst as a Canuck. JT is more than capable of being an all situations player on a well run team, and already is really.
Many here are desperate to downplay JT's importance (MVP of this team without question) to stomach better a potential trade.
If the rumour of Kesler sleeping with Schneider's wife is true, then I'll go with Miller.
Lots of great arguments on both sides and I'll have to admit that I might need to reconsider my stance.
On the one hand, Kesler was MUCH better defensively than Miller. The gap between Kesler and Miller's defensive abilities exceed the gap between Miller's and Kesler's offensive abilities and production. Both guys were great on special teams (PK and PP), and both guys knew how to play physical and stand up for teammates. However, Miller can play all three forward positions. Kesler can play right wing but is *clearly* more comfortable as a center. On the other hand, Kesler knew how to elevate his game when it mattered most. That series against Nashville in 2011 was the stuff of legends on Kesler's part. However, Miller was also quite good for us in the bubble even if he didn't go "beast mode" like 2011 Nashville Kesler.
For me though, the tiebreaker will have to come down to intangibles. Miller is a well known and renowned locker room leader that was clearly pulling the guys through during the 60 games of last season. Kesler was also an important member of our locker room as well. However, if the rumours of Kesler sleeping with Schneider's wife are true, then I'll have to go with Miller here.
Lots of great arguments on both sides and I'll have to admit that I might need to reconsider my stance.
On the one hand, Kesler was MUCH better defensively than Miller. The gap between Kesler and Miller's defensive abilities exceed the gap between Miller's and Kesler's offensive abilities and production. Both guys were great on special teams (PK and PP), and both guys knew how to play physical and stand up for teammates. However, Miller can play all three forward positions. Kesler can play right wing but is *clearly* more comfortable as a center. On the other hand, Kesler knew how to elevate his game when it mattered most. That series against Nashville in 2011 was the stuff of legends on Kesler's part. However, Miller was also quite good for us in the bubble even if he didn't go "beast mode" like 2011 Nashville Kesler.
For me though, the tiebreaker will have to come down to intangibles. Miller is a well known and renowned locker room leader that was clearly pulling the guys through during the 60 games of last season. Kesler was also an important member of our locker room as well. However, if the rumours of Kesler sleeping with Schneider's wife are true, then I'll have to go with Miller here.
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